The Hypothyroid Protein Deficiency Yet Protein Toxicity Dilemma

[Cirion]

So I've come to realize through extensive data analysis and experimentation that I simply can't tolerate animal products. Part of this is because the body is already flooded with Cystine and Tryptophan just due to the excessive protein catabolism that occurs in hypothyroid to generate glucose for the body (Ray talks about this). Thus, eating even MORE cysteine and tryptophan is a COMPLETE disaster (I've learned this the hard way). However, hypothyroid is protein deficient ultimately, precisely due to the excessive catabolism.

However, ruminating over this subject today made me remember a few things.

-- Back when I used to be healthy, I did exceedingly well on using protein powder (whey) for over 50% of my daily protein intake. My intake of meat and dairy (actual physical food) was very low at this time. During this time I also added lots of straight glucose (maltodextrin) to the shakes which means >50% of my calories was in this form. It sounds unhealthy, but I never was healthier in my life. Interestingly, even when I was healthy, I noticed my quality of life degrade once I started adding actual meat to the diet to replace the powder.

-- Nate Hatch in his book, actually did something similar it sounds like, reading between the lines. He mentions how he brought big jugs of casein protein powder mixed with sugar and would sip on this most of the day at work.

-- I recently was reading in the book "Cracking the Metabolic Code" that in hypothyroid, you can be eating 2-3x RDA for protein and still be "deficient" in protein. Haidut also touches on this in a thread I was reading about and Ray also touches on (as earlier mentioned). Unfortunately, in hypothyroid you also can not tolerate protein (I have learned this the hard way) except gelatin and plant products, so it's a MASSIVE catch/22 situation. They claim in this book that protein in powder form is a lot more easily digested.

tl;dr: Any solid information on the utilization as well as negative by products formed from protein in the form of powder (whey, casein, bone broth powder etc...) vs whole foods?

Supposedly taurine helps utilization of whole animal proteins, but I saw only a small benefit while I was taking aminos which had taurine in it.

My current strategy is to eat a lot of gelatin upwards of 72g a day. Ray says you can eat up to around 100g gelatin a day. But since in hypo you are protein deficient, even this might not be enough, since according the MC code you can be eating 2-3X RDA and yet exhibit deficiencies, but I think it may be a bit ridiculous to exceed 100g from gelatin. But if you can't tolerate animal products, what's left? Potato protein I tolerate relatively well, but even that has limits. And so one of the motivations for this thread. I am curious as to the effects of powder for significant replacement of solid protein and the effects of eating this vs. actual food (i.e., serotonin produced, ammonia by-products, actual % utilization rate of powders vs. solid foods, etc...) and in addition the differences between whey, casein, pea protein, bone broth protein powders (and any other variants there may be).

Eating ample carbohydrate is of course the easiest/best strategy to avoid the protein catabolism. I eat very high carb so my catabolism of protein during the day is likely not too bad. But the problem is, in hypothyroid, you are incapable of fasting 8+ hr, so literally EVERY night, I catabolize proteins which floods my body with cysteine, tryptophan, PUFA. So every night, my metabolism is demolished, and this is why I can't "pull up" or make a hypothyroid recovery. The nightly fast is truly the hardest thing to overcome IMO.

 

[lampofred]

Powder is probably not going to be as ideal as milk or meat but if you currently handle zero protein besides gelatin, something would be better than nothing right?

You would incorporate moderate amounts of casein powder or something, and hopefully that digests well and lowers cortisol (reflected by mood, pulse, temps), increasing digestion for milk and meat, which in turn allows you to handle more protein overall and more powder as well, and then more milk and meat, hopefully starting a positive feedback cycle...

Sorry I had no actual info for you lol.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah maybe the answer is Casein. It worked for Nathan Hatch. That was like his staple protein, besides gelatin.

Ultimately, the real solution is to stop the protein catabolism. Then you would not have protein deficiency, and have little need to eat animal protein at that point anyway. But I think this is precisely WHY my waking body temps are often very good or even perfect (98.2-98.6F regularly) on veganism and ultra high carb. I avoid the toxic cysteine tryptophan aminos while simultaneously flooding my body with glucose which prevents the breakdown of protein from my body which prevents the flood of cysteine, tryptophan, and PUFA from my bodily stores.

Eating high protein whilst simultaneously in a catabolic state is akin to trying to keep a sinking ship afloat by taking a bucket and constantly fill it up with the water in the boat and sending it back overboard. Sure the ship may not sink with this method, but you still haven't fixed the glaringly big hole in the side of your ship that is causing the influx of water in the first place.

 

[Amazoniac]

Will is BCAA for leucine? Won't is rate of digestion taken into is account to define what's excessive at a time?

- How much protein can the body use in a single meal for muscle-building? Implications for daily protein distribution
- Perfecting Protein Intake in Athletes: How Much, What, and When?

- Leucine and Its Importance for Cell Signalling Pathways in Cancer Cachexia-Induced Muscle Wasting

- The problem with protein powders | Preston A. Wice Foundation

 

[Cirion]

Ah yes thank you for bringing up that point, I'd almost forgotten. Historically I'd often eat way more than 4 oz of meat in one meal. However, in my personal experience, the real problem is that meat sits and sits and sits in your gut. I've gotten into debates with users here that claim otherwise but consider this (warning, possible TMI alert):

-- When I regularly consume animal products, my #2's turn black in color, or dark anyway.
-- When I stop consuming animal products, my #2's remain black/dark color for up to 2-3 days after stopping, after which point they start to turn lighter color (more like orange ish).

This tells me it can take upwards of two to three days for animal products to get fully processed. The next logical conclusion that I arrived at is, maybe this means if one decides to include animal products in the diet, that maybe they should only be eaten a couple times a week? We all know that Ray says Liver only needs to be eaten sparsely, although I don't necessarily think it's for the conclusions I've just arrived at, probably more so for things like Vitamin A which liver could get you a bit too high on quickly, especially if you eat it a lot and ascribe to the VA toxicity theory.

 

[OceanSpray]

Im not sure Peat advises ‘100 grams of gelatin’. I seem to recall him advising on the ratio to other protein, it being up to 50 percent of the total protein intake.

I’m pretty sure I have seen a study claiming excessive gelatin exacerbates protein deficiency. And reliance on gelatin is bound to create one, with it being an incomplete protein. In other words, gelatin should be used to adjust amino ratios of the main complete protein you’re consuming, but not be the main protein source itself.

 

[lampofred]

Yeah maybe the answer is Casein. It worked for Nathan Hatch. That was like his staple protein, besides gelatin.

Ultimately, the real solution is to stop the protein catabolism. Then you would not have protein deficiency, and have little need to eat animal protein at that point anyway. But I think this is precisely WHY my waking body temps are often very good or even perfect (98.2-98.6F regularly) on veganism and ultra high carb. I avoid the toxic cysteine tryptophan aminos while simultaneously flooding my body with glucose which prevents the breakdown of protein from my body which prevents the flood of cysteine, tryptophan, and PUFA from my bodily stores.

Eating high protein whilst simultaneously in a catabolic state is akin to trying to keep a sinking ship afloat by taking a bucket and constantly fill it up with the water in the boat and sending it back overboard. Sure the ship may not sink with this method, but you still haven't fixed the glaringly big hole in the side of your ship that is causing the influx of water in the first place.

I think Dr. Peat said that's an example of hypothyroidism causing more hypothyroidism. With low thyroid (low GABA/high cortisol), you don't digest protein well and your blood stream is full of tryptophan/cysteine. But with poor protein digestion, you are not able to turn on thyroid. As a result GABA remains low and cortisol remains high in a vicious cycle. I think some new thing that will lower cortisol and raise GABA would be necessary. Sunlight?

And is that metaphor from a Yang interview? Lol.

 

[Cirion]

Im not sure Peat advises ‘100 grams of gelatin’. I seem to recall him advising on the ratio to other protein, it being up to 50 percent of the total protein intake.

I’m pretty sure I have seen a study claiming excessive gelatin exacerbates protein deficiency. And reliance on gelatin is bound to create one, with it being an incomplete protein. In other words, gelatin should be used to adjust amino ratios of the main complete protein you’re consuming, but not be the main protein source itself.

RP:

In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Biochemical, Physiological, and Molecular Aspects of Human Nutrition (978-1-4377-0959-9)

"The Food and Agriculture Organization, World Health Organization, and United Nations University (FAO/WHO/UNU, 2007) define a “safe” daily intake of dietary protein as 0.83 g high-quality protein per kg body weight, or 58 g/day for the reference 70-kg man and 47 g/day for the reference 57-kg woman. The approximate median intake of protein for adults aged 31 to 50 years in the United States is 100 g/day for men and 65 g/day for women. In addition to food proteins, the body digests 50 to 100 g per day of endogenous protein that is secreted into or sloughed into the lumen of the gastrointestinal tract. These endogenous proteins include proteins in saliva, gastric juice, and other secretions; pancreatic enzymes; mucoproteins; sloughed intestinal cells; and proteins that leak into the intestinal lumen from the blood. Most of this mixture of exogenous and endogenous proteins (115 to 200 g/day) is efficiently digested and taken up by the absorptive enterocytes as free amino acids and dipeptides and tripeptides. Around 85% of the total protein is absorbed anterior to the end of the small intestine (terminal ileum), with around 10 to 20 g of protein entering the colon each day. Daily fecal nitrogen losses amount to the equivalent of about 10 g of protein."​

- East West: Serotonin and Endotoxin

"95% of [serotonin] roughly is produced in the intestine and that biggest concentration in the digestive system is in or around the appendix." "[..]there is a gradient through increasing as you go down the small intestine and normally the upper part starting at your stomach almost everyone has a sterile upper small intestine and as you go down, the likelihood of having bacteria increases. And as the person's thyroid function decreases, their intestinal secretion are reduced, peristalsis is reduced, bacteria tend to creep farther and farther up. A really healthy person has almost sterile whole small intestine and the sicker you are, the lower your thyroid function, the more bacteria live in your small intestine, and that means that foods that are slower to digest are going to feed bacteria and encourage them to live more abundantly higher up in your intestine. But ordinarily, the gradient of bacteria is very concentrated towards the appendix, the lower end of the small intestine, and it happens that the gradient of bacterial infection increases parallel to the gradient of serotonin and is probably that the toxins from the bacteria interacting with the physiology of the person are stimulating the production of serotonin because the function of serotonin is to cause contraction of the intestinal muscles, get rid of what is in there cause diarrhea and get rid of the irritant."​

 

[Cirion]

I think Dr. Peat said that's an example of hypothyroidism causing more hypothyroidism. With low thyroid (low GABA/high cortisol), you don't digest protein well and your blood stream is full of tryptophan/cysteine. But with poor protein digestion, you are not able to turn on thyroid. As a result GABA remains low and cortisol remains high in a vicious cycle. I think some new thing that will lower cortisol and raise GABA would be necessary. Sunlight?

And is that metaphor from a Yang interview? Lol.

Yeah, pretty much. Hypothyroidism basically promotes further hypothyroidism without lots of intervention which is why hypo is such a **** to cure.

Not sure about the interview. It's just what popped in my head naturally because the topic of discussion was a "flood" of tryptophan and cysteine lol.

 

[Cirion]

- East West: Serotonin and Endotoxin

"95% of [serotonin] roughly is produced in the intestine and that biggest concentration in the digestive system is in or around the appendix." "[..]there is a gradient through increasing as you go down the small intestine and normally the upper part starting at your stomach almost everyone has a sterile upper small intestine and as you go down, the likelihood of having bacteria increases. And as the person's thyroid function decreases, their intestinal secretion are reduced, peristalsis is reduced, bacteria tend to creep farther and farther up. A really healthy person has almost sterile whole small intestine and the sicker you are, the lower your thyroid function, the more bacteria live in your small intestine, and that means that foods that are slower to digest are going to feed bacteria and encourage them to live more abundantly higher up in your intestine. But ordinarily, the gradient of bacteria is very concentrated towards the appendix, the lower end of the small intestine, and it happens that the gradient of bacterial infection increases parallel to the gradient of serotonin and is probably that the toxins from the bacteria interacting with the physiology of the person are stimulating the production of serotonin because the function of serotonin is to cause contraction of the intestinal muscles, get rid of what is in there cause diarrhea and get rid of the irritant."​

So basically what lampofred said -- being sick promotes getting more sick.

Maybe the only way to figure out how casein or other powders work is just to try them out and see how it affects my well-being and markers of metabolic rate. After all, my most truly valuable knowledge thus far has been gained via experiment. But I think I need a solid week free from most animal proteins just to get a quick cleanse, then maybe I'll try that and see what happens.

I am considering at least having organ meat once a week, inspired both by @redsun and also inspired by some posts you made about how eating liver may be restorative to your own liver. Once a week also should be rarely enough to mitigate most of the damage that animal products may be causing me.

 

[OceanSpray]

RP:
In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

Do you not see the contradiction in that passage?

 

[Cirion]

Do you not see the contradiction in that passage?

There is no contradiction. If you're referring to where he says the exception may be for a growing child or a very physically active adult, I am neither, so neither applies to me. I don't think that should be a surprise though. Anyone who lift weights knows they need a little more protein than someone sedentary, and obviously a growing child would need ample supply of all aminos.

 

[lampofred]

Do you not see the contradiction in that passage?

I think the first part was a dosage recommended for therapeutic results, whereas the second part is referring to something sustainable on a long-term basis.

 

[LLight]

The Strong Antioxidant Sheep/Goat Whey Protein Protects Against mTOR Overactivation in Rats: A Mode of Action Mimicking Fasting
Don't know if it applies to cow whey too.

 

[Cirion]

The Strong Antioxidant Sheep/Goat Whey Protein Protects Against mTOR Overactivation in Rats: A Mode of Action Mimicking Fasting
Don't know if it applies to cow whey too.

Interesting. I admit I am still a little ignorant of lots of biological terms (I'm learning as I go around these forums lol) but inhibiting mTOR and p70-S6K1 is good then I take it? That's related to growth hormone right? (Which of course Ray Peat speaks negatively about).

FWIW, back when Haidut did his crazy four digit T boosting experiment ~1500 ng/dL or something, didn't he get all of his protein from powder? From what I recall it was essentially 20-30g whey, 20-30g casein, and 20-30g gelatin, and he had this mix twice a day.

 

[redsun]

Ah yes thank you for bringing up that point, I'd almost forgotten. Historically I'd often eat way more than 4 oz of meat in one meal. However, in my personal experience, the real problem is that meat sits and sits and sits in your gut.

I feel like I have mentioned this before, but food sitting is low stomach acid. I feel like Im beating on a dead horse but felt like I should remind. Sugars absorb fast because its literally just sugar and gets absorbed and used quickly. Protein is a different story. And absolutely powdered protein reduces the work your own digestion has to do so it will be easier for digestion. I'd say go back to what works and consume tons of protein powders and dextrose at least temporarily. The long term solution is remedying stomach acid.

I've gotten into debates with users here that claim otherwise but consider this (warning, possible TMI alert):

-- When I regularly consume animal products, my #2's turn black in color, or dark anyway.
-- When I stop consuming animal products, my #2's remain black/dark color for up to 2-3 days after stopping, after which point they start to turn lighter color (more like orange ish).

You should take a few minutes and perhaps read up on stool colors through a quick google search. Black can be caused by iron supplements(or perhaps lots of unabsorbed iron from the meat you ate). Light stool is a sign of gallbladder issues. Orange likely means not enough bile is being absorbed into the stool to make it brown. Not good stuff. Of course it can also be from orange foods which have beta carotene, but if its not that, best watch out...

 

[Cirion]

Maybe it sits in your gut man, but it doesnt sit in mine and a lot of others. I feel like I have mentioned this before, but food sitting is low stomach acid. I feel like Im beating on a dead horse but felt like I should remind. Sugars absorb fast because its literally just sugar and gets absorbed and used quickly. Protein is a different story. And absolutely powdered protein reduces the work your own digestion has to do so it will be easier for digestion.

You should take a few minutes and perhaps read up on stool colors through a quick google search. Black can be caused by iron supplements(or perhaps lots of unabsorbed iron from the meat you ate). Light stool is a sign of gallbladder issues. Orange likely means not enough bile is being absorbed into the stool to make it brown. Not good stuff. Of course it can also be from orange foods which have beta carotene, but if its not that, best watch out...

Lol yeah it's a horse we should stop beating. That poor dead horse man...!!!

Yeah it's great if you digest food well but the question is what do you do if digestion is broken? The answer clearly is not just eat meat and try to force it to work, I tried that. Doesn't work. I am not convinced just taking Histidine or some other magical supplement is gonna fix it either. So yeah, hoping maybe powders could be a viable option for now.

 

[redsun]

Lol yeah it's a horse we should stop beating. That poor dead horse man...!!!

Yeah it's great if you digest food well but the question is what do you do if digestion is broken? The answer clearly is not just eat meat and try to force it to work, I tried that. Doesn't work. I am not convinced just taking Histidine or some other magical supplement is gonna fix it either. So yeah, hoping maybe powders could be a viable option for now.

Yes I think powder are a temporary solution that will help get amino acids back in your system. Its just the stomach acid secretion that's broken. T3 is known to increase stomach acid secretions. I am not an expert on the how it does it, but likely its through increasing gastrin, acetylcholine, or histamine. Or likely all three.

And I think without adequate T3, the peptide hormone gastrin, and the two neurotransmitters involved(acetylcholine and histamine) are not able to bind to the parietal cell properly and make HCL. Or perhaps there is a lack of gastrin, acetylcholine, or histamine preventing the parietal cell from making stomach acid and T3 forces production of these chemicals increasing their availability.

 

[Cirion]

What are your guys comments on the amino acid profile of Bone broth protein?

Some other users warned me that if lysine is too low relative to arginine that there may be problems. What's the ideal Lysine to arginine ratio? Cystine and tryptophan is relatively low in this powder compared to most protein powders...