The High Acetylcholine Syndrome

[Soren]

Does coffee make your mouth drier?

Actually now that you mention it yes my mouth does feel a bit drier after drinking coffee. I didn't really notice it before.

I drink 3-5 espressos per day.

 

[Soren]

Still experimenting with resolving this problem. Am taking some thyroid which increases acne usually I would take liver to counter this but this causes excess saliva. I am surprised that this happens with liver as it is so high in vitamin A which helps to decrease acetylcholine levels that I would think it counters the high choline levels.

Taking magnesium oil in an attempt to counter the issue.

@Hans and or anyone have any data on the doses of Vitamin A and K and magnesium that are needed to reduce acetylcholine? I saw the reference in your article Hans but the details are behind a pay wall.

 

[LauriePartridge]

I wrote an article on acetylcholine which describes symptoms of high and low acetylcholine. I also discuss what can cause it to be high or low and what supplements can be used to block or boost it.

The high acetylcholine syndrome » MenElite

Really excellent and informative article. Thanks! So if I want to eat potatoes for their blocking effect, do I need to eat the skins too - which contain the chemicals?

 

[Hans]

Really excellent and informative article. Thanks! So if I want to eat potatoes for their blocking effect, do I need to eat the skins too - which contain the chemicals?

Thank you. I prefer to peel them else they tend to be more gut irritating. But potatoes do contain other ingredients that actually inhibit the breakdown of acetylcholine. So for some people, it's more pro-acetylcholine than anti.

 

[LauriePartridge]

Thank you. I prefer to peel them else they tend to be more gut irritating. But potatoes do contain other ingredients that actually inhibit the breakdown of acetylcholine. So for some people, it's more pro-acetylcholine than anti.

Ok so it sounds like it can go both ways with potatoes. So what foods do you think would have an anti-acetylcholine effect? Thanks.

 

[Hans]

Ok so it sounds like it can go both ways with potatoes. So what foods do you think would have an anti-acetylcholine effect? Thanks.

I haven't really found a good one. I would personally focus on supplements that can help to lower it instead of foods.

 

[LauriePartridge]

I haven't really found a good one. I would personally focus on supplements that can help to lower it instead of foods.

Ok thanks!

 

[LauriePartridge]

I wrote an article on acetylcholine which describes symptoms of high and low acetylcholine. I also discuss what can cause it to be high or low and what supplements can be used to block or boost it.

The high acetylcholine syndrome » MenElite

Capsaicin might help block it. Some research says it does and some says it doesn't but I notice great progress when I use it. I went off of it for a while because I was worried about its ability to increase Nitric Oxide but having gone off of it for about 6 weeks, I've noticed symptoms getting worse again. There is some current research that shows it inhibits acetylcholine as well as serotonin:

Capsaicin inhibits the function of α7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptors expressed in Xenopus oocytes and rat hippocampal neurons - PubMed

Capsaicin is a naturally occurring alkaloid derived from Chili peppers fruits. Using the two-electrode voltage-clamp technique in Xenopus oocyte expression system, actions of capsaicin on the functional properties of α₇ subunit of the human nicotinic acetylcholine (α₇ nACh)...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Capsaicin Is a Negative Allosteric Modulator of the 5-HT3 Receptor

In this study, effects of capsaicin, an active ingredient of the capsicum plant, were investigated on human 5-hydroxytryptamine type 3 (5-HT3) receptors. Cap...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[LauriePartridge]

I wrote an article on acetylcholine which describes symptoms of high and low acetylcholine. I also discuss what can cause it to be high or low and what supplements can be used to block or boost it.

The high acetylcholine syndrome » MenElite

Also peppers have been shown in some research to increase acetylcholine by blocking cholinesteraces but I think that could be due to other flavonoids present like quercetin. So I fry habanero peppers (which reduces solanine) and eat them as they have hardly any quercetin and they are very high in capsaicin.

 

[Hans]

Capsaicin might help block it. Some research says it does and some says it doesn't but I notice great progress when I use it. I went off of it for a while because I was worried about its ability to increase Nitric Oxide but having gone off of it for about 6 weeks, I've noticed symptoms getting worse again. There is some current research that shows it inhibits acetylcholine as well as serotonin:

Capsaicin inhibits the function of α7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptors expressed in Xenopus oocytes and rat hippocampal neurons - PubMed

Capsaicin is a naturally occurring alkaloid derived from Chili peppers fruits. Using the two-electrode voltage-clamp technique in Xenopus oocyte expression system, actions of capsaicin on the functional properties of α₇ subunit of the human nicotinic acetylcholine (α₇ nACh)...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Capsaicin Is a Negative Allosteric Modulator of the 5-HT3 Receptor

In this study, effects of capsaicin, an active ingredient of the capsicum plant, were investigated on human 5-hydroxytryptamine type 3 (5-HT3) receptors. Cap...

www.frontiersin.org

Nice. I react negatively to cayenne or chilli pepper (I think it's the lectin or because they're nightshade), so I don't eat it very frequently.

 

[aliml]

Symptoms of Low Acetylcholine In Anticholinergic Syndrome​

When patients ingest massive doses of anticholinergic medications (such as accidental poisoning with atropine), anticholinergic syndrome occurs. The symptoms of anticholinergic syndrome are recognized based on presentation (clinical signs and symptoms). The symptoms of low acetylcholine are easy to miss because they can mimic many other conditions.

Doctors have a mnemonic to remember the presentation of low acetylcholine levels in anticholinergic syndrome: “Blind as a bat, dry as a bone, red as a beet, mad as a hatter, can’t see, can’t pee, can’t poop”. What do these symptoms mean and what other symptoms occur in anticholinergic poisoning?

1. “Brain Fog”, Poor Short-Term Memory:​

Acetylcholine is the neurotransmitter needed by the neurons of the brain to communicate with each other. Low acetylcholine causes difficulties with cognition, “brain fog”, and mental fatigue.

2. Fatigue, Especially Fatigue That Worsens With Exertion:​

Acetylcholine is required by the peripheral nervous system allowing muscles to work. Insufficient acetylcholine levels result in muscle weakness that worsens with exercise or exertion. The muscles may work for a while, then exhaust their supply of acetylcholine, leading to extreme fatigue.

3. Constipation / Gastroparesis (“can’t poop”):​

The vagus nerve uses acetylcholine to assist every aspect of digestion including peristalsis (movement of food or stool through the digestive tract). Stomach acid production, the opening of the pyloric sphincter at the bottom of the stomach, gallbladder function, some pancreatic function, and opening of the Sphincter of Oddi (which allows bile and pancreatic enzymes to pass into the intestines). Therefore, low acetylcholine levels are especially detrimental to the digestive tract.

Because the vagus nerve is such an important part of the digestive tract low acetylcholine levels can be especially detrimental. Chronic constipation and/or gastroparesis. are very common symptoms of low acetylcholine.

Poor digestion and poor absorption of critical nutrients are also common symptoms of low acetylcholine potentially leading to malnutrition.

4. Dry Eyes (“dry as a bone”):​

Normal tear production is a process of our autonomic nervous system. Acetylcholine is required by the lacrimal gland to produce tears. Acetylcholine is also used by the nerves to tell our bodies when to produce tears. When levels of acetylcholine are low, dry, painful eyes can result. Dry eyes due to insufficient acetylcholine are resistant to conventional dry eye treatment unless acetylcholine levels are restored.

5. Orthostatic Hypotension:​

Suboptimal acetylcholine levels can cause low blood pressure when standing, causing dizziness and weakness.

6. Flushing (“red as a beet”):​

Patients with low acetylcholine often experience episodes of flushing (redness) on the face. The neck and other parts of the body may also appear flushed. It is common for flushing to be misdiagnosed as rosacea or mast cell activation.

7. Emotional Instability (“mad as a hatter”):​

People with low acetylcholine levels often suffer from the inability to cope with their emotions. Their emotional state can be unpredictable.

8. Chronic Inflammation:​

Acetylcholine is needed by the vagus nerve (the anti-inflammatory pathway of the body). Low levels of acetylcholine contribute to consistently high inflammation which can cause pain, atherosclerosis, fatigue, hypercoagulation (easy blood clotting), and premature aging. Chronic inflammation is an often overlooked symptom of low acetylcholine which results in accelerated aging.

9. Fast Heart Rate (Tachycardia):​

The parasympathetic nervous system is the body’s “rest and digest” system. When levels of acetylcholine are insufficient, the vagus nerve no longer slows down the heart. If the heart can not be properly slowed the body cannot rest. The vagus nerve relies upon acetylcholine to stimulate the sinoatrial node of the heart to normalize the heart rate.

10. Large Pupils (“blind as a bat”):​

Pupil size is a function of the balance between the sympathetic nervous system (large pupils) and parasympathetic nervous system (small pupils). Suboptimal acetylcholine levels upset this balance. When the balance is upset, the sympathetic nervous system overrides the parasympathetic nervous system, resulting in large pupils. Large pupils often cause light sensitivity and difficulty focusing.

Top 10 Symptoms of Low Acetylcholine - Parasym Plus™

Symptoms of low acetylcholine - Parasym Plus™ helps support proper acetylcholine function, a necessary component to proper muscle and brain function

vagusnervesupport.com

 

[JamesGatz]

Very helpful Hans - I do find it interesting the doses of B1 have different effects on it - I have limited B1 to maybe once a week thats about how often I crave it - I notice if I take low dose every day (maybe 100mg) I do get anti-androgenic effects - do you know why this occurs ? Is it related to this or maybe something completely different ?

 

[Hans]

Very helpful Hans - I do find it interesting the doses of B1 have different effects on it - I have limited B1 to maybe once a week thats about how often I crave it - I notice if I take low dose every day (maybe 100mg) I do get anti-androgenic effects - do you know why this occurs ? Is it related to this or maybe something completely different ?

Not sure, it can be the body adjusting to re-find equilibrium. I haven't seen any evidence that B1 itself can be anti-androgenic.

 

[FitnessMike]

your articles dont work mr

 

[xeliex]

Still experimenting with resolving this problem. Am taking some thyroid which increases acne usually I would take liver to counter this but this causes excess saliva. I am surprised that this happens with liver as it is so high in vitamin A which helps to decrease acetylcholine levels that I would think it counters the high choline levels.

Taking magnesium oil in an attempt to counter the issue.

@Hans and or anyone have any data on the doses of Vitamin A and K and magnesium that are needed to reduce acetylcholine? I saw the reference in your article Hans but the details are behind a pay wall.

Old but good thread to revive.

Vitamin A does indeed seem to calm down my twitching when I get plagued by them. But it also seems that Vitamin E and K help a bit, as well as progesterone.

 

[Nimo]

Hello, i have read alot about this problem and found alot information about nightshades and cholinesterase inhibition. im now experimenting with no eating any potatoes as i was eating 1000-1500g daily for long time as starches work for me and most days i had 4-5 eggs daily with those potatoes. Potatoes inhibit cholinesterase and eggs have alot choline, whitch can be for some people really bad combo. When i started ray peat diet, i started eating alot potatoes, before i was only white rice, brown rice and oats as my main carbs source. when i started eating potatoes i started feel more cold hands, worse stress handling and more anxiety, bad body odor and some other symptoms whitch hans writed in article as high acetylcholine. i found it takes weeks to body recover cholinesterase so maybe i will report here after this summer my experience :) for now, im completely off potatoes and nightshades and first 2 weeks i will be off eggs too.

 

[FitnessMike]

Hello, i have read alot about this problem and found alot information about nightshades and cholinesterase inhibition. im now experimenting with no eating any potatoes as i was eating 1000-1500g daily for long time as starches work for me and most days i had 4-5 eggs daily with those potatoes. Potatoes inhibit cholinesterase and eggs have alot choline, whitch can be for some people really bad combo. When i started ray peat diet, i started eating alot potatoes, before i was only white rice, brown rice and oats as my main carbs source. when i started eating potatoes i started feel more cold hands, worse stress handling and more anxiety, bad body odor and some other symptoms whitch hans writed in article as high acetylcholine. i found it takes weeks to body recover cholinesterase so maybe i will report here after this summer my experience :) for now, im completely off potatoes and nightshades and first 2 weeks i will be off eggs too.

yes mate potatoes could contribute, i have 600g before bed with salt and olive oil and ketchup and sometimes seem to be too stimulated to fall asleep despite droping all Bs etc

 

[Nimo]

Does @Hans or @haidut know if high acetycholine can somehow decrease thyroid function?

 

[FitnessMike]

Hello, i have read alot about this problem and found alot information about nightshades and cholinesterase inhibition. im now experimenting with no eating any potatoes as i was eating 1000-1500g daily for long time as starches work for me and most days i had 4-5 eggs daily with those potatoes. Potatoes inhibit cholinesterase and eggs have alot choline, whitch can be for some people really bad combo. When i started ray peat diet, i started eating alot potatoes, before i was only white rice, brown rice and oats as my main carbs source. when i started eating potatoes i started feel more cold hands, worse stress handling and more anxiety, bad body odor and some other symptoms whitch hans writed in article as high acetylcholine. i found it takes weeks to body recover cholinesterase so maybe i will report here after this summer my experience :) for now, im completely off potatoes and nightshades and first 2 weeks i will be off eggs too.

Any progress mate? I think i will get off of eggs and cypro as im still struggling with some of the high ach symptoms still, even after dropping al the b vitamins, ill keep the potatoes once a day as the so nutritious. @redsun suggested to me that cypro can cause hypersensitivity to the acetylcholine which make sense. Many symptoms of high stress hormones and high acetylcholine are overlapping but getting better at distinguishing causes with time.

 

[FitnessMike]

Does @Hans or @haidut know if high acetycholine can somehow decrease thyroid function?

Also bump on that