Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth And Diet

Discussion in 'Diet' started by Zpol, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. Zpol

    Zpol Member

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    So, I have been following a Peat style diet for several weeks, plus I am taking a combo of T3 and T4. I have Hypothyroid, PCOS, Raynauds, and Small intestine bacteria overgrowth. I had been originally only taking Rx progesterone every 3 months, now I take Progest-E. Anyway, my PCOS has improved... I now get regular periods, so that's good. And my TSH Blood work is now good as well. I still have lowish body temp and low Blood pressure.

    My diet dilemma is that my digestion works fabulously on a very low carb diet but I know this type of diet is not good for thyroid issues. I've suffered with severe constipation everyday for the last 20yrs, plus I have a lot bloating and abdominal pain. Low carb solved this!! I was astounded!! But I couldn't continue it because I was peeing every single hour and literally nearly passed out 3 times on this diet. Now I found out that these side effects are avoidable on the low carb diet and I'm tempted to go back to it. Currently, I'm using Cascara, massive doses of magnesium, and even doing that I still have to use enemas 4x a week in order to function enough to keep up with work, house upkeep, etc. These methods of elimination are not fun and kind of painful, plus the cascara is unpredictable. So you can see why it's tempting to go back to low carb. I am extremely ill due to the SIBO; it's affecting my work, my social life, family life, everything.

    On the Peat diet, I've been eating coffee, gelatin, cheese, potatoes (boiled for 40+ min.), gelato, lots of salt, chocolate, OJ, applesauce, pickles (supposedly helps w/ digestion), raw carrots, small amounts of Macadamia nuts and coconut oil. No meat.

    I should mention that I only eat about 10 to 13 oz. of potatoes per day because they cause extreme gas and uncomfortableness... which makes me think they are contributing to my bacterial overgrowth in my small intestine.

    I've gained about 13 lbs on this diet so that probably helped with me finally getting a period. I used to only be 93 lbs.

    So, this is my quandary... Dr. Peat says it's extremely important to reduce bacteria overgrowth in the intestines, which I can do on a low carb diet, but, a low carb diet is not good for liver, thyroid, etc.. So I'm not sure what to do.

    I also take niacinamide, cream of tartar, and enzymes.

    Can anyone help?
     
  2. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    A RP quote from Danny Roddy email advice page

    You can experiment with avoiding all starch for few days and see how it feels.
    Applesauce, OJ, potato all have good amount of pectin, which can cause a lot
    of problems if you have bad bacteria.
    Milk tends to help with elimination.
    Chocolate causes problem for many.
    Experimentation is the way to figure out which foods are causing problems.
    Histamine in old cheese can cause digestion problem.
    If you have problem digesting milk you have to use other source of carbohydrate.
    I have seen some people tolerate well cooked rice more than other sources of starch.
    I believe it is the lack of soluble fiber in white rice that helps people with bad bacteria.
    Pure sugar should be easy to digest and it is free of allergen.
    You can try pure sugar as a source of carbohydrate if it does not cause any digestion problem.
    Adding vegetable and fruit broth can compensate for the lack of nutrient in sugar.
    If gelatin is not digested properly it feeds bacteria. It would be to good to see
    if removing gelatin improves digestive problems.
     
  3. OP
    Zpol

    Zpol Member

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    Thank you for the reply.
    I do realize that all these foods I am eating are probably causing worsening of the bacteria overgrowth.
    I know pectin is a biggy, but other fruits don't digest well for me either. Milk causes me to have severe gastric reflux and heartburn, I've tried lactose free, goat milk, various different brands of milk...none works well for me.
    Rice is out, I'm not sure what it is about rice but when I eat it my flesh hurts starting at my neck through my torso, including certified gluten free.
    Experimentation is indeed the key but I don't know a single food that I CAN tolerate so I'm just not sure what to use as a baseline.
    I can try vegetable broth and fruit broth but I don't think that will supply a significant amount of calories or carbohydrates.
    Starch, fruit, chocolate, are probably not helping but this is my conundrum... I need the carbs but I can't digest them. Diabetes runs in my family so I'm not sure I want to eat straight up sugar or white rice. Maybe Coconut sugar? Do you know if that would be a good one?
    Gelatin is my primary source of protein, if I cut that out how can I get enough protein. I know meat causes inflammation plus it too is hard to digest.
    I've posted on many forums, talked to many nutritionists, talked to doctors, talked to other people, they all tell me what I should NOT eat and it turns out it is everything?!
    Is there anyone who can tell me what I SHOULD eat to make up about 1600-1800 calories per day.
     
  4. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    I suggested broth for vitamin and minerals, not calories. Half an hour of boiling can leach up to 50 percent of potassium into broth, which is very useful in managing blood sugar level.

    Are you saying that from experience or you heard it from someone?
    I have experienced and read that meat improves digestion.
    You only have to be careful about avoiding old meat. Fresh meat is ideal.

    If you read RP's articles you will realize that sugar does not cause diabetes.
    It is PUFA that causes diabetes. According to RP Sugar improves diabetes
    compared to starch. Idea is to fix digestive system so one can eat variety of food.
    It is useful to eat food that does not cause digestive problem until digestive system is healed .

    Hydrolyzed gelatin is very easy to digest. Other forms of gelatine cause
    digestion problem for many. If someone really wants to experiment
    he/she can just skip gelatine for few days and know if gelatine is a problem or not.
    Knowing is very important. Once you know then you can find out alternatives.
    In most cases it takes a day to figure out if a food is problematic or not.
     
  5. OP
    Zpol

    Zpol Member

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    I've tried the skipping various kinds of foods for days/weeks, including gelatin. And there has not been one single day when I have been able to have a normal bowel movement. With one exception... when I first started taking prescription thyroid meds, I was able to have regular bm's but that only lasted a few months (the best ever few months of my entire life!)...but anyway the effect wore off!?(I was eating vegan at that time, lots of raw veg. and beans) My Dr. upped my dose and switched me to another brand and again I felt better for awhile and then had a huge crash, now I'm worse than before.

    This made me think thyroid is the key. But ... now my blood work is in ideal range for TSH, my morning temp is 97.8, ranges from 97.7 to 97.9 throughout the day, and I am getting regular periods so I think my cells are getting enough thyroid hormone... but I am still having digestion issues so I guess it was just a fluke.

    But I think I get your point. I will go back to eating meat and switch to hydrolyzed gelatin. To answer your question about meat and inflammation... I have read it, heard it from others, and experienced a worsening of my own symptoms when consuming a lot of meat, but, I was also eating fruit with it so again maybe it was the fruit?!
    It's not as easy as just skipping so-and-so food for a while because you have to replace it with something, or risk not getting enough micro or macro nutrients which can be a problem in and of itself, and then you don't know if it's the food you just used to replace the other food that's causing the problem.

    I do see that PUFA causes diabetes. Which is another question... Meat/eggs are fairly high in PUFA so shouldn't I try to avoid it for that reason? Or should I just buy fat free/low fat meat? I can only find low fat chicken. I can't find grass fed low fat beef. Is salmon ok?

    I do appreciate your help!
     
  6. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    Salmon and other fatty fish are considered high sources of pufas.
    If you like seafood then white fish such as Cod and sole are good. also shellfish like shrimp,mussels,scallops,oysters are ok.:)

    But id never heard of fruitbroth before! How do you make it/what do you put in it and what does it taste like?:)
    Id also never heard of pho before,but after seeing it being mentioned on forums i googled it and the broth spicesbase mix seem to be tasty and not the usual brothtaste/recipe.
     
  7. j.

    j. Guest

    Some meats are high in PUFA, others aren't. Beef, lamb, deer, sheep are low in PUFA. Chicken, pork, are typically high in PUFA.

    Eggs have 0.7 grams of PUFA, but good minerals and vitamins, and they have an overall positive effect.
     
  8. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    Nutritiondata.com is an excellent source for finding all the nutritional information
    including PUFA. Fat trimmed beef has very little PUFA.
    RP recommends 1-2 eggs per day for it's PUFA content.
    In egg Vitamin A and other nutrient outweighs the PUFA.
    Egg white is allergenic for many, and egg yolk is relatively safer.
    2 large eggs have about about 1.2 grams of PUFA.
    Weekly serving of liver provides lots of Vitamin A and other nutrient.
    He mentioned that PUFA below 4 grams is protective against cancer.
    I use 4 grams as my daily limit.
    http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dai ... ucts/111/2
    Salmon is high in PUFA.
    He recommends muscle meat only with gelatine to balance
    anti thyroid protein in muscle meat.
    Old meat are high in histamine and other things that causes digestion problem.
    Muscle meat is also high in phosphorus.
    If you rely on muscle meat and gelatin you have to add
    extra calcium to balance phosphorus. You can use
    egg shell powder or other source of calcium carbonate.
    Phosphorus to calcium ideally should be 1:1
    If you do not have any problem with hydrolyzed gelatin
    then you can use it as a major source of protein with some
    muscle meat.
    Digestion improves with thyroid function.
    RP has said that hypothyroidism causes SIBO in many.
    This is why he recommends sugar as major source of carbohydrate.
    Sugar ( lactose, sucrose, fructose) are digested at the upper part of
    intestine and thus keeps it away from bacteria. This does not happen
    with starch and fiber. Here is a thread on general dietary guideline.
    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20
     
  9. j.

    j. Guest

    Even regular beef, with fat, has very little PUFA.
     
  10. OP
    Zpol

    Zpol Member

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    This is all very helpful, thank you. I think I can formulate a good elimination diet from this info. Hopefully I will be able add in dairy and fruit eventually, but, until then can you tell me... does this diet provide enough micronutrients other than the ones mentioned in your posts?

    I ask because it seems to me that dairy and fruit (esp. OJ), play an essential role in RP diet due their various micronutrients and other nutrients.

    Or are you saying that the vegetable broth would provide these nutrients? I don't see how this would be easier to digest than the veggies themselves since the molecules that the bacteria feed on (FODMAPshttp://www.cassandraforsythe.com/blog/complete+fodmap+list+for+a+happy+gut) are water-soluble so will leach out into water-based broth. Unless I used spinach and celery which are low FODMAP. Of course I would continue to eat the raw carrot.
    I see that only only carrot and bamboo shoot are RP recommended, are spinach and celery detrimental?
     
  11. NooMoahk

    NooMoahk Member

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    I've yet to post my experiences on this forum yet, but here is one of them.

    To overcome my chronic constipation(all I ever knew) I had to eat, more or less, fiber free for a couple months. Then I had to do the daily raw carrot salad for over a month and eat pretty low fiber from then on. It's been around 7 or 8 months and I'm still pooping 6-7 days of each week, sometimes 3 times a day(the power of coffee). Who would have thought those "healthy" vegetables were stopping progress. After healing I can eat well cooked potatoes too, something that didn't digest well at all during my low carb days.

    As far as diet specifics I basically lived on a little raw beef, a lot of home squeezed OJ, a lot raw goat's milk, a RIDICULOUS amount of raw honey, a little white rice, and of course coconut oil(both refined and virgin). Since then my diet has evolved but I can tell you that ripe watermelon, peeled dates, and haagen dazs are all helpful if my intestines are feeling a bit lazy. Good luck and may raw vegetables be damned.
     
  12. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    The website you posted recommends against honey, lactose and fructose.
    Their recommendation is going to be conflicting with RP's recommendations.
    I am not saying vegetable broth will provide all the nutrient.
    Spinach and celery both are goitrogens.
    Young summer squash and young potatoes are low in starch
    and he recommends these. He also recommends fruit vegetables like
    tomato, pepper ( avoided if one has problem with nightshade family
    potato is also part of this family) and cucumber.
    there are only few vegetables he recommends.
    He strongly recommends cooked potato juice for
    people with digestion problem. But not everyone in forum
    had good experience with cooked potato juice.
    But some did get very good result.
    There is a thread on potato juice in the forum.
    You can use cronometer to track your nutrient intake.
     
  13. aquaman

    aquaman Member

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    What about: eggs, shellfish, white fish, bone broths (replace this for the gelatin powder if you have digestion issues), liver, etc?
     
  14. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    Potatos can be beneficial......if you boil them well and than let them cool, sit in the fridge or the pan for a day and then eat them(heated or not) the amounts of resistant starch has increased.
    Resistant starch feeds good gut bacteria,as does soluble fiber.....you need good gutbacteria to keep the bad guys in check.

    I also have heard from several people that beetjuice and/or plums(juice) is supposed to alleviate constipation. Just don't freak out when your urine is pink-purplish from the beetjuice,it's normal.
     
  15. NooMoahk

    NooMoahk Member

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    These may help, but I'd try carefully. In my case even soluble fiber seemed to ferment readily, and worsened my constipation. Plum juice(be it the sorbitol, soluble fiber, or whatever) actually made things worse for me. Beets did help though so perhaps they don't ferment as readily, like carrots. Same with the resistant starch, which I tried. White rice which had been in the fridge for a day was a lot harder to digest than fresh hot rice, though I only tried 3 times. It seems that my immune system did a better job mopping up reduced numbers than trying to enlist the help of random "good" bacteria. Not that I don't think "good" bacteria are important, but for me they couldn't get a foothold until I reduced fiber under 2 grams for awhile(soluble, insoluble, and also indigestible sugars). Think "low residue", it might help. Chewing my food basically to liquid seems to help as well.
     
  16. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    @Dutchie
    Resistant starch feeds both good and bad bacteria.
    If someone has bad bacteria balance, ingestion of resistant starch
    will worsen condition. Here is a RP quote on starch
    Here is an old thread on potato and resistant starch.
    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=428&start=50
     
  17. OP
    Zpol

    Zpol Member

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    Thank you NooMoahk! that gives me hope! Although, can't get raw milk or meat where I live. I'll stick with the low fiber though for sure. Resistant starch was not helpful for me either.

    Bone broth has high amounts of glutamate (similar to MSG) so I don't eat it. I'll try the hydrolyzed gelatine.

    I think fructose may be one of the problems for me as well. So I'm not sure I'd want to honey and OJ in my elimination diet.
    What about dextrose? Anyone know if that's a good one? (it's pure glucose, it digest far up in the GI tract, never makes it to the small intestine)
     
  18. NooMoahk

    NooMoahk Member

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    I think the dextrose is worth a try since it's a monosaccharide. What sort of symptoms have seemed correlated to fructose? It's tricky because eating a fruit means eating more than just fructose. The gelatine is probably a good idea too, it felt relaxing when I ate more than 2 tablespoons(dissolved in hot water). Lastly, a "low residue" diet may cause temporary constipation since your colon might be used to moving more matter. Should this persist(the colon should adapt, in theory) the raw carrot is your best friend.

    The raw approach is my own personal thing, I couldn't tell you if it made a difference being raw or not. It could potentially help though since less vitamins are lost to heat and therefore you may not eat as much matter(less for bacteria to eat). I think things that require cooking would generally be harder for you to breakdown(hence the need for heat) and low fiber fruit, meat, milk, honey, etc don't require it. So it could very well be coincidence that the things I buy raw just happen to be easier to digest.

    How old are you, out of curiosity? I am 20 and had this issue all my life so don't lose hope.
     
  19. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    @zpol yes. Ive heard that too about the gelatine and glutamate,but it shouldnt be a problem if you dont cook the bones any longer than 3hours.
    I dont know how gelatinpowder is made,but theres a good chance its cooked longer than 3hours so youd be off worse.

    Also you mentioned fruitbroth,i had mever heard of it before. How do you make it?
     
  20. OP
    Zpol

    Zpol Member

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    NooMohahk; I'm 35. I've had this as long as I remember. At about 16ish I found out that it wasn't normal that I was only having bowel movements every couple weeks. Needless to say I was a very sickly child. It continued to get worse and worse.
    I would do anything to get over this already!...well just about anything. As for the low carb thing; I just can't seem to do it for very long. Partly due to what I know about the dangers of it and partly because it makes me have to pee every hour and nearly pass out, but it does get rid of the constipation.

    I understand what you mean about raw foods...makes sense for sure, and I've done some research on it. Wish I had some reliable sources, I'll just have to hope for the best with cooked.

    I think fructose may be a problem because the 2 weeks that I went low carb I eliminated all fructose (all carbs in general actually) and did have improvement. But indeed, it could be the fiber in the fruit. Also, I have extreme bloating from watermelon and cherries which are known to be high fructose.

    I suppose the best bet would be keep it at dextrose (pure glucose) as my only carb (and raw carrot although I'll probably just eat one per day) for a couple weeks, see how that goes, and then try adding in other carbs like fresh OJ and honey, and check again for a raw milk source.

    And I suppose I should attempt to cook bone broth (I don't know how and I do not enjoy cooking, another reason why raw sounds more appealing!LOL).
    Does anyone know; is chicken soup okay? My mom showed me how to make this but she puts the whole chicken in the pot (well I mean one of the frozen ones from the supermarket, doesn't contain the head, feet, or gizzards), so the meat is still on the bones while it cooks...is it necessary for the bones to be boiled separately?

    thanks much!
     
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