The Tryptophan/Insulin Dilemma

[maillol]

Hi everyone, first post. I’ve been reading with interest for a while. I think like many of you I am coming from a keto/carnivore background that did not go well. I have been incorporating Peat style ideas into my diet and I am seeing benefits. I have plenty of questions but I’ll try to stick to one topic at a time.

It generally seems accepted that we want to keep serotonin low and as such we want to minimise tryptophan.

It also generally seems accepted that we want to improve metabolism by providing plenty of sugar, be it from fruit, milk or refined.

Now this may be oversimplified but as I understand it insulin pushes all amino acids into muscles except for tryptophan which is left behind in the brain which causes an increase in serotonin.

So my question is how do we keep metabolism high while keeping insulin low?

Also it seems all protein sources contain tryptophan and as someone who works out and doesn’t want to lose muscle what is the best way to get plenty of protein in my diet without getting sky high amounts of tryptophan?

 

[Hans]

Hi everyone, first post. I’ve been reading with interest for a while. I think like many of you I am coming from a keto/carnivore background that did not go well. I have been incorporating Peat style ideas into my diet and I am seeing benefits. I have plenty of questions but I’ll try to stick to one topic at a time.

It generally seems accepted that we want to keep serotonin low and as such we want to minimise tryptophan.

It also generally seems accepted that we want to improve metabolism by providing plenty of sugar, be it from fruit, milk or refined.

Now this may be oversimplified but as I understand it insulin pushes all amino acids into muscles except for tryptophan which is left behind in the brain which causes an increase in serotonin.

So my question is how do we keep metabolism high while keeping insulin low?

Also it seems all protein sources contain tryptophan and as someone who works out and doesn’t want to lose muscle what is the best way to get plenty of protein in my diet without getting sky high amounts of tryptophan?

Elevated free fatty acids in the blood increases free tryptophan which increases the synthesis of serotonin, so someone on keto with elevated lipolysis might have higher serotonin than someone eating carbs and spiking insulin.
Starches and glucose spike insulin the most and fructose the least. So fruits will have the least insulin stimulating effect.
Two protein sources that are highest in tryptophan is whey and egg whites. So if you stick to other protein sources such as red meat, lean white meat, shellfish, egg yolk and cheese/casein and gelatin, you should be able to keep serotonin low.

Other protein sources have BCAA and dopamine precursors which will compete with tryptophan for uptake in the brain. So eating low tryptophan protein sources will lower serotonin and increase dopamine. There is no need to try to eat zero tryptophan, but rather a food with a low tryptophan to tyrosine and phenylalanine ratio.
Depending on your weight and amount of muscle mass, around 120-150g of animal protein and 20-50g of gelatin would be very anabolic, pro-metabolism, pro-dopamine and anti-serotonin.

 

[mimmo123]

your best defense is keep co2 high so serotonin doesnt get released from platelets

 

[maillol]

Great response Hans thanks. If I have high ffa and therefore serotonin from keto do I just have to wait for this to come down? Anything I can do to accelerate this?

Mimmo, whats the best way to do that? Just general sugar intake?

 

[mimmo123]

anyway you can sugar,baking soda, limiting pufa, uncoupling via aspirin,coffee,DNP,Inhaling co2 and bathing in it
get a capnometer and track it and youll know what works and what doesnt

 

[boris]

So what are good readings to have on the capnometer?

 

[Hans]

Great response Hans thanks. If I have high ffa and therefore serotonin from keto do I just have to wait for this to come down? Anything I can do to accelerate this?

When lipolysis is chornically elevated due to prolonged low carb diet, it can take a while to reduce, especially if there is insulin resistance as well. But just eating carbs should lower lipolysis if you're not insulin resistant. Supplements that can lower lipolysis and that will help improve glucose oxidation is niacinamide and aspirin. If I were insulin resistant I'd take 500mg niacinamide three times a day with meals and then 81mg-300mg of aspirin as well.
I'd also get a glucose meter to track what's happening to my glucose levels as I'm doing the transition.

Great response Hans thanks. If I have high ffa and therefore serotonin from keto do I just have to wait for this to come down? Anything I can do to accelerate this?

Mimmo, whats the best way to do that? Just general sugar intake?

What minno said. Here is also an article on it: 8 best ways to increase CO2 and gain its benefits

 

[Hans]

So what are good readings to have on the capnometer?

The target EtCO2 value should be 35-45 mmHg and if you're producing a lot of CO2 it should be on the high end and maybe even over the upper range.

 

[maillol]

Thanks that's a good link. I think my insulin sensitivity is ok. My morning fasted blood glucose is 4.8. Still I might get some niacinamide, seen it mentioned a lot around here.

Capnometers seem to be thousands of £. Am I missing something? Is there a budget option?

 

[boris]

529€ There are older ones for around 100$ on ebay.com
Kapnograph ETCO2-Patientenmonitor EKG NIBP SPO2 RESP TEMP PR Vitalparameter,CE | eBay

Or something like EMMA etco2
In used condition on ebay it's around the same price range 500-700€. New 1500€

Then there are these disposables for one time use for a few bucks
I don't know if these are accurate though.

 

[Vinny]

Elevated free fatty acids in the blood increases free tryptophan which increases the synthesis of serotonin, so someone on keto with elevated lipolysis might have higher serotonin than someone eating carbs and spiking insulin.
Starches and glucose spike insulin the most and fructose the least. So fruits will have the least insulin stimulating effect.
Two protein sources that are highest in tryptophan is whey and egg whites. So if you stick to other protein sources such as red meat, lean white meat, shellfish, egg yolk and cheese/casein and gelatin, you should be able to keep serotonin low.

Other protein sources have BCAA and dopamine precursors which will compete with tryptophan for uptake in the brain. So eating low tryptophan protein sources will lower serotonin and increase dopamine. There is no need to try to eat zero tryptophan, but rather a food with a low tryptophan to tyrosine and phenylalanine ratio.
Depending on your weight and amount of muscle mass, around 120-150g of animal protein and 20-50g of gelatin would be very anabolic, pro-metabolism, pro-dopamine and anti-serotonin.

Excellent!

 

[tara]

Capnometers seem to be thousands of £. Am I missing something? Is there a budget option?

Learn to measure Buteyko Control Pause?

 

[maillol]

Learn to measure Buteyko Control Pause?

I forgot about that one thanks Lara. What sort of time represents a good level of CO2?

 

[Zigzag]

When lipolysis is chornically elevated due to prolonged low carb diet, it can take a while to reduce, especially if there is insulin resistance as well. But just eating carbs should lower lipolysis if you're not insulin resistant. Supplements that can lower lipolysis and that will help improve glucose oxidation is niacinamide and aspirin. If I were insulin resistant I'd take 500mg niacinamide three times a day with meals and then 81mg-300mg of aspirin as well.
I'd also get a glucose meter to track what's happening to my glucose levels as I'm doing the transition.

What minno said. Here is also an article on it: 8 best ways to increase CO2 and gain its benefits

A bit offtopic, but I'm in the middle of healing process from low carb dieting. What would you say about heavy resistance training as a method of healing slight insulin resistance and other stuff mentioned in posts above? Does it aid in transition from fat->glucose oxidation or regular walking daily should be enough? I do work out, but quite lightly and am thinking how much activity I need to add to negate all the damage from sedentary work.

 

[Hans]

A bit offtopic, but I'm in the middle of healing process from low carb dieting. What would you say about heavy resistance training as a method of healing slight insulin resistance and other stuff mentioned in posts above? Does it aid in transition from fat->glucose oxidation or regular walking daily should be enough? I do work out, but quite lightly and am thinking how much activity I need to add to negate all the damage from sedentary work.

Doing intense training for 5 minutes before a meal can help, like doing a few sets of kettlebells swings, or going for a walk for about 10 minutes after a meal is also great for improving insulin sensitivity.
Heavy weight training is great as it will add more muscle mass and increase glycogen stores and so on which will help with insulin sensitivity. It's not necessary to heal from insulin resistance, walking would be enough, but adding more muscle and doing heavy lifts will be helpful. I'd say going heavy is better than training light, but this depends on your metabolism. If your metabolism is slow and you heal slowly, then the volume will have to be low (1-6 sets per muscle group per week), but if your metabolism isn't slow and you recover fast, you can up the volume (8-15 sets per muscle group per week).

 

[tara]

What sort of time represents a good level of CO2?

I just googled and I think I recognise the chart on this page as Buteyko's. I've read the page, which describes how to do the CP, but not the rest of the site.

 

[lampofred]

I think fructose uses less insulin than glucose and fruits that contain potassium need even less insulin because the potassium itself puts the sugar into the cells, making insulin unnecessary. And if you are getting enough calcium, and if your estrogen and free fatty acids are low, then the tryptophan in milk/animal protein turns into niacin instead of serotonin. I think the most important thing for lowering 5ht is to keep FFA low.