The Hypothyroid Protein Deficiency Yet Protein Toxicity Dilemma

[OceanSpray]

I think the first part was a dosage recommended for therapeutic results, whereas the second part is referring to something sustainable on a long-term basis.

That’s how I read it. But that’s not how Cirion read it.

Btw to me ‘wouldn’t seem unreasonable’ does not inspire that much confidence, to be honest. It’s as if he’s saying ‘I guess’.

By the same token, in general, I often think a little too much weight is given to this snippets uttered by Peat in various spontaneous conversations. I think it’s perfectly normal that Peat sometimes throws around ball park numbers or best guess figures that may not have any specific solid science behind them, in that they’re based more on his gut feeling or observational experience. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is when they’re then used as unquestionable god’s word set in stone, as is often the case.

 

[OceanSpray]

What are your guys comments on the amino acid profile of Bone broth protein?

View attachment 14317
Some other users warned me that if lysine is too low relative to arginine that there may be problems. What's the ideal Lysine to arginine ratio? Cystine and tryptophan is relatively low in this powder compared to most protein powders...

Cirion, I would not trust these labels at all. That profile might have very well been copied somewhere from google when the manufacturer was looking for what to put on their AA profile label. If it’s cheaper than to do their own analyses, they’ll do it. If they have almost nothing to lose, why wouldn't they do it? Lying and deceiving these days is a perfectly common and acceptable modus operandi for any business. That’s where we are.

 

[Vinny]

Cirion, I would not trust these labels at all. That profile might have very well been copied somewhere from google when the manufacturer was looking for what to put on their AA profile label. If it’s cheaper than to do their own analyses, they’ll do it. If they have almost nothing to lose, why wouldn't they do it? Lying and deceiving these days is a perfectly common and acceptable modus operandi for any business. That’s where we are.

Absolutely!
This label might easily be, and probably is, a pure BS.
Independent tests had been done (they are very expensive), and reveal only a few protein powder manufacturers are not cheating.

 

[Maverick]

Probably try Pancreatin temporarily until you get to the bottom of your problem? @Cirion

 

[schultz]

Back when I used to be healthy, I did exceedingly well on using protein powder (whey) for over 50% of my daily protein intake. My intake of meat and dairy (actual physical food) was very low at this time.

Whey protein powder is dairy, is it not? I'm guessing that part of the reason that whey or casein might be tolerable when other proteins are not is that it contains calcium. Casein has been shown to be anti-inflammatory.

 

[charlie]

What about oxtail soup?

 

[Tarmander]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree man. Blaming your hypo on these two amino acids...ehh it might be true but just look around at people's recovery stories. Are you seeing a lot of "I was terrible but once I got rid of tryptophan and cysteine I got a lot better!"

I used to have to constantly eat every couple few hours or I would have low blood sugar and shakiness. All went away when I stopped vitamin A and added HCL to each meal. Might not work for you but getting on a rice, meat, and beans diet would eliminate all these variables you are juggling. Yeah your pulse/temp would go down...but thats another tree that might not be worth worrying too much about.

 

[schultz]

I used to have to constantly eat every couple few hours or I would have low blood sugar and shakiness. All went away when I stopped vitamin A and added HCL to each meal.

I know this has been beaten to death over on the Vitamin A thread, but supplemental thyroid allows me to go longer without eating and seems to improve digestion, lending credence to the idea that the whole vitamin A thing can be thought of as a thyroid deficiency. Every time I see someone say "I used to have x symptom, but when I restricted vitamin A and it went away" usually the symptom is a standard hypothyroid symptom.

 

[Cirion]

That’s how I read it. But that’s not how Cirion read it.

Btw to me ‘wouldn’t seem unreasonable’ does not inspire that much confidence, to be honest. It’s as if he’s saying ‘I guess’.

By the same token, in general, I often think a little too much weight is given to this snippets uttered by Peat in various spontaneous conversations. I think it’s perfectly normal that Peat sometimes throws around ball park numbers or best guess figures that may not have any specific solid science behind them, in that they’re based more on his gut feeling or observational experience. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is when they’re then used as unquestionable god’s word set in stone, as is often the case.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree man. Blaming your hypo on these two amino acids...ehh it might be true but just look around at people's recovery stories. Are you seeing a lot of "I was terrible but once I got rid of tryptophan and cysteine I got a lot better!"

I used to have to constantly eat every couple few hours or I would have low blood sugar and shakiness. All went away when I stopped vitamin A and added HCL to each meal. Might not work for you but getting on a rice, meat, and beans diet would eliminate all these variables you are juggling. Yeah your pulse/temp would go down...but thats another tree that might not be worth worrying too much about.

I'm not guessing or using theory or taking Ray's word at it this point. Actually, I've gotten to the point where I only trust my word (aka experimentation). So, I experimentally proved it. I get it, a lot of things you don't believe unless you see it yourself--after all I'm like this too. Anyway I also subjectively feel infinitely better without animal protein in my diet, but that's a more subjective indicator. Actually, there have been several people here who went vegetarian like Travis, MatheusPN and a few others and noted the same effects. I am not necessarily saying vegan/vegatarian is the correct long term diet (I don't think it necessarily is) but in the short term, with some modifications, may be necessary due to the already toxic state the body is in. Yeah an all meat "low VA" diet would literally make me commit suicide from the extreme depression all that meat would do to me, I'm not even interested to try it. I already briefly did, anyway. I will say my data does show me eating relatively low VA, but in context of low (animal) protein high carb low fat aka how I'm eating currently. I eat less than 5000 IU of VA almost every day, sometimes less than 3000. Ray says that less than 5000 is likely best in hypo, so I'm at least meeting those guidelines. I'm not averse to going lower again, while still holding a similar style of eating. Really the only thing I still eat that has any VA at all is orange juice. So if I did experiment with low VA further, it'd be in that context. Actually ya there's no reason you can't do low VA and low animal products, it's actually fairly compatible with it, as long as you don't pick super high VA fruits etc. Temps and pulses really are indicative of thyroid status so it's not optional to bring them up. Broda barns, Steve Richfield, Ray Peat. They all understand the importance of temperature measurements.

 

[Cirion]

Whey protein powder is dairy, is it not? I'm guessing that part of the reason that whey or casein might be tolerable when other proteins are not is that it contains calcium. Casein has been shown to be anti-inflammatory.

Yes, technically it is. Also I haven't yet experimented in it in my hypothyroid state so I can't yet comment on its efficacy, at this point I am guessing on this point, so experimentation is required.

I'm gonna start with Bone broth protein powder, this will be the safest. Nathan hatch used tons of Casein powder in his recovery which tends to go along your point here, and I want to eventually try it out. Interesting that nathan hatch essentially did what I did when I was healthy - pound lots of sugared protein shakes.

The main attraction/selling point of powders like whey or casein is that they are alot easier to digest, which is vitally important in hypo because in hypo digestion is compromised. This means that even though they do still have tryptophan like the whole food, the tryptophan may not be as damaging overall in this form. Maybe its easier for the body to convert it to niacin? Dunno.

Calcium seems to be a mixed bag. It seems that most hypo people on these forums see little to no effect from calcium and get worse from dairy etc. But, I do personally have lots and lots of maple syrup -- which is actually how I get my calcium lol. One could argue this may be one reason why maple syrup does so much good for me-- but it also has B2, manganese etc...

 

[Tarmander]

I know this has been beaten to death over on the Vitamin A thread, but supplemental thyroid allows me to go longer without eating and seems to improve digestion, lending credence to the idea that the whole vitamin A thing can be thought of as a thyroid deficiency. Every time I see someone say "I used to have x symptom, but when I restricted vitamin A and it went away" usually the symptom is a standard hypothyroid symptom.

Yup...liver dysfunction can be put there as well.

​

I'm not guessing or using theory or taking Ray's word at it this point. Actually, I've gotten to the point where I only trust my word (aka experimentation). So, I experimentally proved it. I get it, a lot of things you don't believe unless you see it yourself--after all I'm like this too. Anyway I also subjectively feel infinitely better without animal protein in my diet, but that's a more subjective indicator. Actually, there have been several people here who went vegetarian like Travis, MatheusPN and a few others and noted the same effects. I am not necessarily saying vegan/vegatarian is the correct long term diet (I don't think it necessarily is) but in the short term, with some modifications, may be necessary due to the already toxic state the body is in. Yeah an all meat "low VA" diet would literally make me commit suicide from the extreme depression all that meat would do to me, I'm not even interested to try it. I already briefly did, anyway. I will say my data does show me eating relatively low VA, but in context of low (animal) protein high carb low fat aka how I'm eating currently. I eat less than 5000 IU of VA almost every day, sometimes less than 3000. Ray says that less than 5000 is likely best in hypo, so I'm at least meeting those guidelines. I'm not averse to going lower again, while still holding a similar style of eating. Really the only thing I still eat that has any VA at all is orange juice. So if I did experiment with low VA further, it'd be in that context. Actually ya there's no reason you can't do low VA and low animal products, it's actually fairly compatible with it, as long as you don't pick super high VA fruits etc. Temps and pulses really are indicative of thyroid status so it's not optional to bring them up. Broda barns, Steve Richfield, Ray Peat. They all understand the importance of temperature measurements.

cool graphs.

I do low A and I do not eat a lot of meat unless I get some steaks. So obviously not saying carnivore, not sure where that came from.

About the temp thing...I don't think it is meaningless, but I also do not think focusing on it will get you to where you want to go.

This is my experience with Peat, he talks about all these things that matter in the studies...Calcium/phos ratio, tryptophan, serotonin, PUFA, temp/pulse. It isn't that they do not matter in some context, they do. But focusing on them just did not get me to where I wanted to go, and often pushed me away from where I wanted to go. I could keep my temps/pulse higher than my current waking temp around 97.6...but I would probably have to gain 50 lbs or so. How useful is that? Weight and resting metabolism are directly linked...so just gaining weight will up your metabolism.

What I want is what every man wants. Attention from women, respect at work, satisfying job, family oriented, good social circle/friends. None of the things Peat tells you to focus on will get you to those things.

Like at a certain point you will get your pulse/temp down pat, and be like....uhh...is that it? The thinking goes: "pulses/temp good--->I get healthy/lose weight/become energetic----> life gets better and I get the things that I want". That breaks down right between that first link. Unless you are aiming to be a single guy living off the grid who paints, reads research, and drinks a lot of coffee, following Peat the way you are instead of theoretically is not going to lead you where you want in my experience.

 

[Cirion]

Yup...liver dysfunction can be put there as well.


cool graphs.

I do low A and I do not eat a lot of meat unless I get some steaks. So obviously not saying carnivore, not sure where that came from.

About the temp thing...I don't think it is meaningless, but I also do not think focusing on it will get you to where you want to go.

This is my experience with Peat, he talks about all these things that matter in the studies...Calcium/phos ratio, tryptophan, serotonin, PUFA, temp/pulse. It isn't that they do not matter in some context, they do. But focusing on them just did not get me to where I wanted to go, and often pushed me away from where I wanted to go. I could keep my temps/pulse higher than my current waking temp around 97.6...but I would probably have to gain 50 lbs or so. How useful is that? Weight and resting metabolism are directly linked...so just gaining weight will up your metabolism.

What I want is what every man wants. Attention from women, respect at work, satisfying job, family oriented, good social circle/friends. None of the things Peat tells you to focus on will get you to those things.

Like at a certain point you will get your pulse/temp down pat, and be like....uhh...is that it? The thinking goes: "pulses/temp good--->I get healthy/lose weight/become energetic----> life gets better and I get the things that I want". That breaks down right between that first link. Unless you are aiming to be a single guy living off the grid who paints, reads research, and drinks a lot of coffee, following Peat the way you are instead of theoretically is not going to lead you where you want in my experience.

I've gotten to the point where I completely have a distaste for argumentation (a sign of higher thyroid function, I hope???) so don't take any of this as a personal affront. I pretty much agree with you anyhow. What I'm trying to say is everything matters. Temp, pulse, mood, libido, body weight/fat, motivation. The ultimate metabolism checks EVERY box. So with that, I do agree that higher temp but bad libido, excessive weight gain etc is indeed bad. You don't need to gain 50 lbs to get good temps. In fact, if you do, that's a bad sign--agreed 100%. It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both/and. In fact it SHOULD be both/and, if you get what I mean. One should not have to choose between weight gain or mood/temperatures, they should both go together in the ideal metabolism.

I can tell you with certainty the exact diet that tends to promote weight gain also tends to promote LOWERING of body temp. On days that I LOSE weight, 9 times out of 10 I find my waking temperatures are HIGHER. On top of that I feel better, and life is just better. There's of course a sweet spot. Actually, if you eat too much food, your body temp DECREASES. I've experimentally proven this, also. So it's not nearly as simple as eat more = more body temp. If only it were that easy! It's more like... eat a lot of the correct foods, but not too much, and not too little. The amount of calories needed to accomplish this is typically higher than what most people are used to, but, care needs to be taken not to take it too far also. You are correct that weight is correlated to metabolism. As is temps and pulses. You get all THREE correct, and the magic happens. CO2 is important also, so more like all FOUR. But I can't currently measure CO2, sadly.

Everyone is free to choose the life they want, I am just saying, this approach results in the truly optimal metabolism. If one chooses to go down the rabbit hole, that's up to them. I choose it because most of my life has been miserable and it's my time to shine, it's been three decades coming, and for me, I'm all about quality of life, everything else to me takes a sideshow at this point. You may be right about being single. Luckily, after my last disaster of a relationship, I'm perfectly happy being single lol. That said, I can't quite find myself agreeing with this statement though.

What I want is what every man wants. Attention from women, respect at work, satisfying job, family oriented, good social circle/friends. None of the things Peat tells you to focus on will get you to those things.

High metabolism, women will flock to. Trust me. Because I've been here before (2 yr ago) and I was sooo much better with women then. I was also way better at my job and enjoyed it more also, and also had more friends.

 

[lampofred]

I agree that most typical depression is just hypothyroidism, but you might want to consider the possibility that you are actually depressed (which is ironically termed "atypical" depression). The mind burns through all your energy via rumination (either because of natural tendency from childhood or dissatisfaction with your current life) making you have to resort to crazy amounts of carbs, 1000+ grams, to just not go hypoglycemic, which reminds me of the metaphor you used yesterday, taking extreme effort to pour buckets of water to save a sinking ship when there is actually a big hole at the bottom that needs to be fixed first.

 

[Cirion]

I agree that most typical depression is just hypothyroidism, but you might want to consider the possibility that you are actually depressed (which is ironically termed "atypical" depression). The mind burns through all your energy via rumination making you have to resort to crazy amounts of carbs, 1000+ grams, to just not go hypoglycemic, which reminds me of the metaphor you used yesterday, taking extreme effort to pour buckets of water to save a sinking ship when there is actually a big hole at the bottom that needs to be fixed first.

I no longer believe in such mundane diseases such as "depression" at least in the ways mainstream medicine thinks of it. There's only -- a healthy metabolism, and a broken metabolism. A broken metabolism causes all of the downstream diseases -- obesity, diabetes, depression, anxiety, ED, hair loss, cancer, liver failure, and every thing you can think of. A lot of carbohydrates are needed at first to stem the tide of damage but even in healthy individuals, I think the carb intake requirements are quite high at least for optimal metabolism. Take an example of healthier people than me: @olive is ripped and afaik, in pretty good health also. He eats 750 grams of carbs a day. He probably weighs almost half the body weight I do. So, he actually eats an even higher carb / body weight ratio than I do!!

 

[redsun]

I'm not guessing or using theory or taking Ray's word at it this point. I experimentally proved it. Let's also not forget the fact that I subjectively feel infinitely better without animal protein in my diet, but that's a more subjective indicator. Actually, there have been several people here who went vegetarian like Travis, MatheusPN and a few others and noted the same effects. I am not necessarily saying vegan/vegatarian is the correct long term diet (I don't think it necessarily is) but in the short term, with some modifications, may be necessary due to the already toxic state the body is in. Yeah an all meat "low VA" diet would literally make me commit suicide from the extreme depression all that meat would do to me, I'm not even interested to try it. I already briefly did, anyway. I will say my data does show me eating relatively low VA, but in context of low (animal) protein high carb low fat aka how I'm eating currently. So if I did experiment with low VA further, it'd be in that context. Actually ya there's no reason you can't do low VA and low animal products, it's actually fairly compatible with it, as long as you don't pick super high VA fruits etc. Temps and pulses really are indicative of thyroid status so it's not optional to bring them up. Broda barns, Steve Richfield, Ray Peat. They all understand the importance of temperature measurements.

You know... I am not exactly a statistical expert but those R-squares are considered pretty weak correlation.

I no longer believe in such mundane diseases such as "depression" at least in the ways mainstream medicine thinks of it. There's only -- a healthy metabolism, and a broken metabolism. A broken metabolism causes all of the downstream diseases -- obesity, diabetes, depression, anxiety, ED, hair loss, cancer, liver failure, and every thing you can think of. A lot of carbohydrates are needed at first to stem the tide of damage but even in healthy individuals, I think the carb intake requirements are quite high at least for optimal metabolism. Take an example of healthier people than me: @olive is ripped and afaik, in pretty good health also. He eats 750 grams of carbs a day. He probably weighs almost half the body weight I do. So, he actually eats an even higher carb / body weight ratio than I do!!

Plenty of muscle mass + exercise(not sure how much he does) + low body fat + low fat diet(according to him) + primarily whole food carbs all play a role in increased insulin sensitivity which allow him eat so many carbs. A normal sized individual would never get away with that many carbs without gaining large amounts of weight unless they start checking off all these boxes like olive has.

"I eat 2kg of purple sweet potato and snack on fruits (mostly pineapple/tomatoes) and juice (usually cranberry juice/coconut water) through the day. Total carbs come to 600-700g/day, which is a lot but I tend to burn through them pretty quickly - I know this because I test my blood glucose regularly. I think the avoidance of dietary fats while I eat/digest carbohydrates allows me to eat quite a lot without putting on excess weight (look into the randle cycle). I eat carbs during the day while insulin sensitivity is high. And fats four hours after my last carbohydrate meal, which usually means in the night.
I feel great and I’m never hungry. Because I eat large amounts of micronutrient dense carbs I can avoid having to rely on supplements. I have 3-4 solid bowel movements a day. Energy is high. Body temp is high, my girlfriend often refers to me as a heater." - olive

This is one of his posts where he describes a bit, I don't know how much his diet has changed since then if at all, but @olive if you don't mind chiming in about how things are still going diet wise I would appreciate it.

 

[Cirion]

You know... I am not exactly a statistical expert but those R-squares are considered pretty weak correlation.


Plenty of muscle mass + exercise(not sure how much he does) + low body fat + low fat diet(according to him) + primarily whole food carbs all play a role in increased insulin sensitivity which allow him eat so many carbs. A normal sized individual would never get away with that many carbs without gaining large amounts of weight unless they start checking off all these boxes like olive has.

Yes, because I am plotting ALL my data on one plot which means dozens of confounding variables. When I reduce the variables, in many cases I can get the R squared to 0.8, 0.9 and even higher in some plots I've made.

In addition, the main point is not necessarily the R squared, it's that not once. not once! have I achieved a steady high body temp with animal products. That's what matters at the end of the day. That's the main takeaway from the plots. In addition, not once have I felt well from them either!! They immediately bring me into depression, anxiety, hopelessless, and in some cases even suicidal thoughts. I think you will recall our earlier discussions this week. All of that depression and learned helplessness I had with some posts I made just earlier this week were literally caused by meat. I'm done with them. Period. Except maybe experimenting w/ powders. If I want to die, then bringing them back would be a great way to accomplish it. However, even though I haven't had the highest quality of life, I'm not ready to end it all, sooo... no, I'm not bringing them back.

Also, I already have proved I can maintain or even lose wt on high carbs so it's not even a debate anymore =) So why am I fat you will still ask? Because I am stupid and keep trying to make animal products work. Also, I DO still have to fix my protein deficiency problem, which I do acknowledge is holding me back. But, not with meat.

 

[redsun]

Also, I already have proved I can maintain or even lose wt on high carbs so it's not even a debate anymore =)

I wasn't disagreeing here that one can lose weight on high carb its well known a VLF diet can do this, but this requires other conditions to be met for sustained fat loss such as a very low fat intake and other important things that increase insulin sensitivity.

 

[lampofred]

I no longer believe in such mundane diseases such as "depression" at least in the ways mainstream medicine thinks of it. There's only -- a healthy metabolism, and a broken metabolism. A broken metabolism causes all of the downstream diseases -- obesity, diabetes, depression, anxiety, ED, hair loss, cancer, liver failure, and every thing you can think of. A lot of carbohydrates are needed at first to stem the tide of damage but even in healthy individuals, I think the carb intake requirements are quite high at least for optimal metabolism. Take an example of healthier people than me: @olive is ripped and afaik, in pretty good health also. He eats 750 grams of carbs a day. He probably weighs almost half the body weight I do. So, he actually eats an even higher carb / body weight ratio than I do!!

I don't know man, when you are already waking up at 98.6 temps, and when you say things like you want to retire at 30, would prefer 20 hour work weeks, and can't stand your job, it sounds like there is a large learned helplessness component to your fatigue and weight gain.

Not saying there is no physical problem at all, like PUFA & heavy metal build-up, but I do think it's possible to go the complete opposite of the mainstream view (that the body irrelevant and everything is in your head) to the view that body is the only thing that matters and mind is completely irrelevant.

Probably wouldn't hurt to do periods of thoughtlessness to quiet your head, and maybe even to write out your satisfactions/dissatisfactions with your life as it currently is and try to plan out where you would like it to go.

Not saying this in a "holier-than-thou" advice-dispensing way.

 

[Cirion]

I don't know man, when you are already waking up at 98.6 temps, and when you say things like you want to retire at 30, would prefer 20 hour work weeks, and can't stand your job, it sounds like there is a large learned helplessness component to your fatigue and weight gain.

Not saying there is no physical problem at all, like PUFA & heavy metal build-up, but I do think it's possible to go the complete opposite of the mainstream view (that the body irrelevant and everything is in your head) to the view that body is the only thing that matters and mind is completely irrelevant.

Probably wouldn't hurt to do periods of thoughtlessness to quiet your head, and maybe even to write out your satisfactions/dissatisfactions with your life as it currently is and try to plan out where you would like it to go.

I only say those things when my temps are 97.3-97.6 which they were most of the last couple of weeks trying to make animal products work. On my best days, I actually enjoy work and life in general.

Yes, learned helplessness, fatigue, hating your job and life, it's all hypothyroid speaking.

 

[postman]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree man. Blaming your hypo on these two amino acids...ehh it might be true but just look around at people's recovery stories. Are you seeing a lot of "I was terrible but once I got rid of tryptophan and cysteine I got a lot better!"

I used to have to constantly eat every couple few hours or I would have low blood sugar and shakiness. All went away when I stopped vitamin A and added HCL to each meal. Might not work for you but getting on a rice, meat, and beans diet would eliminate all these variables you are juggling. Yeah your pulse/temp would go down...but thats another tree that might not be worth worrying too much about.

If your temps are going down then you might be doing something wrong. My temps are higher when I eat less retinol.