Vitamin A elimination diet for 10 years: RESULTS!

[LiveLaughLove]

It’s a bit of a tongue and cheek title, but true; I ate a low vitamin A diet due to my mom’s nutritionist education, which advocated for a functionally low vit A diet. This was not anti vitamin A, but the basic “magical” nonsense of plants vs animal.

I did eat raw broccoli, the occasional sweat potato dish around holidays, icecream on birthdays, eggs for breakfast, and I even ate liver once against my mom’s best wishes at a Luby’s, but otherwise, I struggled and did attain that apex dead-androgen hollow-souled state, hypogonadism! I’m here to tell ya, it works!

So, my diet looked like a few eggs for breakfast, tons of rice and beans, raw veggies, bread, coconut oil, random fruits, chicken, and a little lean beef each week. If we ate out I got a burger and doubled my red meat intake for the week.

I’m not blaming all my problems on low vitamin A, but I sure wish I had the vitamin A toxicity of all my friends who grew up eating tons of dairy fat, and all the saturated animal fat they desired, with the plentiful red meat and occasional organs.

After a few years post carnivore of high Dairy, I only improved. After hearing Ray’s explanation of metabolic function determining the vit A dose, I began adding idealabs Retinil at approx 5000mg a day, and recently upped it to 8-12000mg, in tandem with improved metabolism.

It’s completely unthoughtful to say that a nutrient that humans consumed in astronomically higher doses for thousands of years before our metabolic epidemic, is somehow a toxin — first saturated fat, then red meat, then dairy, then carbohydrate, now vitamins A and D.

Ray’s body of work on what vitamin A actually does, shows just how instrumental vitamin A deficiency was in giving me this sort of “pseudo cushings” or crohn’s high cortisol, insanely tanked androgen, high estrogen state I’ve been in for all of my twenties.

 

[Eberhardt]

I think its very hard to make any conclusions from this halfassed diet. Its not sounding very low A and beans, raw veggies and low protein? I think thats just a mess. I would also like to add that astronomical amounts of A historically is a probable bull**** statement. Except isolated instances it seems like most traditional hunter gatherer diets are so called deficient in vitamin A averaging at between 900 and 1900 IU a day according to anthropological and medical reserach the last 100 years or so. All very low especially compared to modern standards. And with no visible problems and no catharacts or libido problems.

Maybe looking into digestion? I am not saying that to be sardonic

 

[LiveLaughLove]

I think its very hard to make any conclusions from this halfassed diet. Its not sounding very low A and beans, raw veggies and low protein? I think thats just a mess. I would also like to add that astronomical amounts of A historically is a probable bull**** statement. Except isolated instances it seems like most traditional hunter gatherer diets are so called deficient in vitamin A averaging at between 900 and 1900 IU a day according to anthropological and medical reserach the last 100 years or so. All very low especially compared to modern standards.

I hoped I conveyed the Prevention of extreme conclusions on my end, with statements like:

“I’m not blaming all my problems on low vitamin A…” (I’m acutely aware that I didn’t consume near enough red meat, saturated fat, salt, calcium, easily digestible carbs, and a plethora of smaller issues like undigestible plants and plant proteins. If you don’t support beans and rice as major food sources, Fair enough, but that’s currently a big theme in the low vitamin A community).

and

“ a nutrient that humans consumed in astronomically higher doses…” (I can understand with this statement, how leaving out “than today,” could imply I’m not comparing to today’s standard…).

However, I’m not at all convinced that looking at evidence of hunter gatherer societies is at all useful in determining an optimal diet. And indeed, for the last few thousand years, agrarian societies consume WAY more vitamin A, than today’s western person, due to sources like liver and heart, which were consumed weekly, and dairy, which was consumed daily, by the lb.

My grandpa’s impoverished sharecropping family, had two milk cows providing approximately 7 gallons a day to a household of 3 adults and 6 children at any given moment (that accounts for about the rate of reared to nest leaving that each child stayed in the home). They also ate liver weekly. Idk about heart but I know heart roast was a weekly Sunday dish in Germanic Europe until 40 years ago, on top of highest dairy consumption and weekly liver/pate’s.

If you think the modern westerner eats anything comparable I guess there’s no further discussion to be had. Maybe beta carotene, which is what I guess you’re claiming kept my vitamin A levels not low, but in raw veggies, that’s not very digestible.

And with no visible problems and no catharacts or libido problems.

Literally the same for everyone consuming the aforementioned homesteader/agrarian diet, and that’s the crux of my whole argument against vitamin A toxicity. I’m not saying one can’t get vitamin A toxic from supplementing while hypothyroid and lacking vitamin E on top, but that’s a separate issue to the vitamin A toxicity imo, as Grant Genereux and Garrett Smith suppose. People are now even saying to stop eating liver and dairy!

Maybe looking into digestion? I am not saying that to be sardonic

Agreed, that’s another piece of the health puzzle, that ironically, I actually think the vitamin A toxicity crowd underplays when they feel better on their diet of choice (beans can indeed help with bile/estrogen detox, but that doesn’t mean that detoxing vitamin A is improving anything as they sometimes support).

I’m not saying you stand by all statements of the anti-vitamin A crowd, but that’s largely what I’m addressing.

 

[Eberhardt]

I hoped I conveyed the Prevention of extreme conclusions on my end, with statements like:

“I’m not blaming all my problems on low vitamin A…” (I’m acutely aware that I didn’t consume near enough red meat, saturated fat, salt, calcium, easily digestible carbs, and a plethora of smaller issues like undigestible plants and plant proteins. If you don’t support beans and rice as major food sources, Fair enough, but that’s currently a big theme in the low vitamin A community).

and

“ a nutrient that humans consumed in astronomically higher doses…” (I can understand with this statement, how leaving out “than today,” could imply I’m not comparing to today’s standard…).

However, I’m not at all convinced that looking at evidence of hunter gatherer societies is at all useful in determining an optimal diet. And indeed, for the last few thousand years, agrarian societies consume WAY more vitamin A, than today’s western person, due to sources like liver and heart, which were consumed weekly, and dairy, which was consumed daily, by the lb.

My grandpa’s impoverished sharecropping family, had two milk cows providing approximately 7 gallons a day to a household of 3 adults and 6 children at any given moment (that accounts for about the rate of reared to nest leaving that each child stayed in the home). They also ate liver weekly. Idk about heart but I know heart roast was a weekly Sunday dish in Germanic Europe until 40 years ago, on top of highest dairy consumption and weekly liver/pate’s.

If you think the modern westerner eats anything comparable I guess there’s no further discussion to be had. Maybe beta carotene, which is what I guess you’re claiming kept my vitamin A levels not low, but in raw veggies, that’s not very digestible.


Literally the same for everyone consuming the aforementioned homesteader/agrarian diet, and that’s the crux of my whole argument against vitamin A toxicity. I’m not saying one can’t get vitamin A toxic from supplementing while hypothyroid and lacking vitamin E on top, but that’s a separate issue to the vitamin A toxicity imo, as Grant Genereux and Garrett Smith suppose. People are now even saying to stop eating liver and dairy!


Agreed, that’s another piece of the health puzzle, that ironically, I actually think the vitamin A toxicity crowd underplays when they feel better on their diet of choice (beans can indeed help with bile/estrogen detox, but that doesn’t mean that detoxing vitamin A is improving anything as they sometimes support).

I’m not saying you stand by all statements of the anti-vitamin A crowd, but that’s largely what I’m addressing.

thanks for the decent and enlightening reply. I do have a couple of issues with it though. I have the impresseion (might be wrong) that you base your idea of previous times diet mainly on propaganda from the modern weston price crowd. I used to belive that as well but after studying history and also historical nutritional data I find their claimes to be absurd. Its possible that some very few homesteaders for a very brief period in the 1800s actually ate like they described but for the majority of human kind this was just simply not the case, porrage, potato. herring in the coastal areas. and bread bread bread and ale is more like it historically. And its a generall medical consensus (for whatever thats worth) that average vitamin A consumption has at least quadrupled the last 100 years on average. TO take scandinavia as the area I am most familiar with the idea of eating that amount of dairy or get regular access to organ meat (Im talking pre-1900) is just proposterous. You can study anything from reciepebooks, to military rations, ship diets, diaries and eclasiastical descripitons as well as taxes from (to keep this to Europe(western culture)) and even if there is great variation the majority of people survived on grains, (later aslo potatoes.). But I agree that looking back to see what is ideal is not necesarily ideal I just didnt want to bring that up as an additional complicating factor in my first answer. Because even if you were right that people used to eat these amounts of vitamin a in the past it wouldnt make it ideal. But I think you could go further and look at isotope analyzis and archaeology even if I think its reasonable to deduce something from hunter gatherers the last 200 years as their enviroment wasnt that different to the past. The first clinical observation of vitamin A toxicity to my knowledge is in a homo erectus skeleton from africa about 1.5 mil years ago btw. I dont ascribe to any specific crowd including the A toxicity crowd thats true. I also dont find Grant and Smith to be agreeing except being against vitamin A but thats my personal opinion. I do get a lot of troube when I eat beans btw lol- I get estrogenic) For me personally I was a wreck from vitamin A toxicity and cutting liver and dairy has been one of the best things ever for my health. but Im not trying to make anyone following all the hype. even if I have gotten some help from it.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

@Eberhardt

Thanks for fair reply.

Westin A Price confirmed my suspicions, but that diet was as told to my by my grandpa. I’ve lived next to him my whole life, and lots of stories shared.

I do agree that what’s left out by the Westin a price crowd is just how much Starch and carb people traditionally ate.

While my grandpa and his impoverished family did eat the way I described (and everyone he knew), they also primarily ate pastries and gravy. They were so poor, that Whole meals would be just gravy. I’ve ascertained that they were likely protein deficient, given they may eat a pork chop, sausage, or roast a few times a week during plentiful seasons. My grandpa didn’t hit his growth spurt until he got out of the navy at about 20, when he could afford to buy his own food, and then grew about 8 inches (but was sure to maintain weekly liver consumption btw).

Most people throughout western agrarian history mostly ate grain. I definitely agree. I actually believe that a high vitamin a diet is detrimental without a super fast metabolic rate created by such high carb consumption. This has confirmed my experience with increasing vit A intake in tandem with an increasing metabolism via taking T3. My steroids and skin improves when I do it this way (I did have to back off vitamin A when my metabolism was slower). I find I actually need to lower my protein intake a little and increase both fat and carbs to maintain a more voracious metabolism, which is kinda in tandem with the diet that Europeans classically ate.

Also, for what it’s worth, I couldn’t eat liver for a long time because of reactions to methionine. I think people may be mistaking reactions to vitamin A for what is actually a high methionine food… it absolutely would crash me. I’ve only lightly consumed liver lately, getting most vitamin A from supplements until my metabolism improves enough to take the methionine hit.

 

[Eberhardt]

@Eberhardt

Thanks for fair reply.

Westin A Price confirmed my suspicions, but that diet was as told to my by my grandpa. I’ve lived next to him my whole life, and lots of stories shared.

I do agree that what’s left out by the Westin a price crowd is just how much Starch and carb people traditionally ate.

While my grandpa and his impoverished family did eat the way I described (and everyone he knew), they also primarily ate pastries and gravy. They were so poor, that Whole meals would be just gravy. I’ve ascertained that they were likely protein deficient, given they may eat a pork chop, sausage, or roast a few times a week during plentiful seasons. My grandpa didn’t hit his growth spurt until he got out of the navy at about 20, when he could afford to buy his own food, and then grew about 8 inches (but was sure to maintain weekly liver consumption btw).

Most people throughout western agrarian history mostly ate grain. I definitely agree. I actually believe that a high vitamin a diet is detrimental without a super fast metabolic rate created by such high carb consumption. This has confirmed my experience with increasing vit A intake in tandem with an increasing metabolism via taking T3. My steroids and skin improves when I do it this way (I did have to back off vitamin A when my metabolism was slower). I find I actually need to lower my protein intake a little and increase both fat and carbs to maintain a more voracious metabolism, which is kinda in tandem with the diet that Europeans classically ate.

Also, for what it’s worth, I couldn’t eat liver for a long time because of reactions to methionine. I think people may be mistaking reactions to vitamin A for what is actually a high methionine food… it absolutely would crash me. I’ve only lightly consumed liver lately, getting most vitamin A from supplements until my metabolism improves enough to take the methionine hit.

Really appreciate the answer. I belive your story about your grandpa but as I said (and I am aslo quite sure you understood my point) this was an anomaly historically for most people. I think there was a tendency to be proteindeficient though, I agree. In this part we dont really disagree much at all it seems.
Its also maybe worth noting that for the argument of tolerance due to long time high exposure historically, the agrarian period is a very short stint of human history, THis is not to be taken as an argument for paleo (though it sure could) but it does have a consequence for wether we are adapted to it. And also lactose tolerance has been developed during the same time due to dairy consumption. I am not sure that tolerence is the same as it being beneficial though. In europe there is also a genetic adaption to consuming alcohol that for example asians dont have due to centuries of outright alcholism Id say. But that brings up another point -vitamin A (retinol) is actually an alcohol, meaning Im at least not convinced that the question of tolerance vs benefit isnt maybe very relevant here too? Im not follwing the general anti-A herd but I do think there is relevance.

I was btw eating liver successfully for 10 years before getting problems and I was definately toxic as even conventional blood-tests confirm. Bit I also agree that - like all possibly problematic substances - tolerance increases with metabolism. But I was consistantly 37 degrees BT for years and my thyroid numbers where too be honest not optimal but definatly in range at least before I became toxic. SO I just started to wonder why I couldnt convert T4 to T3 and just made reverse T3 when doing thyroid. Anyways I am not really doing much except trying to get lower, but I did eat A LOT like 135.000IU a day for years (without supplements). Theres noone saying that is healthy as far as I know. So to me this isnt a big change I just think it might be anti-metabolic and not prometabolic. If you view it that way a lot of the arguments around it less weird in my view. And also I try to not be too dogmatic about it. What I can say is that its obvious from research that its quite difficullt to get deficient so for normal people today.

 

[Dainis Spainis]

I did simple A vit lowering protocol like eating foods containing soluble fiber, lower fats, no fat soluble vitamin supplements, water, warm teas between meals, charcoal supplements, oregano, propolis. My psoriasis red skin spots went down a lot, itching went down a lot. Gut felt a lot better after week.
In covid panic I took too much vit D probably. I had some fat soluble vitamin imbalance.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

I did simple A vit lowering protocol like eating foods containing soluble fiber, lower fats, no fat soluble vitamin supplements, water, warm teas between meals, charcoal supplements, oregano, propolis. My psoriasis red skin spots went down a lot, itching went down a lot. Gut felt a lot better after week.
In covid panic I took too much vit D probably. I had some fat soluble vitamin imbalance.

Interesting. So are you saying out of all your interventions, it was the fat solubles, not just excipients, and vitamin A, not just activated charcoal, that improved your health? (Backing off the vit D without adequate calcium is a good idea). These are just hypothetical questions to convey the point that gut health is powerful unto the things the anti-vitamin A crowd claims is accomplished with eliminating vit A.

My sister’s psoriasis went down after increasing dairy fat and eating carrot salad, and supping progesterone and an Aromatase inhibitor. My skin improved after eliminating pufas and toxic ingredients (no more fast food). I eat more saturated fat (because I’m lower protein, and still keep carbs higher) than most Peat folks.

 

[Dainis Spainis]

Well... I have tried almost every possible diet except those with beans. I have thought for a while that beans are evil. I ussually gradually switch from one diet to another. Most of the times I am eating lowcarbish - meats, eggs, veggies. I have never used vit A like pill, but sometimes I am taking cod liver ol with vit A in it. Also have been eating a lot of liver and foods with lot of carotenoids. So my friend told that there is such thing as liver accumulating copper together with vit A - it might happen when chronicly eating high fat foods with lot of fat soluble vitamins in them (vid d + cod liver oils + livers + carotenoids). I also had cravings for beans. So I tried this "diet". I think it depends where you are. I had several red flags about this liver thing and doing something different helped me. I still will eat liver and carrots, probably at lesser extent.

 

[tommyg130]

So you’re saying vitamin A deficient diet worsened you? And once you added in supplemental A you got better?

 

[LiveLaughLove]

@Eberhardt interesting.

I believe that the avg impoverished European was poorly fed and not optimally healthy. people got the foods their status afforded (not different from any society). If I remember correctly, the avg Dane was relatively short until after WW2, when dairy production increased, and meat availability increased.

I don’t think that modern hunter gatherers are optimally healthy either. Avg lifespan is in the 70s, while Europeans for the last 200 years were routinely reaching 90s without modern medical intervention (like my 96 year old grandpa). I’d use the very African tribes paleo advocates use, for my example that whatever hunter gatherers eat, is not synonymous with optimal health. I’d argue that increasing health in the last 200 yrs in Europe has everything to do with increasing availability of dairy and protein.

Vitamin A and Metabolism:
I agree with your assessment, but believe the answer is in reverse. Peat has mentioned that vitamin A consumption needs to be in tandem with metabolic rate. He’s said the avg lower metabolic rate person needs to consume 5000IU max, and the higher doses some studies show benefits from, need to be done with higher metabolic function, or it could possibly slow metabolic rate further. I did experience this, and needed to back off A supping for a time (Kept getting it from lots of dairy fat tho).
I’m convinced any Vitamin A “toxicity” needs to be remediated with thyroid (t3), or other metabolic improvements. Definitely, back off consumption of vit A, but you can absolutely go hypogonadal/pseudocushings, if you go long term low vitamin A. I just can’t reconcile considering vitamin A a toxin when knowing it’s the precursor to making pregnenolone, and a healthy body wants to produce a whole lot of that. Also, consider reading research like the following:
“all-trans-Retinoic acid (RA) is the major biologically active form of vitamin A, and nuclear retinoid receptors are the major mediators of all- trans-RA actions [1, 2]. RA metabolites of vitamin A are key regulators of gene expression involved in embryonic development and maintenance of epithelial tissues [3].”

—[Vitamins and Regulation of Gene Expression​

Azzi A.a · Aratri E.a · Boscoboinik D.a · Cle´ment S.a · O¨zer N.b · Ricciarelli R.a ·Spycher S.a · Stocker A.a]

And,

“The physiological actions of atRA are mediated primarily by its binding to RA receptors (RAR α, β and γ isoforms) and subsequent formation of heterodimers of RAR and retinoic X receptors (RXR α, β and γ isoforms) (20). RAR and RXR are members of the large family of hormones, vitamins and lipid receptors: receptors for steroids, thyroid hormones, vitamin D…”

—[Vitamin A, endocrine tissues and hormones: interplay and interactions​

J Brossaud, V Pallet, and J-B Corcuff]
———————————————————


Also, I’d be careful before considering blood levels as absolute proofs. For instance, when demand is high, tissues can release it into the blood. Likewise, when dietary A is low, demand can be high on the tissues to release it for immediate use because we need pregnenolone and Gene expression regulation all the time, thus blood level can still be high. I’d strongly encourage booking one of those insanely cheap Danny Roddy Skype cessions. He knows a whole lot about what blood work is showing, and can help narrow problems better, or at least uncover what’s happening with decent understanding.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

So you’re saying vitamin A deficient diet worsened you? And once you added in supplemental A you got better?

I do believe it ~contributed~ to problems. I had every symptom of hypogonadal, hypothyroid, and estrogen/cortisol dominant since childhood.

“A vitamin A deficiency severely inhibits steroid synthesis. (It is used so massively in steroid synthesis that a progesterone supplement can prevent the symptoms of vitamin A deficiency.) I suspect that vitamin A is necessary for the side-chain cleavage that converts cholesterol to pregnenolone.”
— Ray

 

[Eberhardt]

@Eberhardt interesting.

I believe that the avg impoverished European was poorly fed and not optimally healthy. people got the foods their status afforded (not different from any society). If I remember correctly, the avg Dane was relatively short until after WW2, when dairy production increased, and meat availability increased.

I don’t think that modern hunter gatherers are optimally healthy either. Avg lifespan is in the 70s, while Europeans for the last 200 years were routinely reaching 90s without modern medical intervention (like my 96 year old grandpa). I’d use the very African tribes paleo advocates use, for my example that whatever hunter gatherers eat, is not synonymous with optimal health. I’d argue that increasing health in the last 200 yrs in Europe has everything to do with increasing availability of dairy and protein.

Vitamin A and Metabolism:
I agree with your assessment, but believe the answer is in reverse. Peat has mentioned that vitamin A consumption needs to be in tandem with metabolic rate. He’s said the avg lower metabolic rate person needs to consume 5000IU max, and the higher doses some studies show benefits from, need to be done with higher metabolic function, or it could possibly slow metabolic rate further. I did experience this, and needed to back off A supping for a time (Kept getting it from lots of dairy fat tho).
I’m convinced any Vitamin A “toxicity” needs to be remediated with thyroid (t3), or other metabolic improvements. Definitely, back off consumption of vit A, but you can absolutely go hypogonadal/pseudocushings, if you go long term low vitamin A. I just can’t reconcile considering vitamin A a toxin when knowing it’s the precursor to making pregnenolone, and a healthy body wants to produce a whole lot of that. Also, consider reading research like the following:
“all-trans-Retinoic acid (RA) is the major biologically active form of vitamin A, and nuclear retinoid receptors are the major mediators of all- trans-RA actions [1, 2]. RA metabolites of vitamin A are key regulators of gene expression involved in embryonic development and maintenance of epithelial tissues [3].”

—[Vitamins and Regulation of Gene Expression​

Azzi A.a · Aratri E.a · Boscoboinik D.a · Cle´ment S.a · O¨zer N.b · Ricciarelli R.a ·Spycher S.a · Stocker A.a]

And,

“The physiological actions of atRA are mediated primarily by its binding to RA receptors (RAR α, β and γ isoforms) and subsequent formation of heterodimers of RAR and retinoic X receptors (RXR α, β and γ isoforms) (20). RAR and RXR are members of the large family of hormones, vitamins and lipid receptors: receptors for steroids, thyroid hormones, vitamin D…”

—[Vitamin A, endocrine tissues and hormones: interplay and interactions​

J Brossaud, V Pallet, and J-B Corcuff]
———————————————————


Also, I’d be careful before considering blood levels as absolute proofs. For instance, when demand is high, tissues can release it into the blood. Likewise, when dietary A is low, demand can be high on the tissues to release it for immediate use because we need pregnenolone and Gene expression regulation all the time, thus blood level can still be high. I’d strongly encourage booking one of those insanely cheap Danny Roddy Skype cessions. He knows a whole lot about what blood work is showing, and can help narrow problems better, or at least uncover what’s happening with decent understanding.

Hi again. Well I agree that hunter-gatherers diets are not necesarily optimal (though maybe better then modern diets in general). I used them - btw not especially limiting myself to africa as there is more examples from the northern hemisphere as well as mid 20th century and earlier tribes in the americas - as a refutation of the claim that it was obvious it was ok to eat retinol as we had eaten it in huge quantities, thay you made in your initial post :)

To the degree that we can get anything out of this I think its important to seperate the issues. Im familiar with the research you are talking about and Ive written with both dr.Peat himself, Danny and Haidut in the past about my issues. It has in no way helped or bettered the situation. But I would like to seperate the issues as I said.
1. Is it possible to be vitamin A toxic (also with good metabolism).
2. Was I toxic?
3. Is it a vitamin?
4.Is the research thrustworthy.

1: I think its very clear from available research that vitamin A toxicity is very real, and I have seen no available research denying this. I think its relevant to reference especially Rodal's research for the polar institue from the 1950s up to the 70s. Its also a known phenomena in animal studies where toxicity have been observed in a variety of arctic spiecies both mammalian and non-mamallian. What the level of retinol intake necessary would be for each organism would adjust itself by the metabolic rate and possibly individual and species-specific genetic make up. This tolerance question I think you agree in so far as I can gather from your posts.

2: I wish you were right. I think its quite clear to me that I was severly toxic as I had multiple severe symtoms - everything from failing eyesight to elevated liver enzymes, iron overoad and deficiency simultanously, bone deformation, mental problems and even beginning breath paralyzis and even my doctor was in no doubt about my condition and its reality. It basically felt like I was dying and maybe I was because that is the beginning of the extreme phase of toxicity. I had also for a decent period of time followed both Haiduts Danny and Peats exact recomodations for both DNT T3 T4 Preg and Prog too at least not much avail. E made it even worse. It all stopped upon quitting A so in my personal case Im not in doubt it was overloading my system and I after all consumed about 30% of the potential lethal dose for my bodyweight for years. So its no surprise.

3. No here is the tricky part. I tend to be very sceptical on the matter. I know of the research you quote but then there is contradictory research showing oposite results with healthy young men getting better libido on elimination diets (done in the US in the 70s if I am correct) and the experiment going on for two years and being stopped due to the health increasing not decreasing due to lack of A . In all fairness even 2 years isnt enought to say what it would do in the long run as it takes at least 4 years to empty the average persons storage. All my bloodindicators on everything from calcium to iron and hormones are so far just improving for me personally but that doesnt prove anything either at least not yet. I think I will be making dubious claims if Im trying to defute the research you quote - I know Grant has tackled those in his books but honestly I haven been reading all the thousands of pages he has produced, and in truth I dont think Im competent to evaluate them. I know they are disputed and that there is contradictory research but on the question of embryo delvelopment there is so far the only area Im aware of that doesnt have contradictory results (meaning it seems to show its needed). It might be that it is or it might be a mix of cause and effect. What I am absolutly sure of is that in context with the rest of stressors on the body in modern life it is obvious we are not handling it well be that because of metabolic rate other factors or both (I assume strongly both). In france about 30% of adults already 50years ago upon autopsy was shown to have acute retinoic liver toxicity across age and sex (these were traffic accident victims). So to be honest I dont know and theres too many confounding factors. I view it a bit like Pufa that its sort of impossible to get to zero outside of a lab anyway. I do find it strange though.

4. Even harder to say. some are obviously not like the first retional deficiency test being done on a high A diet because it was not yet know which forms that exist and what contained them. Also its not absolutly sure we cannot need/use it even if it is a "toxic" substance. I think to label something categorically as f.ex. toxic is a mistake. Stressors can be beneficial like strength training. We dont need to go to the hormesis thing of which Im sceptical just like gravity is needed for bones (see astronauts). I make effort to keep my intake low but not zero. Its hard to say what comes first the hearse or the horse. I know its involved in many prosesses but is it necessary. Like its a fact that PUFAs accumulate in the brain but Peat has suggested it might be deposited not needed. To be honest I dont know .

 

[Dainis Spainis]

So you’re saying vitamin A deficient diet worsened you? And once you added in supplemental A you got better?s I said I have been on low carb, high fat diet mostly for last 3 years. Also eating lot of orange veggies - home grown tomatoes, paprika, pumpkins, carrots a lot! + a lot of liver, a lot of fats (mostly saturated) + a lot of vitamin D and K but not A. Got my first psoriasis on my skin before 2 years - it progresses slowly. Fasting makes it better, bread, cheese and peanuts making it worse, No reaction from nightshades. I was eating things like beans, buckwheat very rarely - sources of soluble fiber.

I tried this soluble fiber "diet" because I have been abusing vit D and have not been eating beans for last 3 years. So I just ate 1 portion of beans and buckwheat every day for few weeks + activated black charcoal. My psoriasis went down for 50%. Only 3 day water fast can do such reduction in psoriasis symptoms.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

Hi again. Well I agree that hunter-gatherers diets are not necesarily optimal (though maybe better then modern diets in general). I used them - btw not especially limiting myself to africa as there is more examples from the northern hemisphere as well as mid 20th century and earlier tribes in the americas - as a refutation of the claim that it was obvious it was ok to eat retinol as we had eaten it in huge quantities, thay you made in your initial post :)

well I'm balancing comparisons, not seeking health advice from past diets. when we have histories of people both eating and not eating vitamin A in significant amounts, and both live into old age, it's only reasonable to say it's not a toxin based off this information. my own grandpa is 96 and ate way more retinol than the avg American today (don't know about beta carotene, which is definitely a problem and gets looped into vitamin A). so I'm saying that you can't say it's not healthy because you found evidence that past people ate low amounts, when others ate higher amounts and lived to similar lifespans, and many of who's people's reached above avg heights (great symptom of health), or at least you can't do so reasonably.

To the degree that we can get anything out of this I think its important to seperate the issues. Im familiar with the research you are talking about and Ive written with both dr.Peat himself, Danny and Haidut in the past about my issues. It has in no way helped or bettered the situation. But I would like to seperate the issues as I said.
1. Is it possible to be vitamin A toxic (also with good metabolism).
2. Was I toxic?
3. Is it a vitamin?
4.Is the research thrustworthy.

1: I think its very clear from available research that vitamin A toxicity is very real, and I have seen no available research denying this. I think its relevant to reference especially Rodal's research for the polar institue from the 1950s up to the 70s. Its also a known phenomena in animal studies where toxicity have been observed in a variety of arctic spiecies both mammalian and non-mamallian. What the level of retinol intake necessary would be for each organism would adjust itself by the metabolic rate and possibly individual and species-specific genetic make up. This tolerance question I think you agree in so far as I can gather from your posts.

agreed.

2: I wish you were right. I think its quite clear to me that I was severly toxic as I had multiple severe symtoms - everything from failing eyesight to elevated liver enzymes, iron overoad and deficiency simultanously, bone deformation, mental problems and even beginning breath paralyzis and even my doctor was in no doubt about my condition and its reality. It basically felt like I was dying and maybe I was because that is the beginning of the extreme phase of toxicity. I had also for a decent period of time followed both Haiduts Danny and Peats exact recomodations for both DNT T3 T4 Preg and Prog too at least not much avail. E made it even worse. It all stopped upon quitting A so in my personal case Im not in doubt it was overloading my system and I after all consumed about 30% of the potential lethal dose for my bodyweight for years. So its no surprise.

well correct me if I'm wrong but I think Peat says it can take up to 2 years of proper Thyroid supping, to resolve hypothyroidism. it could take longer when isolating nutrient deficiencies.

3. No here is the tricky part. I tend to be very sceptical on the matter. I know of the research you quote but then there is contradictory research showing oposite results with healthy young men getting better libido on elimination diets (done in the US in the 70s if I am correct) and the experiment going on for two years and being stopped due to the health increasing not decreasing due to lack of A .

I'd be interested in seeing that study. so many positive results come quickly with raw vegan/carnivore diets, due to their elimination structure. I experienced it myself. I'm no longer convinced at all, when someone stops consuming allergens and soluble fiber, as well as some natural antibiotics (herbs and saturated fat both do so in the gut).

In all fairness even 2 years isnt enought to say what it would do in the long run as it takes at least 4 years to empty the average persons storage. All my bloodindicators on everything from calcium to iron and hormones are so far just improving for me personally but that doesnt prove anything either at least not yet. I think I will be making dubious claims if Im trying to defute the research you quote - I know Grant has tackled those in his books but honestly I haven been reading all the thousands of pages he has produced, and in truth I dont think Im competent to evaluate them.

I've not read Grant because none of this passes my basic sniff test, but I did happen upon Garrett Smith's vitamin D theories, and the whole thing read's like a conspiracy theorist with hackneyed collections of any reason vitamin D could be supposed as bad. it was unconvincing research. I found similar in his vitamin A opinions. it's a classic worldview of skepticism with an open range for anything that gets in it's way. I used to be the same way.

I know they are disputed and that there is contradictory research but on the question of embryo delvelopment there is so far the only area Im aware of that doesnt have contradictory results (meaning it seems to show its needed). It might be that it is or it might be a mix of cause and effect. What I am absolutly sure of is that in context with the rest of stressors on the body in modern life it is obvious we are not handling it well be that because of metabolic rate other factors or both (I assume strongly both). In france about 30% of adults already 50years ago upon autopsy was shown to have acute retinoic liver toxicity across age and sex (these were traffic accident victims). So to be honest I dont know and theres too many confounding factors. I view it a bit like Pufa that its sort of impossible to get to zero outside of a lab anyway. I do find it strange though.

I wonder if they're calling vitamin A toxicity "higher vitamin A levels in tissues, than they like," or "damage identified by presence of vitamin A." I also wonder that about most vitamin A toxicity claims.

 

[CLASH]

Moral of the stories here:

-An excess of vitamin A can be problematic.

-A deficiency of vitamin A can be problematic.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

-An excess of vitamin A can be problematic.

True

-A deficiency of vitamin A can be problematic.

True

 

[Eberhardt]

well I'm balancing comparisons, not seeking health advice from past diets. when we have histories of people both eating and not eating vitamin A in significant amounts, and both live into old age, it's only reasonable to say it's not a toxin based off this information. my own grandpa is 96 and ate way more retinol than the avg American today (don't know about beta carotene, which is definitely a problem and gets looped into vitamin A). so I'm saying that you can't say it's not healthy because you found evidence that past people ate low amounts, when others ate higher amounts and lived to similar lifespans, and many of who's people's reached above avg heights (great symptom of health), or at least you can't do so reasonably.

Well that's the same for me. Im not using it as a model for health. But. First of all that what I am doing is trying to refute your initial arguemnt that it cannot be a problem because we ate so much for so long time historically. That some people at some times have eaten more is not a refutation of that. Also that the main source of vitamin A in modern people are supplements and beta-caroteen is not unlikely though this will vary. As there is pretty solid and uncontroversial evidence that average amount of A intake has skyrocketed worldwide I dont see any reson for doubting that. All these are not arguments for or against A, this is just listing generally agreed findings and I think that refutes your initial claim that thus it cannot be harmful. Also that some people can live to 96 despite a less then optimal diet is not an indication of anything but the fact that people have different tolerances. Some people live to a 110 and smokes sigarettes. Good for them but no indication of wether it is healthy or not and as I said I dont belive in labeling it as completly good or bad. But reaching above average height is according to Peat a sign of bad health (yes that is contrarian), as he views the growth hormones as stress responses. I can see his point as A) testosterone f.ex increases with stress (thus possibly explaining INITIAL test raise by higher A even if plasma levels correlate statistically with lower test). B) The average centenarian is 160cm and 60 kilos. If you are over 180 you can basically say goodbye to setting any age-related records. No supercentanarians are tall. This does not indicate that all small people are healthy as you can be short for unhealthy reasons too.

agreed.


well correct me if I'm wrong but I think Peat says it can take up to 2 years of proper Thyroid supping, to resolve hypothyroidism. it could take longer when isolating nutrient deficiencies.

I have been peating for 10 years

I'd be interested in seeing that study. so many positive results come quickly with raw vegan/carnivore diets, due to their elimination structure. I experienced it myself. I'm no longer convinced at all, when someone stops consuming allergens and soluble fiber, as well as some natural antibiotics (herbs and saturated fat both do so in the gut).

Well here you are aobviously on to something. Its very hard to tell if all people reporting so good results do it just because of lower A. I mean most of Garreths suggestions aslo include lowered PUFA s to just to start somewhere. Now it seems like Smiths program is the most common way of doing it these days and the recomendation he gives is to increase fiber, though I dont follow any especial recomendations in fiber except I seem to do good with some but not too much. FOr me its coming on to the 4th year of consistent plusses with low A and its consistent regardless of level of fiber more or less and also I cut most herbs before due to Peats warning about phyto-estrogens and such. Im sorry I cant provide the studies. I know Grant has a lot of them but its a couple of years since I delved into it. I dont read about it regularly.

I've not read Grant because none of this passes my basic sniff test, but I did happen upon Garrett Smith's vitamin D theories, and the whole thing read's like a conspiracy theorist with hackneyed collections of any reason vitamin D could be supposed as bad. it was unconvincing research. I found similar in his vitamin A opinions. it's a classic worldview of skepticism with an open range for anything that gets in it's way. I used to be the same way.

Id much recomend Grants work for studies, and his blog has a discussion forum . I dont give a ***t about Smiths D theories and the community is abusurd. I havent actually been able to use any of it at all except some links and lists of potential sources and aggrevators. Which was helpful along with my previous correspondence with Smith where he was very sympathetic and helpfull in reading bloodtests etc. I dont follow his forum much anymore as I dont find it helpful. I actually didnt hear about it through him either.

I wonder if they're calling vitamin A toxicity "higher vitamin A levels in tissues, than they like," or "damage identified by presence of vitamin A." I also wonder that about most vitamin A toxicity claims.

You cannot measure Vit A in tissues except biopsies which are not allowed to be performed for this outside of autopsies and research. The closest you can get is RBP serum test for carrier proteins but that is not publicly available. The criterias for toxicity has an extensive litterature and I recomend Rodal et.al's research available through the norwegian polar institute among other places as well as marine animal reserach for more thorough info on this. Its also important to keep in mind that most of the damage from vitamin A is not the actual liverdamage but the system/tissue problems. Respiratory failure f.ex are not mediated by liver at all. But it stores A more than most other tissues and it helps eliminate it. I dont know what "than they like" are supposed to mean. Most today doctors dont care or know about this at all and like with any toxicity/hypervitaminosis it is set at the level where you see acute symptoms and tissue-degenaration. The only controversy is how much is bad

 

[LiveLaughLove]

@Eberhardt
With all due respect I think we’ve beat the horse dead.

Hope you have success

 

[Eberhardt]

@Eberhardt
With all due respect I think we’ve beat the horse dead.

Hope you have success

:)