Sudden Psychosis

[Footscray]

The Ray Peat forum is just that a forum. Constantine has suggested something that just 'may' help this poor girl. If it doesn't they move on. But it can't be much worse than what she is experiencing. Give the guy a break, I learn a lot from him, and posters like him.

 

[Richiebogie]

Well-cooked starches and meats are safe, and should be started with, then go from there and experiment with dairy and other potentially bowel irritating foods like fruits.

Starchy foods often have insoluble fibre which can ferment in the gut and cause pain and the release of endotoxins. Haidut recently discussed how endotoxin can cause brain issues like aneurisms!

Fruits should be safer because they have mainly soluble fibre. Just be careful with commercial orange juice as they often crush the peel and seeds!

Try large portions of a limited number of ingredients so you can quickly find what improves mood and what wrecks it.

Glycine sounds like a good thing to try, but maybe keep it under 3 teaspoons a day so as not to create an imbalance.

 

[Giraffe]

Every suggestion is appreciated.

I think, I would give progesterone (and/or pregnenolone) a try. I would also look closer at glycine and the alkaline minerals.

Have you looked into methylene blue? While the suggestions above aim at calming overexcited cells, one of methylene blue's ways of action is that it restores mitochondrial function, bypassing damaged parts of the mitochondrion. Red light works in the same direction.

Methylene blue dosages used for depressive psychosis is 15mg a day (sometimes up to 300mg), but users here report that they notice a difference from dosages less than 1mg. (I think I would try a low dose first.) If certain medications are used (e.g. SSRI) methylene blue may be contraindicated.

 

[InChristAlone]

I know someone who accidentally was using tianeptine in a solution she thought was idealabs solban but had added it and forgot. She experienced severe side effects and was suicidal from withdrawal. Apparently its structure is similar to opiates.

 

[Constatine]

I know someone who accidentally was using tianeptine in a solution she thought was idealabs solban but had added it and forgot. She experienced severe side effects and was suicidal from withdrawal. Apparently its structure is similar to opiates.

What was her dosage? I am only aware of such side effects when one far exceeds the recommended dose. Nevertheless I will stop recommending this drug. Tianeptine has weak opiate activity via mu receptor.

 

[dookie]

Starchy foods often have insoluble fibre which can ferment in the gut and cause pain and the release of endotoxins. Haidut recently discussed how endotoxin can cause brain issues like aneurisms!

Fruits should be safer because they have mainly soluble fibre. Just be careful with commercial orange juice as they often crush the peel and seeds!

Try large portions of a limited number of ingredients so you can quickly find what improves mood and what wrecks it.

Glycine sounds like a good thing to try, but maybe keep it under 3 teaspoons a day so as not to create an imbalance.

It is important to have a bit of fat with the starch. Not too little, but not too much either. Where is the evidence that starch creates more endotoxin than fruits? I think fruits are more likely to cause endotoxin/allergenic/estrogenic issues, in people with sensitive digestion. Commercial fruits are junk most of the time, even the organic and ripe varieties. A bit of cooked fruit like jam, made from good fruits, can technically be OK, but experimentation is needed to find out what is tolerated best.

 

[InChristAlone]

What was her dosage? I am only aware of such side effects when one far exceeds the recommended dose. Nevertheless I will stop recommending this drug. Tianeptine has weak opiate activity via mu receptor.

She wasn't sure of the dose as she was using it like solban is intended to be used for. But I'm sure it was way too much so if it is recommended it should be with the caveat that small dosage and that there could be severe withdrawal. Which is not uncommon with drugs. I get bad withdrawal from caffeine for instance.

 

[Mad]

@dookie thanks for the suggestions. I think if we take the progesterone route, we would go high-dose initially to prevent increase in estrogen, according to Dr. Peat's instructions with the Progest-E.

@Constatine thanks for the insight. So you're saying that even though the "suggested ranges" of the test are for estrogen to be higher than progesterone, we actually want a balance of progesterone higher than estrogen? This is what I've never understood about these ranges. If estrogen dominance is not a good thing, why do they suggest our estrogen should be higher than progesterone on these tests?
This makes me want to give Protest-E a try even more. Ray said it is basically harmless; an overdose would just give an anesthetic effect, and it would take like a whole bottle at once to do this.
What does the tianeptine do that is different than any other anti-depressant? I'm not sure which one she's on now.
Also, she complained of headaches/pains for a while back when things were worse. I don't think she gets them as often now.

@bloom I appreciate your concern; I agree that "Dr. Internet" can be dangerous, so thanks for looking out for us.
I did, however, say that every suggestion is appreciated so I think a more civil approach to the opposition is called for.
What sort of treatment and intervention was suggested to you in your case from the Walsh Institute? I'm glad you've found something so helpful to you.

@Richiebogie all good advice there, thanks. I was thinking of suggesting adding gelatin to her daily diet; would that be an OK substitute? I'm not up on the advantages/differences.

@Giraffe thanks for your suggestions. I have read things around here where methylene blue is thrown around, but haven't looked into it much. I will read more about it later, thanks. Red light, switching her thyroid medicine, and other such basic thyroid procedures sound like a wonderful start to get her on.

@Janelle525 thanks for sharing your experience. Caution is noted.

 

[bloom]

@dookie thanks for the suggestions. I think if we take the progesterone route, we would go high-dose initially to prevent increase in estrogen, according to Dr. Peat's instructions with the Progest-E.

@Constatine thanks for the insight. So you're saying that even though the "suggested ranges" of the test are for estrogen to be higher than progesterone, we actually want a balance of progesterone higher than estrogen? This is what I've never understood about these ranges. If estrogen dominance is not a good thing, why do they suggest our estrogen should be higher than progesterone on these tests?
This makes me want to give Protest-E a try even more. Ray said it is basically harmless; an overdose would just give an anesthetic effect, and it would take like a whole bottle at once to do this.
What does the tianeptine do that is different than any other anti-depressant? I'm not sure which one she's on now.
Also, she complained of headaches/pains for a while back when things were worse. I don't think she gets them as often now.

@bloom I appreciate your concern; I agree that "Dr. Internet" can be dangerous, so thanks for looking out for us.
I did, however, say that every suggestion is appreciated so I think a more civil approach to the opposition is called for.
What sort of treatment and intervention was suggested to you in your case from the Walsh Institute? I'm glad you've found something so helpful to you.

@Richiebogie all good advice there, thanks. I was thinking of suggesting adding gelatin to her daily diet; would that be an OK substitute? I'm not up on the advantages/differences.

@Giraffe thanks for your suggestions. I have read things around here where methylene blue is thrown around, but haven't looked into it much. I will read more about it later, thanks. Red light, switching her thyroid medicine, and other such basic thyroid procedures sound like a wonderful start to get her on.

@Janelle525 thanks for sharing your experience. Caution is noted.

I have seen people's lives destroyed by bad advice, by the use of the wrong psychiatric medication. This is stuff ought not be taken lightly. They specialise in psychiatric disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar, autism ect. It's a treatment approach which has been going on since the beginning of the 20th century, the research started at that time. It has been ignored by mainstream medicine, but is now being integrated more and more, into medicine. They have a keen focus on epigenetics and psychiatric conditions, if you look at the links I provided they will do a much better job of describing the treatment than I could.

 

[Richiebogie]

Hi @dookie

Here are some Ray Peat quotes discussing endotoxin. He says fruit is best but does caution about pectin, so maybe apples and pears are risky:

"A diet that reduces fermentation and endotoxin, with an abundance of calcium–fruit, milk, and cheese, for example–can help to shift the balance away from lactic acid, estrogen, and serotonin, toward carbon dioxide, progesterone, and thyroid.”

“One of the factors promoting excess cortisol production is intestinal irritation, causing absorption of endotoxin and serotonin. Fermentable fibers (including pectins and fructooligosaccharides) support the formation of bacterial toxins, and can cause animals to become anxious and aggressive. Fed to horses, some types of fiber increase the amount of serotonin circulating in the blood. Grains, beans, and other seeds contain fermentable fibers that can promote intestinal irritation.”

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

Don't give her milk if she can't handle it. You're supposed to work with her not turn her into an unwilling test subject for Ray Peat experimentation.

If she likes gummy bears get her those. Just do what she likes. Fruits, gummy bears, honey, etc.

As far as he mood swings that's definitely estrogenic and possibly due to high cortisol.

I think women who are ovulating but don't have a mate tend to get off balance. I think putting her in a progesterone based mood would take care of that.

The other thing is making sure she's eating enough, going outside, doing what she likes, and is happy in general.

 

[dookie]

@dookie thanks for the suggestions. I think if we take the progesterone route, we would go high-dose initially to prevent increase in estrogen, according to Dr. Peat's instructions with the Progest-E.

Where have you seen Peat say that? Peat has actually said the exact opposite, that progesterone would never product "estrogen detox symptoms". He also said to use physiological doses, 20-30 mg, of progesterone, and only more if good effects are seen. Maybe the people who make the Progest-E have said some things about using high doses.

Just recall, as Peat has said, Progesterone is like insulin, it is a very powerful hormone. If 3 mg give bad side-effects, don't expect 100 mg to produce less side-effects. Except worse side-effects from higher doses, with diminishing benefits.

 

[dookie]

Don't give her milk if she can't handle it. You're supposed to work with her not turn her into an unwilling test subject for Ray Peat experimentation.

If she likes gummy bears get her those. Just do what she likes. Fruits, gummy bears, honey, etc.

As far as he mood swings that's definitely estrogenic and possibly due to high cortisol.

I think women who are ovulating but don't have a mate tend to get off balance. I think putting her in a progesterone based mood would take care of that.

The other thing is making sure she's eating enough, going outside, doing what she likes, and is happy in general.

That is good, balanced advice

 

[Mad]

Where have you seen Peat say that? Peat has actually said the exact opposite, that progesterone would never product "estrogen detox symptoms". He also said to use physiological doses, 20-30 mg, of progesterone, and only more if good effects are seen. Maybe the people who make the Progest-E have said some things about using high doses.

Yes, in the directions included with a bottle of Progest-E:
The minimum maintenance dose of Progest-E oil is 3 drops daily, usually from mid-cycle to menses. Women who have little to no symptoms at all can take this dosage. The more severe your symptoms, the more doses you need. It is recommended that nearly everyone should begin with the high dose directions for 10 days to avoid complications (as low thyroid, high estrogen situations require a high initial dose to avoid progesterone reverting to estrogen).

So this high-dose recommendation is not 100mg; it is 45mg for the first 10 days, then 27mg for another 1-2 weeks, then just 1-2 doses of 9mg each for another few weeks until you feel comfortable going on the maintenance dose of 9mg daily during luteal phase.

 

[miki14]

She would need two hormone tests, in the follicular phase and the luteal phase. To judge estrogen vs progesterone on one test alone is meaningless. Prolactin and CO2 levels can help to interpret estrogen levels. My guesstimation is high estrogen/serotonin. Pregnenolone for estrogen would be a good start. Quinine (Tonic water), cyproheptadine, famotidine are good anti - serotonin agents. Magnesium might help. And if she had problems with milk in the past then it's ok to not drink milk.

 

[Diokine]

I had forgotten about this piece written by Dr. Peat, I read it again recently and it should have some very pertinent information.

A Biophysical Approach to Altered Consciousness

 

[mostlylurking]

I'm not an MD and I don't play one on teevee. However, I did have two schizophrenic siblings and have researched via Ray Peat articles and audio interviews extensively for over two years. Here goes:
1. polyunsaturated oils (PUFA) gum up the works and reduce brain energy and mitochondria energy production. Remove all sources from the diet. Every bit of it. No nuts, no seeds, no grains, no beans.
2. Progesterone is safe and well worth trying. Don't take my word for it and don't take the word of anyone on this forum. Do the research at www.raypeat.com yourself. Listen to the audios at Dr. Ray Peat's Wisdom yourself. This one is worth your time and a good place to start: http://www.westernbotanicalmedicine.com/audio/2012 Dementia, Progesterone, Fasting, Fish Oil, Testosterone, Red Light, Accelerated Learning, Earthing Dec 2012.mp3
3. Clean out the gut and keep it healthy with raw carrot salad every day. It lowers endotoxin and estrogen. Improvement is seen in a matter of days. Eat it every day. Refer to this collection of Ray Peat quotes: Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of the Raw Carrot – Functional Performance Systems (FPS) . Also refer to this collection of Ray Peat quotes on endotoxin: Ray Peat, PhD on Endotoxin – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
4. It is vital to get this person on adequate thyroid supplementation (natural desiccated thyroid, NOT ARMOUR) . T4 supplementation alone is known to cause brain damage because it lowers the level of T3 in the brain. If the estrogen is at all elevated it will keep the liver from converting T4 into T3 and the T4 alone will make the person sicker. That's from Ray Peat, I'm not making this stuff up. Refer to this article: Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud
5. Refer to this article to understand what foods are safe to eat: Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?
6. The hormone tests aren't going to tell you much because the estrogen is bound within the cells and so doesn't show up on the tests. You need to go by the symptoms. Progesterone is supposed to be a LOT higher than estrogen. Dr. Peat says that if there is a serious problem that you are trying to correct that you can take the progesterone every day and simply miss your period for a month or so. Refer to this article: Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone
7. Don't give up hope. Ray Peat offers tremendous wisdom and guidance in this area. If my siblings had been able to benefit from his wisdom 50 years ago their lives might have been saved.

 

[mostlylurking]

It is important to have a bit of fat with the starch. Not too little, but not too much either. Where is the evidence that starch creates more endotoxin than fruits? I think fruits are more likely to cause endotoxin/allergenic/estrogenic issues, in people with sensitive digestion. Commercial fruits are junk most of the time, even the organic and ripe varieties. A bit of cooked fruit like jam, made from good fruits, can technically be OK, but experimentation is needed to find out what is tolerated best.

Starch causes problems by converting quickly to straight glucose with NO fructose to moderate its effects so it spikes insulin and the starch/glucose converts to fat instead of being stored in your liver as glycogen for later use. "Complex carbohydrates" are made up of starch (spikes insulin & makes you fat) and undigestible fiber which feeds the gut bacteria, increasing endotoxin, estrogen, and serotonin. Fruits must be "well ripened" so the sugar content is high. The sugar gets absorbed high up in the intestine so it doesn't feed the gut bacteria. Dr. Peat's favorite safe fruit in the USA is orange juice, no pulp. If you are looking for bulk fiber, eat raw carrot salad. See here: Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of the Raw Carrot – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

 

[dookie]

Starch causes problems by converting quickly to straight glucose with NO fructose to moderate its effects so it spikes insulin and the starch/glucose converts to fat instead of being stored in your liver as glycogen for later use. "Complex carbohydrates" are made up of starch (spikes insulin & makes you fat) and undigestible fiber which feeds the gut bacteria, increasing endotoxin, estrogen, and serotonin. Fruits must be "well ripened" so the sugar content is high. The sugar gets absorbed high up in the intestine so it doesn't feed the gut bacteria. Dr. Peat's favorite safe fruit in the USA is orange juice, no pulp. If you are looking for bulk fiber, eat raw carrot salad. See here: Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of the Raw Carrot – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Many people cannot tolerate even strained sweet orange juice, or raw carrots. What you are saying is nice in theory, but in practice, many people find some starches more tolerable. If you look in the email exchanges, even Peat says that some people cannot tolerate the raw carrot well, so can try boiled mushrooms or other things instead. Peat is also very skeptical of most fruits, realizing the irritating properties of pectin.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

She wasn't sure of the dose as she was using it like solban is intended to be used for. But I'm sure it was way too much so if it is recommended it should be with the caveat that small dosage and that there could be severe withdrawal. Which is not uncommon with drugs. I get bad withdrawal from caffeine for instance.

Solban is used to cover large areas of skin. If she was using it like Solban, it may have been a massive dose.