Asking help for girlfriend, she's on 30 mg of methylphenidate for ADHD and hears voices in her head

Missenger

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Not only alterations in neuroactive steroid levels (Melcangi et al., 2014, 2016; Zorumski et al., 2013) but also changes in hippocampal neurogenesis have been related with depressive-like behaviors (Santarelli et al., 2003; Snyder et al., 2011). Altered hippocampal morphology and reduced hippocampal neurogenesis have been also reported in depressed patients (Hercher et al., 2009; Stockmeier et al., 2004). Interestingly, 6 days of finasteride administration in male C57BL/6N mice were able to decrease the hippocampal neurogenesis (Romer and Gass, 2010; Romer et al., 2010). Recent observations in a rat model have shown that 20 days of treatment induced a decrease of granule cell density in the granular layer of the dentate gyrus in rats showing depressive-like behavior one month after the end of finasteride treatment (Diviccaro et al., 2019) (Fig. 3).

In humans and experimental models, depression has been demonstrated to be associated with neuroinflammation (Yirmiya et al., 2015). Treatment with finasteride also affects this parameter (Fig. 3). Indeed, a significant increase in the number of astrocytes (i.e., cellular mediators of the inflammatory response) in the hilus of the dentate gyrus has been demonstrated one month after the end of the finasteride treatment (Diviccaro et al., 2019). This effect might be ascribed to the elevated levels of DHP observed one month after the end of the finasteride treatment in male rat hippocampus (Giatti et al., 2016). Indeed, in other experimental models, DHP has been demonstrated to increase GFAP gene expression in astrocytes (Melcangi et al., 1996). Reactive gliosis is associated with increased levels of proinflammatory molecules in the brain (Hostenbach et al., 2014; Wang et al., 2018). In agreement, finasteride treatment increased, immediately after the treatment, the expression of TNF-α in male rat hippocampus and, at the withdrawal, that of IL-1β (Diviccaro et al., 2019). It is important to note that both cytokines are increased in plasma of depressed patients and in the brain of animal models for depression (Cheng et al., 2018; Li et al., 2017; Todorovic and Filipovic, 2017; Wang et al., 2018). Dysregulation of the dopamine system may also contribute to major depressive disorders (Belujon and Grace, 2017; Felger, 2017; Grace, 2016). Therefore, in this context it is important to recall that androgens regulate the dopaminergic system in the brain (de Souza Silva et al., 2009; Kindlundh et al., 2004; Mitchell and Stewart, 1989). Interestingly, finasteride treatment (25 and 50 mg/kg for 14 days) inhibited open-field behaviors and reduced contents of dopamine and its metabolites in central nervous system (Li et al., 2018). In addition, finasteride treatment was also able to impair the signaling of dopamine (Devoto et al., 2012; Frau et al., 2016).
Dopamine/Serotonin dysregulation along with GABA would contribute to it. Finasteride is basically poison you can microdose for hair. Pharma has also sold lactic acid before as an anti-fungal cream, which is kind of funny to think about.
 
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Hearing voices is actually quite common, and affects many people. It is also an issue that correlates in frequency with IQ. I remember hearing voices on occasion even before my problems with finasteride, but they certainly increased in severity thereafter. It still can bother me from time to time, especially after partaking in alcohol, although I think of it now almost as background chatter. Ultimately it isn't much more that a manifestation of emotions and how the subconcious feels behavior is or would be percieved by others. I am not sure that had I never taken finasteride, or if I had the "optimal" metabolism, that I wouldn't hear voices, I am fairly sure that it is more of psycho-social or abstract phenomenon rather than strictly biochemical.
Look at things that can up-regulate 5AR like TMG

Idk if Ray opined about TMG yet
 

sladerunner69

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Look at things that can up-regulate 5AR like TMG

Idk if Ray opined about TMG yet

I'm always looking for things that can upregulate 5-ar or can increase the 5-ar reduced steroids. As it turns out, very few things seem to be able to simply "upregulate" 5-ar, in the opposite way that finasteride "downregulates it". Thyroid upregulates it a little, but isn't enough and is too anti-estrogenic in higher dosages for me. To further complicate matters, taking certain 5-ar reduced steroids such as androsterone or DHT seems to downregulate other 5-ar steroids such as allopregnanelone, so it becomes a tedious balancing act.

I will be looking into TMG though, thanks!
 
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I'm always looking for things that can upregulate 5-ar or can increase the 5-ar reduced steroids. As it turns out, very few things seem to be able to simply "upregulate" 5-ar, in the opposite way that finasteride "downregulates it". Thyroid upregulates it a little, but isn't enough and is too anti-estrogenic in higher dosages for me. To further complicate matters, taking certain 5-ar reduced steroids such as androsterone or DHT seems to downregulate other 5-ar steroids such as allopregnanelone, so it becomes a tedious balancing act.

I will be looking into TMG though, thanks!
Have you tried low dose DHEA?

I am looking for more info on TMG (trimethylglycine) , I know Ray likes glycine but wonder wonder what he thinks about the trimethyl - part!
 

PurpleHeart

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Probably some kind of psychosis from the methylphenidate, I know this is an unpopular opinion that is going to get bashed to hell, but I believe that low serotonin can cause this, I believe that serotonin is the "grounding" neurotransmitter that inhibits the dreamlike state of the brain, kids have very low serotonin and are constantly in a dreamlike state, LSD and similar substances cause that too, there is a reason serotonin is released during stress, I believe its action is to stop the dreamlike state and ground you into a "hard cold reality" kind of state, this state is probably useful when you are being attacked by a predator for example, serotonin also causes Jaw clenching which is probably a defense mechanism to make the head structure more compact in anticipation to a blow to the head, some serotonin is probably needed for the brain to be able to differentiate between "Outer Reality" and "Inner Reality", driving it too low with methylphenidate can dismantle this differentiation mechanism and cause the two "states" to intertwine, and this is what our species calls psychosis in my opinion.

Stress is also important, for example the effects of LSD when you are in a happy safe place are very different from when you feel fear, the combination of anxiety and low serotonin is probably bad, high serotonin can cause anhedonia and depression but very low levels can probably make you delusional.

Haidut posted a study of serotinin depletition stopping depression, I agree with that but it only works when the organism feels safe, when the organism perceives a threat, imaginary or otherwise serotonin is needed to ground your attention in the environment around you, so you can scan for threats.

This is all just a theory of course, I'm not presenting this as fact.
 

TheSir

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Spend some time watching Elliot Overton's videos about thiamine: https://www.youtube.com/c/EONutrition/videos

I've learned via these videos that some people have poorly functioning enzyme(s) that require thiamine as a cofactor. It is believed that this is a genetic problem. According to the videos, the solution is to provide high dose thiamine to compensate for the poorly functioning enzyme. It appears to work. Both of my siblings became mentally incapacitated in their late teen's and heard voices. I suspect that it was due to this genetic glitch. My own health history includes many issues that could have been caused by thiamine deficiency.

watch this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-dXJCYVIM


Please note that a B-complex is a good idea to take when supplementing with high dose thiamine, along with supplementing some magnesium. Although Elliot Overton likes TTFD thiamine best, I found that I could not tolerate it and so I supplement with thiamine hcl instead. I take 2 grams/day of it and it has helped me a lot.

I think niacinamide is much better to take than niacin. Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

There is information on line that thiamine lowers serotonin; if true, it makes sense that a thiamine deficiency could exacerbate elevated serotonin and make the person vulnerable to serotonin syndrome.
see: Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter
and: Vitamin B1, anti-estrogenic, pro-DHT, anti-serotonin, pro-dopamine » MENELITE

If thiamine HCL gave one nausea at 100 mg, would such reaction point to an underlying deficiency?
 

TheSir

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I know a girl who took the copper IUD and developed paranoid anxiety disorder after a year of using it.
She just googled for copper IUD and psychiatric illness and found tons of people having the same experience. Luckily she did connect the dots and fixed the underlying mineral toxicity and with it the mental illness.

I think methylation issues arise from mineral dysregulation or toxicity.
The methylation treatments (like niacinamide) might not necessarily fix the underlying cause, but they help with dealing with the symptoms to a great deal. (quenching the excess methyl groups caused by copper toxicity for example)
Do you know if having old copper pipes could over time cause copper toxicity? I often use the same water cup without washing for multiple days in a row (did I mention I'm disgustingly lazy?), and I've noticed that after several days of use the inner edges of the cup would be stained with a cyan layer of copper at the height where the surface of the water would usually reside. Could this be enough to cause problems?
 

youngsinatra

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Do you know if having old copper pipes could over time cause copper toxicity? I often use the same water cup without washing for multiple days in a row (did I mention I'm disgustingly lazy?), and I've noticed that after several days of use the inner edges of the cup would be stained with a cyan layer of copper at the height where the surface of the water would usually reside. Could this be enough to cause problems?
Yes I think copper pipelines can cause problems with copper toxicity.
 

mostlylurking

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If thiamine HCL gave one nausea at 100 mg, would such reaction point to an underlying deficiency?
I don't know. I always tolerated it very well, even large doses. Dr. Costantini treated thousands of patients with it and said that all but one person tolerated it very well. The exception was one woman who vomited when given high dose thiamine hcl, even when the dose was cut in half (probably to 500mg/dose).

Thiamine is known to use up magnesium so it is possible your reaction is pointing to a magnesium issue? I don't know.
 

TheSir

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Thiamine is known to use up magnesium so it is possible your reaction is pointing to a magnesium issue?
That's possible. I also get heart palpitations/skipped beats from vitamin D, which could alike result from magnesium deficiency (possibly potassium too). Though, I actively supplement with >400mg of magnesium every day. Do you know if thiamine and potassium could be related?
 

milkboi

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This dude is pretty anti-peat. He promotes serotonin as estrogen as protective. Advocates using SSRIs, blames the androgens for causing all sorts of issues. Not sure if you meant to post that on this forum
I'm not a fan of him advocating SSRIs and yes, he's criticizes androgens but mostly in supraphysiological doses as he has a lot of viewers that use them as PEDs.
Not sure if you meant to post that on this forum
Because Leo doesn't agree with everything Peat teaches? That's laughable. I'm sure Peat cites studies of authors which have differing opinions to his on certain topics
 

mostlylurking

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That's possible. I also get heart palpitations/skipped beats from vitamin D, which could alike result from magnesium deficiency (possibly potassium too). Though, I actively supplement with >400mg of magnesium every day. Do you know if thiamine and potassium could be related?
I've learned recently that supplementing vitamin D can cause b vitamin deficiencies; I suspect thiamine would be affected, a b-complex was suggested to solve the problem. This was in a video of a sleep expert talking about how much vitamin D helped her patients, but then they would get into trouble due to induced "B deficiencies". It is my understanding that high dose thiamine supplementation can deplete potassium. I drink orange juice for the potassium.
 

Scarytrout

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I just went down a little rabbit trail that was kind of interesting. I was listening to a podcast. It's called mysterious universe, they talk about fringe topics. They're respectful enough of the original content to read it, detached enough to discuss it with humor, and have been at this long enough to draw comparisons to other content. It's amusing to listen to. Anyhow they said something about voices, so I was drawn in a bit. They spoke of a guy named Carl A. Wickland M.D.. The story was curious and entertaining. I don't buy into the practice of wickland, or the narrative presented except that he seemed to get results and the peculiar fact that was using an electric shock device in his work. I distilled this down to search terms that would likely intersect relevant content; ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) and Psychosis.

From the Wikipedia source links I found this:


Electroconvulsive Therapy Improves Persistent Psychosis After Repeated Use of Methylenedioxypyrovalerone (“Bath Salts”)


From the last line of the abstract: This report adds to evidence for efficacy of electroconvulsive therapy in the management of stimulant-induced persistent psychotic symptoms

So, that constitutes a consistent theme from a source less influenced by mysticism. I don't like the mystical element other than that it's testament to someone having an experience that they find compelling. I also think that story plays a crucial role in how we experience life, we think of life like a story, we think of history as stories, we even dream stories. It's not necessary to believe the whole mystic narrative presented by wickland as presented. But the experiences described could be described in low resolution as stories that basically describe a narrative of a psychotic state resolving to a non psychotic state.

I find ECT to be excessive and inconvenient. The good news is that Wickland's device was not likely to be as extreme as ECT.

Another thing I found interesting about Wickland was that he described the spirits as "vagabonds" which sort of resonates with my experience of voices, especially in the early years of my psychosis, where voices and other hallucinations seemed presented by entities passing through. Especially immersive dreams and hypnagogia/hypnapompc experiences, seemed to be 'presented' by roving entities.

I'd have to check, but I think that Wickland started using the electric shocks expanding upon the idea that pain drove away voices. Apparently there was attention in his time to a phenomenon in which people experienced a relief from psychosis after experiencing pain, like in a dental context.

I thought maybe I'd find more info about Wickland's device. That has proven to be sort of obscure. There are plenty of shocking prank toys out there, it might be interesting to try building a bit of a tolerance to these shocks. I also found THIS anecdote when searching about wickland. I searched for a gadget like the one that guy described his father as having toyed with. There are 'Caja de Toques' devices from Mexico that fit the description. I'll have to see if there is more to read about them. They are marketed as anti-stress therapy devices, I'm thinking that they are used more used the way people touch those electric bug swatters on YouTube.

As common as pain, electric shocks, and psychosis are, there are likely to be noteworthy anecdotes to gleam from at that intersection.

anyhow, I found that little rabbit trail to be fun. I ordered a shock lighter for a souvenir. If my curiosity persists maybe I'll look into a Caja de Toques device.
 
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I'm not a fan of him advocating SSRIs and yes, he's criticizes androgens but mostly in supraphysiological doses as he has a lot of viewers that use them as PEDs.

Because Leo doesn't agree with everything Peat teaches? That's laughable. I'm sure Peat cites studies of authors which have differing opinions to his on certain topics
No I meant you're not going to get as many knowledgeable people on this matter and tons of folks don't really support SSRIs, what part of Peat does he agree with?
 

Missenger

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Yes I think copper pipelines can cause problems with copper toxicity.
People on this forum were talking about copper vs plastic pipe toxicity (studies showing leeched plastic pipes feeding cancer) safety years ago, people are basically choosing between copper and plastic nowadays unless there's stainless steel or iron pipes still available somehow.
 
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Daniil

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I found reading this thread interesting, so I feel the need to reopen this old discussion. I recently had a psychotic episode that lasted almost a month and was hospitalized. This is doubly insulting, because before that I finally achieved normal health, but haloperidol spoiled me. I now have anhedonia again, which can also be described as an ADHD/impatient condition. I would really like to get rid of this.

I had voices and I'm sure it's certainly not part of me. This, I think, must be experienced in order to understand. What they say is meaningful information and they are very smart and cunning. Because of this, I'm definitely not an atheist anymore. I talked to different entities, it was different (sometimes good, sometimes bad) communication. Some presented themselves as my karmic entities (they are clearly evil), others as fairies. There were at least four of them. I received a lot of interesting information during my psychosis. I am also very surprised why I behaved absolutely inadequately (now I am normal again). I have a feeling that some kind of energy was going through me, and because of this I could not perceive reality normally. It seems like if you are constantly shock you, you will not be adequate (continuous only). But it's just a feeling.
 
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