Frankdee20

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Funny how people consume CDP and GPC choline and smart drugs, but too much choline dulls the mind
 

Peater

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This is great Hans. Is there a way of testing acetylcholine levels in the brain and blood? I suffer from sweating easily. At the moment it seems to responding well to 5aDHP and CBD/CBDA (20mg 3x a day). I am waiting to update the thread about sweating once I am satisfied it is a definite correlation. Interesting to see sage mentioned there. I thought it helped for a bit, but in the end it did not.

I have cut out other supplements to be as accurate as possible, apart from camphosal in the evening before bed (Started 2 weeks into my 5aDHP/CBD experiment)
 

erho

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@Hans Do you think that with OCD this is something one might want to effect through diet and supplements, or leave it and just look at the big picture? You do mention implications on OCD by different factors on your website sometimes, I really appreciate that, thanks.
 

Hans

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@Hans Do you think that with OCD this is something one might want to effect through diet and supplements, or leave it and just look at the big picture? You do mention implications on OCD by different factors on your website sometimes, I really appreciate that, thanks.
I definitely think you can address it directly to see if it helps any. I'd probably try out pregnenolone/progesterone/DHEA/T3 and magnesium to see if it helps.
 

rebuke

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A single dose of Alpha GPC made me feel suicidal almost instantly. I had to lay down and sleep it off.
 

Frankdee20

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Rough stuff. Have you tried anticholinergics?

What do you think about the correlation between use of anti cholinergics like Bendedryl and antihistamines and dementia risk ? I really do like doxylamine succinate half a tablet sometimes at night to help me sleep.... I don’t develop tolerance and I think one tablet is very strong and makes me dopey the next day.... but I’m concerned
 

Hans

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There are many anticholinergic drugs and honestly, I don't think it's the anticholinergic effect that leads to dementia. These drugs have many other effects as well, such as increasing serotonin.

From this study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5915701/
"A total of 1 793 505 prescriptions for drugs with an ACB score of 3 were written during the DEP. The five most common drugs were amitriptyline (29%), dosulepin (also known as dothiepin; 16%), paroxetine (8%), oxybutynin (7%), and tolterodine (7%)."

"there was a significant association between dementia incidence and any prescription of antidepressant, antiparkinson, or urological drugs with an ACB score of 3, but no association with antispasmodic, antipsychotic, antihistamine, or other drugs with an ACB score of 3. Prescriptions for drugs with an ACB score of 2 were relatively rare"

"In this case-control study of older adults in the UK, there was a noticeable association between increasing total anticholinergic burden over the previous 4-20 years and incident dementia diagnosis. However, this dose-response effect was not seen for cumulative use of drugs with an Anticholinergic Cognitive Burden (ACB) score of 1 (possibly anticholinergic), and was only evident for certain classes of anticholinergic drugs"

"Antidepressants (predominantly amitriptyline, dosulepin, and paroxetine) and urologicals (predominantly oxybutynin and tolterodine) with an ABC score of 3 (definitely anticholinergic) were consistently associated with incident dementia."

"Prescription of gastrointestinal drugs with an ACB score of 3 was not positively associated with dementia in any of our analyses. Other antidepressants (predominantly selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) with an ACB score of 1 were associated with dementia, but that association was greater for prescriptions close to dementia incidence, suggesting that reverse causation could be a possible explanation for this observed association."

So it's more likely to be serotonin that's involved in dementia. Haidut made a thread about this: Higher Serotonin Availability May Be The Cause Of Cognitive Impairment / Dementia
 

Frankdee20

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There are many anticholinergic drugs and honestly, I don't think it's the anticholinergic effect that leads to dementia. These drugs have many other effects as well, such as increasing serotonin.

From this study:
Anticholinergic drugs and risk of dementia: case-control study
"A total of 1 793 505 prescriptions for drugs with an ACB score of 3 were written during the DEP. The five most common drugs were amitriptyline (29%), dosulepin (also known as dothiepin; 16%), paroxetine (8%), oxybutynin (7%), and tolterodine (7%)."

"there was a significant association between dementia incidence and any prescription of antidepressant, antiparkinson, or urological drugs with an ACB score of 3, but no association with antispasmodic, antipsychotic, antihistamine, or other drugs with an ACB score of 3. Prescriptions for drugs with an ACB score of 2 were relatively rare"

"In this case-control study of older adults in the UK, there was a noticeable association between increasing total anticholinergic burden over the previous 4-20 years and incident dementia diagnosis. However, this dose-response effect was not seen for cumulative use of drugs with an Anticholinergic Cognitive Burden (ACB) score of 1 (possibly anticholinergic), and was only evident for certain classes of anticholinergic drugs"

"Antidepressants (predominantly amitriptyline, dosulepin, and paroxetine) and urologicals (predominantly oxybutynin and tolterodine) with an ABC score of 3 (definitely anticholinergic) were consistently associated with incident dementia."

"Prescription of gastrointestinal drugs with an ACB score of 3 was not positively associated with dementia in any of our analyses. Other antidepressants (predominantly selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) with an ACB score of 1 were associated with dementia, but that association was greater for prescriptions close to dementia incidence, suggesting that reverse causation could be a possible explanation for this observed association."

So it's more likely to be serotonin that's involved in dementia. Haidut made a thread about this: Higher Serotonin Availability May Be The Cause Of Cognitive Impairment / Dementia

Yeah, doxylamine has zero affinity for serotonin and mostly just histamine and Muscarine cholinergic antagonism ... thanks
 

xeliex

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Hans, this was very enlightening. Thank you. I realized that I personally have been having these symptoms since I was a child with varying degrees, especially the blurry vision that puzzled doctors along with bradycardia, OCD, cold extremities, dreams, and many other symptoms.

What is the root cause of "high acetylcholine syndrome" though. You offer excellent methods of controlling it with meds/supplements (and carbs), but can something else be inducing this syndrome in people? I've went through this several times and listened to some Dr. Peat videos. Please correct anything that needs correction below on what the causes might be.

Some of the main causes I could find for high acetylcholine are:

1) Low calcium diet leading to an increase of the activated vitamin D (not the 25 hydroxy).
2) Certain pesticide / organophosphates decreasing proper acetylcholinesterase function
3) Low carbs / overexercising - insulin attenuates symptoms
4) Learned helplessness - an unenriched environment under authoritarians and no fun regimes
5) Low thyroid function? T3 might inhibit its synthesis or release
6) Vitamin deficiencies, including A, D, and K
7) Increased serotonin which can be related to a host of other factors including gut irritation
8) Certain vitamin and supplements, like excess B vitamins or cholinergic supplements perhaps.
 
Last edited:

Peater

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I wonder if acetylcholine is actually high in the brain as some sort of protective measure and is actually getting the blame for symptoms. A bit like DHT and balding, and inflammation and O3.
 

xeliex

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I wonder if acetylcholine is actually high in the brain as some sort of protective measure and is actually getting the blame for symptoms. A bit like DHT and balding, and inflammation and O3.

Interesting thought - only acetylcholine seems to be a direct cause of some or many of the symptoms just as part of its function in various concentrations.
 

Peater

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Interesting thought - only acetylcholine seems to be a direct cause of some or many of the symptoms just as part of its function in various concentrations.

Shame - I was hoping there might be other options than trying to 'brute force' our acetylcholine with drugs or diet.
 

Frankdee20

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Shame - I was hoping there might be other options than trying to 'brute force' our acetylcholine with drugs or diet.
If you think it’s high just limit eggs and liver as they have the highest raw choline along with chickpeas and salmon
 
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