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My Dilemma After 5 Years Of "Peating"

Discussion in 'Diet' started by frant26, Dec 17, 2018.

  1. fradon

    fradon Member

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    stress and hormones are the biggest factor for weightloss and health. your hormones could be off.
     
  2. TeaRex14

    TeaRex14 Member

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    Your diet looks good, do you eat liver, eggs, shellfish? Those are the best choices for nutrients. Liver and eggs are the richest sources of choline too, which is essential for liver health. Do you actually feel good when you take thyroid, or are you just taking it because you assume you need to? Thyroid is not always a "one size fits all" kind of deal, some people actually feel worse when taking thyroid. Ive heard of several people complaining about the puffiness you described from supplementing thyroid. If you aren't noticing improvements when you take it then laying off for a few days and seeing how you feel might be worth it. Prolactin elevation can usually be managed with good amounts of vitamin B6 and zinc. You also described some telltale signs of estrogen dominance as well. Eating aromatase inhibitors like oranges juice, guavas, celery, parsley, carrot salad, cooked mushrooms, supplementing vitamin E, and getting plenty of protein (animal protein) will help. Also red light, or sunlight, can both help increase progesterone & testosterone and help balance the progesterone/estrogen ratio. It sounds like most of your problems are associated with hormonal imbalances.
     
  3. RWilly

    RWilly Member

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    I think the iron load of red meat is hugely problematic. Particularly if you have a bacterial infection.
     
  4. mayweatherking

    mayweatherking Member

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    just out of curiosity, how much calcium/magniesum are you eating or what is your vitamin D now? prolactin is really high dude, 20 is way high. whats ur primary goto protein?
     
  5. mayweatherking

    mayweatherking Member

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    omg this post is so annoying. i must have read this 1000x on this forum. RAY PEAT IS NOT A DIET. guys it's not a diet.

    YES IT IS A DIET. high calcium, drinking milk all the time, avoiding pufa, that is called a diet. if you can't eat it, that means you are allergic to something, that doesn't mean it isn't a diet.
     
  6. Rafe

    Rafe Member

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    @frant26
    One piece of the puzzle you asked about is why other people appear perfectly healthy (whatever we’ll mean by that), well adjusted, happy, vital even if from our view they should be sick, fatigued, & depressed.

    I think that is due to the anesthetizing qualities of adrenaline & stress hormones (“I run ultramarathons to get those endorphins going!”), and the cultural environment (medicine, too) that makes that state seem virtuous, best, contributing to health & longevity.

    Plenty of people even into their 80s seem healthy & high on vitality. Their doctors love their numbers. They may even report sleeping very soundly.

    But that’s the thing about the stress hormones: they are deceptive, & they feel fantastic. And people with strong constitutions can live a long time that way.

    It doesn’t mean that they couldn’t be better, which is not something that can be proven. In oldest old age then these same people often get symptoms “typical of aging” as an independent effect: easy bruising (leaky capillaries), a kind of frantic anxiety, inflexibility, worry, mild high blood pressure. Vulnerability to degenerative states (proto-diabetes, emaciation, stroke, osteoporosis), so on.

    But isn’t this what RP’s papers want readers to question? There is no absolute state to attain, but like others have said, the whirlwind of atoms metaphor is cool b/c we are continually operating our orienting reflex, adjusting moment by moment, day by day. And I think it has already been mentioned, it goes something like, “you don’t understand anything until you understand everything.” A little exaggerated, but the principle is good.
     
  7. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    When I was lifting I had chronically high cortisol.

    "stress hormones feel fantastic" This, in my opinion is another forum misconception. I really have to argue this because it absolutely didn't feel good to me.

    It does feel high energy and you're able to push yourself and your body responds to what you ask of it, but you also feel wired and have unrestful sleep and it's almost impossible to feel inner peace or happiness.

    High cortisol depletes both serotonin and dopamine as far as I'm aware. Low cortisol is just as bad, if not worse - your body will regulate cortisol once dietary and lifestyle equilibrium have been found, it's not something to hack in my view.

    The people OP mentions simply have the fortune of not getting a low level infection and/or had ample time to recover from their stressors, or even never faced long term stress.

    People that are health conscious often get the sickest because they develop and employ self discipline in their healing process and that leads to worsening things. Most health guidelines tend to involve pushing oneself and labelling foods as either good or bad instead of something dynamic.
     
  8. Waremu

    Waremu Member

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    I have been 'Peating' since 2012, so I have quite a few years of experimentation within the Peat framework as a reference of what did and didn't work for me. First few years were kind of a touch adjustment, most likely due to the process of slowly 'detoxing' PUFA from my body as I went low PUFA cold turkey since beginning Peating. I would say I noticed improvements more 2+ years going into 'Peating', as I became more grounded on what worked for me. I think for most people it will take a few years of adjustment into Peating depending on where their health started, due to a number of factors including PUFA tissue half life being 2-2.5 years, getting macros right, stress down, etc.

    But my experience actually matches the experience of the two others on this thread that seem to adhere to Peats principles more seriously than others may, etc. I find that when I go astray and start experimenting with other things and move away from Peat principles even to some degree, my health worsens, including my hair and sleep. It seems that remaining quite strict to the Peat principles is the only thing that has worked for me. There were times when I was new to this and got frustrated and thought it wasn't working, but then learned there were things I wasn't doing right and could do better. As weird as it may sound to some, the more 'perfect' I try to stick to Peats principles, the best I do. And it stays that was constantly. Some of the mistakes I made and adjustments I made which turned things around include (some of these were already listed by others so I agree with them that it was the same for me):

    Have a small meal every 3-4 hours at least.

    Don't ever rely on just plain white sugar as main carb source, and when I do have sugar, I add in the missing magnesium and other nutrients which I would normally get with whole food carb sources by having coffee, etc. A strong coffee is very high in magnesium, etc. Raw milk and coffee both are actually high in good nutrients, so sugar with these foods usually isn't a problem and works well for me.

    Try to get at least 4-6 oz of fresh orange juice per day for magnesium and other nutrients. Pineapple juice also agrees with me well, as does fresh grape juice. I disagree with the poster who said not to rely on juices and stimulants. Thats not what Peat advocates. He says that juices and caffeine in the right context are anti-stress and that has been my experience. However, some people have a lot of healing to do from years of PUFA, stress, etc. And I don't believe years or decades of that can just be reversed totally in a few years. For me, it took 3-4 years until I really understood how to apply Peat's principles in my life. There is also no perfect state, but all we can do is strive for the most optimal state, IMO. We know we are at optimal state by objective metrics like quality of sleep, energy level, mental clarity, body temp. and pulse, hair quality, muscle to fat percentage, etc.

    Keep carb to protein ratio at 2:1-3:1. I do best on 3:1. Peat also says 3:1 is ideal.

    Don't eat too little or no salt. More liquids usually means a need for more salt to offset that. Salt in my experience is a life saver.

    Get enough calcium and Vitamin D and K to keep prolactin low. I find that it's almost impossible to keep my prolactin lowest without quality milk. Raw A-2 milks is best for me. Vitamin A too.

    I try to get at least one egg per day for the choline and extra biotin (milk also adds good amounts of choline). These eggs come from a local organic farm that doesn't feed it seeds or PUFA's. So it is lower in PUFA than commercial eggs.

    Plenty of zinc is essential. Don't be afraid of some iron as well. Oysters at least 1-3 times per week works best for me. I do eat meat, but only once and sometimes twice per weak. Mostly Gelatin, raw milk, egg, and oysters are my protein sources. I try to get gelatin with 3 of my 4 meals at least. In my experience, it seems zinc/selenium are the two things I see people underdo when Peating the most.

    I eat my Vitamin K2, D, and A supplement with my highest fat meal. Liver a few times per week too. Dissicated liver sometimes as well for convenience.

    Starch I don't do well with at all. No matter how many times I tried to reintroduce it, if I eat it more than 1-2 times in a row, my gut gets messed up, I get heart burn, and sleep issues and hair quality goes down. The only starch I can handle in moderation is white rice that was soaked and cooked traditionally (boiled like pasta). Sugar/honey/maple syrup, and plenty of fruit are my main carb sources and I do best with that.

    Carrots are essential for me. I had to learn the hard way through the years.

    I usually juice my fruits and sometimes make smoothies with fruit, but the only whole fruits I will eat are dates for convenience. I seem to handle dates very well. They are loaded with magnesium so it is a great way to get some in extra magnesium in your diet.

    Plenty of sunlight per day. I make it a mission to at least get some even when busy.

    If you one has weight to lose, going low fat may be the best until they lose the weight, especially to prevent fatty liver. I think people who have healing to do and are new to Peat may worsen their liver if they go high carb with high fat. Especially if they haven't been restricting PUFA.
     
  9. Andman

    Andman Member

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    good to see you back, how are you doing these days?

    agree on prolactin being high - we know its basically a direct dopamine antagonist as well as a sign that serotonin and estrogen are too high. all of that could explain a lot of OPs problems
     
  10. OP
    frant26

    frant26 Member

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    I enjoyed your post and I think I agree. But how do you explain the loads of studies that clearly show how thyroid (just an example) has fixed a lot of problems for a lot of people? So while it might not be a cause of health, it can certainly promote it in some people. I'm confused as why it doesn't really worked for me (except lowering the TSH number). Or maybe it did, and without it I would've been worse off, who knows. Time to stop and see what happens.

    Definitely. I'm guilty of that.

    Again - a lot of studies on thyroid, aspirin and caffeine have shown a lot of improvements on a lot of people. I don't want to be anti-something but rather keep those in my toolbox and know when it's appropriate to take, and when it isn't.

    +1

    It probably doesn't matter, but I knew that a low-stress life, sunlight, etc were good for health before discovering Peat. I think a lot of people eating different diets recognize this.

    +1

    I feel no difference. Probably because I don't pay proper attention.

    +1

    My hormones ARE off.
     
  11. OP
    frant26

    frant26 Member

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    I take it because I assume I need to. I mean, it's not that I forget a dose and I feel worse. Taking thyroid has lowered my TSH, and it has removed that horrible cloudheaded feeling. At least I think it was the thyroid, maybe it helped with sugar regulation. Temperatures in the afternoon are higher on average than before. I'm just as fat as before. I don't notice any other changes.

    I appreciate the advice, but I have really tried everything you mention. Artificial lighting - I have no idea. I passed one winter shining red light, incandescents and all that, had a "perfect" diet, and still felt like ***t. Sunlight is amazing and it makes a huge postive difference – but not always available.

    How do I know if I have a bacterial infection? Like what?

    If I get into my 80s high on vitality and sleep soundly, I'll take the stress hormones right now!

    Some of them never faced long term stress, some of them probably do. My point was: they don't follow Peat principles necessarily, therefore on average they should be doing way worse. I mean – they don't spend hours every day weighing milligrams of 8 different powders and chugging down gallons of milk and sugar, and they eat beans and pizza and PUFAs! So they should really be doing much worse relative to the effort they put in.

    Totally agree.

     
  12. OP
    frant26

    frant26 Member

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    That's awesome. I wish I could feel such a difference. It doesn't make any to me.

    Yes that probably was my first mistake, but dude, it's been 5 years eating ~pretty much~ the good stuff. Sunlight is fantastic and I'm all the time soaking up.

    Last time I tested vitamin D is was at 80, and prolactin at around 7 (like 8 months ago). Last labs indicated prolactin at 20. About 1 liter of milk per day and supplementing sometimes magnesium glycinate. The utterly disgusting taste of the latter is for another post. Will start calcium carbonate soon.

    Protein: eggs, milk, cheese, shellfish, liver, red meat, some fish, some collagen... not sure I have a "goto protein"

    Yes. And 20 is better, I've seen it at almost 40. I don't know whether I should keep smashing prolactin down with drugs, or what.
     
  13. mayweatherking

    mayweatherking Member

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    i think u should try to retest D and see where it is at, i am curious
     
  14. Velve921

    Velve921 Member

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    Hey my friend,

    I realize you've been struggling and I can understand that it's been a puzzling journey. It's funny, I've also been following peat for 5 years. Ive seen many improvements and have been beyond diligent with this process.

    But I will say this, I had 2 mentors that were Peat disciples, Liam Springer and Rob Turner. Liam was mentored by Josh Rubin and Rob teaches Popping the Food Bubble. Some harsh reality that I found was is there sometimes isn't a replacement for good coaching. Both Liam and Rob put me through a rigorous program with specific education, direction, feedback, and accountability. Looking back now, if I had not used both of them, I would not have seen the results of success. Both have been teaching for years and both have agreed that I was the most difficult client they ever had and both have worked with people with serious diseases.

    Some brutal truth, There's a chance that you could be someone that needs a serious coach. For example, popping the food bubble is a 4 month course, 1 module per week, 1 consult per week, and everyday I had to track every little thing on chronometer. They helped me identify there were many little things I was doing I would not have thought of... not to mention, peel the onion back one layer at a time.

    Again, some people, the specifics and feedback from an expert can be the best option.
     
  15. grenade

    grenade Member

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    @frant26 What’s the definition of madness?

    Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result each time.

    My story and timeline sounds identical to yours - just an overall decline in mental and physical health.

    When I replaced a most of the sugar with sat fat and protein, and stopped thinking I was some fragile being that was unable to adapt to stressors, everything began to improve.

    I’m 30+% done with losing some of the 60lbs I gained, too.
     
  16. Glassy

    Glassy Member

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    @frant26 - can you articulate what good health for you feels like? It’s something I sometimes struggle to do without talking about what I don’t want (what’s unhealthy) and I sometimes realise that what’s missing is not related to diet.

    I’m of a similar age (39) and watch my peers eating and drinking certain substances either consciously or unconsciously and wonder how healthy they are. Many of my friends are on statins (discretely) or are suffering from a lack of core strength while punching away at their keyboard all day (back problems are common). Cancer is also becoming more frequent (or I’m noticing it more). I don’t know how much is a direct result of their diet but I’m glad I’m no longer questioning whether I’m eating for health even though I eat saturated fat and very few vegetables. I’ve not been really sick and never had a non elective operation. I really don’t have any health problems to complain about. I suspect that I have a fairly resilient body but I also fear that I could wake up next week with a condition and not know what to do because I’m doing everything I can think of to be healthy right now. The question I would be asking is whether you are better off for starting the journey you started 5 years ago and how are you going to take the next 5 years and beyond?

    For me the biggest health improvement came from lifting free weights. I’m never going to be competitive but over 3 years I have noticed huge improvements to my life in having good core strength. Just knowing I can move and support my body weight is a huge thing for me (I’m 110kg) and allows me to do more physical activity which is beneficial in itself. I only workout 2-3 times per week.

    I’ve found this thread to be immensely interesting. I’ve personally moved away from most supplements (occasional magnesium and vit k aside), because I just didn’t feel they helped (but I still couldn’t tell you what I actually wanted help with - more energy? Less belly fat? Effortless errections?). I find it hard to articulate what healthy is because it seems you need to compare it to an unhealthy organism or reduce health to pure aesthetics.
     
  17. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    This is a really good post. I have come to realize I think I am also a "very difficult case to fix" much like you and decided a while back to start coaching with whoever will help me. I've been through like six coaches now. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I have learned quite a lot by doing so.
     
  18. tara

    tara Member

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    I've not seen Peat recommend for most people to eat powders of any kind daily, let alone 8 of them every day. Nor to eat refined sugars daily. Have you?
     
  19. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    dilemmas are language problems

    di lemma is making us into lemmings ... keeping us as lemmings ...
     
  20. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    remember when they used to be dilemnas? was simpler times. Better ? Hard to say...
     
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