Vitamin A Toxic?

[NatUK]

He also mentioned green peas causing problems. Green peas are high in lutein/zeaxahanthin. I found that bit interesting because I had experienced something very similar to what he describes when I ate lots of green peas. My fingers looked burned. Unusal reaction for me but I don't think it was related to vitamin A because I never had such sumptoms from retinol, natural or suplemental. Grant needed only a handful of green peas, I think he is super sensitive to some plant allergens, maybe specific carotenoids or other chemicals

But why the sudden onset at 52?
and also other people seem to be having similar health changes with the low/no vit a diet also.

 

[NatUK]

It shouldn’t work that way since it is fat soluble and stores are controlled by the liver. So it takes time to accumulate, and if you are in a low state like he should be now from years on a low diet he would be able to take some and see a slow ramp in symptoms.

Im not sure we fully understand the mechanisms and that is part of the exploration of his theories/findings/ebooks

 

[somuch4food]

But why the sudden onset at 52?
and also other people seem to be having similar health changes with the low/no vit a diet also.

It was not sudden at all. It started with less severe symptoms and got really severe when he tried to do everything "healthy" in an attempt to cure himself.

 

[truegrit]

Guys, I don't think the one thread, which boils down to anecdote and a heterodox hypothesis, is now the official preponderance of evidence required to overturn Ray's considerable research into this vitamin.

Is it an unsaturated compound? Yes.

Is ad libitum consumption probably risky? Yes.

Does there seem to be a delicate balance phenomenon involved in the interplay between thyroid hormone, steroid synthesis, and the other fat solubles? Yes.

Is this a reason to denounce it resoundingly? No, probably not.

Cooler heads need to prevail on this vitamin A thing.

 

[Wahmof10]

Would you say topical vitamin A is different?

 

[truegrit]

Would you say topical vitamin A is different?

I think it's a safer means of ingesting vitamin A. I don't think it fundamentally changes vitamin A's function or action, no.

I think it would be fair to say that vitamin A, of the fat solubles, is by far the easiest one to get wrong or have supplementation go awry—thus its bad rap.

I don't think it's overtly toxic though.

 

[Birdie]

From Ray Peat:

Between the first and second world wars, cod liver oil was recommended as a vitamin supplement, at first as a source of vitamin A, and later as a source of vitamins A and D. But in the late 1940s, experimenters used it as the main fat in dogs' diet, and found that they all died from cancer, while the dogs on a standard diet had only a 5% cancer mortality. That sort of information and the availability of synthetic vitamins led to the decreased use of cod liver oil.

Fats and degeneration

 

[magnesiumania]

We definitly need some. Retinol is bound to EVERY Opsin (light receptors) in our bodies, so with a deficiency you cant really handle light very well and circadian biology is disrupted. Also retinol is needed to activate VDR receptors. Most cod liver oil are too processed but brands like Rositas make quality cod liver oil (no im not selling a product). My personal experience is that it gives me a boost even after about a year of taking it.

 

[magnesiumania]

According to Jack Kruse vit A and D are linked on the skin. Morley Robbins suggest 10:1 A to D as the ideal ratio.

“even modest amounts of vitamin D, whether provided by UV-light or in the diet, decrease liver stores of vitamin A; when the doses of D are larger, they decrease plasma levels of A as well. This suggests that vitamin D increases the need for and turnover of vitamin A.” Chris Masterjohn

These are generally people i trust. I think cases of toxicity are from supplements, not food sources.

 

[Pet Peeve]

From Ray Peat:

Between the first and second world wars, cod liver oil was recommended as a vitamin supplement, at first as a source of vitamin A, and later as a source of vitamins A and D. But in the late 1940s, experimenters used it as the main fat in dogs' diet, and found that they all died from cancer, while the dogs on a standard diet had only a 5% cancer mortality. That sort of information and the availability of synthetic vitamins led to the decreased use of cod liver oil.

Fats and degeneration

- Kim Schuette, a WAPF board member and nutritionist associated with promotion of FCLO, died earlier this week, Christmas day, at age 59. She is one of three WAPF-associated individuals who have died of glioblastoma brain cancer.

—Cherie Calvert, who was a founding member of the WAPF board, died in late November of breast cancer; she was 63. Calvert wasn’t known to have recommended or taken the FCLO, but had remained with the board as it fought off demands that it step back from its enthusiastic endorsement of the Green Pasture product.

—Jessica Earle was a long-time WAPF enthusiast and mother, who died last month at age 44, also of glioblastoma stage IV. She was unusual in that she lived for six years with the brain cancer, apparently benefiting from treatment by a prominent alternative practitioner. She had a blog chronicling her illness and sought funds to help defray costs of her treatment.

—Eoin Miller, a WAPF chapter leader in Ireland, died in late 2017 from liver cancer. He was a GAPS practitioner and exercise scientist, and was only 34. He left behind a wife and young child. He promoted FCLO and is understood to have taken it.

—Katherine Czapp, who had been editor for the WAPF journal Wise Traditions, died in late 2016 at age 60. She died of a type of colorectal cancer, as did her husband about a year before she did. Both were understood to have been users of FCLO

—Carol Esche, a nurse and a former board member of WAPF, died in late 2016 of metastatic breast cancer. It’s not known if she took FCLO. She was 59.

—Lauren Feder Haarpaintner, the author of a book on natural pregnancy, died in late 2015 of bone cancer at age 55. She was understood to have promoted FCLO on her web site.

—Chris Decker was a gifted naturopath, who was diagnosed in 2014 with a strange abdominal cancer that was so fast and vicious that oncologists couldn’t figure out what was going on. In early 2015, she pleaded for donations on her Facebook page: “As far as the MDs are concerned, the prognosis is pretty dismal. There is however, an enormous amount that natural medicine can do, and I’m seeing two wonderful cancer specialists.

 

[InChristAlone]

- Kim Schuette, a WAPF board member and nutritionist associated with promotion of FCLO, died earlier this week, Christmas day, at age 59. She is one of three WAPF-associated individuals who have died of glioblastoma brain cancer.

—Cherie Calvert, who was a founding member of the WAPF board, died in late November of breast cancer; she was 63. Calvert wasn’t known to have recommended or taken the FCLO, but had remained with the board as it fought off demands that it step back from its enthusiastic endorsement of the Green Pasture product.

—Jessica Earle was a long-time WAPF enthusiast and mother, who died last month at age 44, also of glioblastoma stage IV. She was unusual in that she lived for six years with the brain cancer, apparently benefiting from treatment by a prominent alternative practitioner. She had a blog chronicling her illness and sought funds to help defray costs of her treatment.

—Eoin Miller, a WAPF chapter leader in Ireland, died in late 2017 from liver cancer. He was a GAPS practitioner and exercise scientist, and was only 34. He left behind a wife and young child. He promoted FCLO and is understood to have taken it.

—Katherine Czapp, who had been editor for the WAPF journal Wise Traditions, died in late 2016 at age 60. She died of a type of colorectal cancer, as did her husband about a year before she did. Both were understood to have been users of FCLO

—Carol Esche, a nurse and a former board member of WAPF, died in late 2016 of metastatic breast cancer. It’s not known if she took FCLO. She was 59.

—Lauren Feder Haarpaintner, the author of a book on natural pregnancy, died in late 2015 of bone cancer at age 55. She was understood to have promoted FCLO on her web site.

—Chris Decker was a gifted naturopath, who was diagnosed in 2014 with a strange abdominal cancer that was so fast and vicious that oncologists couldn’t figure out what was going on. In early 2015, she pleaded for donations on her Facebook page: “As far as the MDs are concerned, the prognosis is pretty dismal. There is however, an enormous amount that natural medicine can do, and I’m seeing two wonderful cancer specialists.

And Dr. Ron who died of congestive heart failure after consuming 2 tablespoons of fermented cod liver oil a day.

Also Rami Nagel who wrote "cure tooth decay" died of cancer too.

 

[LiveWire]

- Kim Schuette, a WAPF board member and nutritionist associated with promotion of FCLO, died earlier this week, Christmas day, at age 59. She is one of three WAPF-associated individuals who have died of glioblastoma brain cancer.

—Cherie Calvert, who was a founding member of the WAPF board, died in late November of breast cancer; she was 63. Calvert wasn’t known to have recommended or taken the FCLO, but had remained with the board as it fought off demands that it step back from its enthusiastic endorsement of the Green Pasture product.

—Jessica Earle was a long-time WAPF enthusiast and mother, who died last month at age 44, also of glioblastoma stage IV. She was unusual in that she lived for six years with the brain cancer, apparently benefiting from treatment by a prominent alternative practitioner. She had a blog chronicling her illness and sought funds to help defray costs of her treatment.

—Eoin Miller, a WAPF chapter leader in Ireland, died in late 2017 from liver cancer. He was a GAPS practitioner and exercise scientist, and was only 34. He left behind a wife and young child. He promoted FCLO and is understood to have taken it.

—Katherine Czapp, who had been editor for the WAPF journal Wise Traditions, died in late 2016 at age 60. She died of a type of colorectal cancer, as did her husband about a year before she did. Both were understood to have been users of FCLO

—Carol Esche, a nurse and a former board member of WAPF, died in late 2016 of metastatic breast cancer. It’s not known if she took FCLO. She was 59.

—Lauren Feder Haarpaintner, the author of a book on natural pregnancy, died in late 2015 of bone cancer at age 55. She was understood to have promoted FCLO on her web site.

—Chris Decker was a gifted naturopath, who was diagnosed in 2014 with a strange abdominal cancer that was so fast and vicious that oncologists couldn’t figure out what was going on. In early 2015, she pleaded for donations on her Facebook page: “As far as the MDs are concerned, the prognosis is pretty dismal. There is however, an enormous amount that natural medicine can do, and I’m seeing two wonderful cancer specialists.

Holy crap they are dropping like flies

 

[managing]

According to Jack Kruse vit A and D are linked on the skin. Morley Robbins suggest 10:1 A to D as the ideal ratio.

“even modest amounts of vitamin D, whether provided by UV-light or in the diet, decrease liver stores of vitamin A; when the doses of D are larger, they decrease plasma levels of A as well. This suggests that vitamin D increases the need for and turnover of vitamin A.” Chris Masterjohn

These are generally people i trust. I think cases of toxicity are from supplements, not food sources.

THis is very interesting. What if one of the functions of Vit D is to keep too much Vit A from accumulating?

 

[magnesiumania]

Holy crap

This indicates oils arent meant to be fermented.

 

[LiveWire]

This indicates oils arent meant to be fermented.

From my basic chemistry knowledge, you can’t ferment without carbohydrates. Perhaps rot would be a more apropriate term.

 

[InChristAlone]

Chris Masterjohn has information pertaining to the FCLO, I can't remember the gist of it but he was refuting some of the anti-FCLO stuff, so we can't blame it ALL on the fact that it's been left to rot.

 

[magnesiumania]

Yes FCLO is basically rotten oil.

 

[Collden]

WAPF is just insanity. Merely following their most basic recommendations can easily get you into toxic amounts of Vitamin A. They think that everyone should get at least 10k IU from cod liver oil alone, on top of the dairy, eggs, liver and veggies they recommend you get daily. Note that 10k/day is considered the total maximal amount that anyone should get, even getting half this amount is associated with health risks such as osteoporosis. With WAPF guidelines you can easily get >30k per day which has shown potential to cause severe liver damage.

Whats worse is that they recommend that pregnant/nursing mothers, who actually are at the greatest risk of VA toxicity, should get 20 000 IU from cod liver oil alone! Hello birth defects.

Chris Masterjohn seems to have toned down his recommendations a lot and now says you should not get more than 10k IU per day from all sources. At the same time he has recent videos saying that you are likely to be deficient unless you get cod liver oil, eggs and liver on a daily basis, which is ridiculous. No one in the western world is vitamin A-deficient. There is literally no scientific evidence that you need more than 1500 IU or that increasing vitamin A intake beyond this has any health benefits (if anyone knows of any I'd like to see it). Chris knows this and instead has focused most of his writings on trying to debunk the literature showing harmful effects of vitamin A intakes well below the accepted toxicity limit.

 

[InChristAlone]

WAPF is just insanity. Following just their most basic recommendations can easily get you into toxic amounts of Vitamin A, they think that everyone should get at least 10k IU from cod liver oil alone, on top of the dairy, eggs, liver and veggies they recommend you get daily. Note that 10k/day is considered the total maximal amount that anyone should get, even getting half this amount is associated with health risks such as osteoporosis. With WAPF guidelines you can easily get >30k per day which has shown potential to cause severe liver damage.

Whats worse is that they recommend that pregnant/nursing mothers, who actually are at the greatest risk of VA toxicity, should get 20 000 IU from cod liver oil alone! Hello birth defects.

Chris Masterjohn seems to have toned down his recommendations a lot and now says you should not get more than 10k IU per day from all sources, at the same time he has recent videos saying that you are likely to be deficient unless you get cod liver oil, eggs and liver on a daily basis, which is ridiculous. No one in the western world is vitamin A-deficient. There is literally no scientific evidence that you need more than 1500 IU or that increasing vitamin A intake has any health benefits (if anyone knows of any I'd like to see it). Chris knows this and instead has focused most of his writings on trying to debunk the literature showing harmful effects of vitamin A intakes well below the accepted toxicity limit.

I agree, I so regret following WAPF with my second pregnancy. His baby teeth are extremely bad and will likely need extensive dental work. I also ended up with rapid decay. Vitamin A is NOT good for teeth. I wish I could warn people.

 

[Collden]

Yeah, I read one comment on Chris blog from a woman who'd been taking 25k IU cod liver oil for a while and subsequently fractured one of her teeth.

This is another video from Chris from last year. Kudos to Chris for being upfront about his health issues, but man it really looks like his mega VA dosing regimen is starting to get to him: