Music

[Elephanto]

I've started to think that it's not normal to listen to stimulating music for hours. For instance my dad is an high-stress individual and he plays music in his car and home "24/7". I find it annoying and mildly stressing. When we are teenagers, our hormones are often imbalanced (peaks of estrogen, prolactin and growth hormone) and many of us are at least mildly neurotic. We listen to a lot of music. When you are young you are also more attracted to adrenaline rushes like watching scary movies and riding roller coasters. As the system supports it less with age you draw away from excessive stimulation, in some cases, even when not particularly susceptible to stress you simply change what you want from life. I see silence as a sort of equalizer, a bringer of internal balance and remover of chaos. Some people want to get away from that, they need to keep going on the crazy ride. Maybe for some it is seen as needed as it lowers stress hormones in a study or two which have shown higher dopamine, serotonin, lower cortisol and lower testosterone in men from listening to music (which was probably not metal or excessively stimulating music). Oxytocin, triggered by soothing music and love relationships, lowers testosterone in men. In my case, I feel that my basal dopamine is pretty high and listening to too much music stimulates excessively. For instance, excess dopamine plays a role in Schizophrenia so we can deduct a limit for optimal thinking. Nowadays, I prefer to listen to 2 or 3 songs in a row and enjoy them while being involved emotionally then return to silence. I find that listening to music constantly also devalues the experience.

 

[Terma]

I've started to think that it's not normal to listen to stimulating music for hours. For instance my dad is an high-stress individual and he plays music in his car and home "24/7". I find it annoying and mildly stressing. When we are teenagers, our hormones are often imbalanced (peaks of estrogen, prolactin and growth hormone) and many of us are at least mildly neurotic. We listen to a lot of music. When you are young you are also more attracted to adrenaline rushes like watching scary movies and riding roller coasters. As the system supports it less with age you draw away from excessive stimulation, in some cases, even when not particularly susceptible to stress you simply change what you want from life. I see silence as a sort of equalizer, a bringer of internal balance and remover of chaos. Some people want to get away from that, they need to keep going on the crazy ride. Maybe for some it is seen as needed as it lowers stress hormones in a study or two which have shown higher dopamine, serotonin, lower cortisol and lower testosterone in men from listening to music (which was probably not metal or excessively stimulating music). Oxytocin, triggered by soothing music and love relationships, lowers testosterone in men. In my case, I feel that my basal dopamine is pretty high and listening to too much music stimulates excessively. For instance, excess dopamine plays a role in Schizophrenia so we can deduct a limit for optimal thinking. Nowadays, I prefer to listen to 2 or 3 songs in a row and enjoy them while being involved emotionally then return to silence. I find that listening to music constantly also devalues the experience.

Interesting thoughts. Some of that I can relate to personally. But most of my tastes and habits are 85% acquired from life experience and don't follow many such rules.

Listening to a song too often definitely ruins it, but it's not a psychological devaluation of the experience to me, it's some sort of neurobiochemical adaptation that makes me lose interest in the melody, essentially . I have a very specific threshold and it gives a specific sensation.

Contrary to that, I've had some OCD and half-autistic tendencies for a long time, and those issues make repetition itself soothing.

Even greater than that, my music tastes and tolerance are most strongly influenced by various forms of GABA agonism. It makes me enjoy heavier music like hardcore rap and metal so much more. Maybe it could be seen as the inhibition increasing the threshold for irritability.

I'm kinda gonna fall down now so bye.

 

[Elephanto]

Interesting thoughts. Some of that I can relate to personally. But most of my tastes and habits are 85% acquired from life experience and don't follow many such rules.

Listening to a song too often definitely ruins it, but it's not a psychological devaluation of the experience to me, it's some sort of neurobiochemical adaptation that makes me lose interest in the melody, essentially . I have a very specific threshold and it gives a specific sensation.

Contrary to that, I've had some OCD and half-autistic tendencies for a long time, and those issues make repetition itself soothing.

Even greater than that, my music tastes and tolerance are most strongly influenced by various forms of GABA agonism. It makes me enjoy heavier music like hardcore rap and metal so much more. Maybe it could be seen as the inhibition increasing the threshold for irritability.

I'm kinda gonna fall down now so bye.

Part of the devaluation I'm talking about is that it becomes background music. I find that in some high stress individuals they don't seek soothing music but rather chaotic one as they enjoy that state (though most of them show signs of unhapiness). Kinda like the type of individuals drawn to opioids are usually not the same that are drawn to stimulants.

Interesting point about GABA, I've had this hypothesis that Theanine partly explains the emergence of the UK as a powerhouse of music creation. It definitely increases creativity. I don't seem to have signs of low Gaba and I take supps like Magnesium, Taurine, Glycine and Nitric Oxide-inhibiting ones (NO increases glutamate signaling). Cannabis is something that always increased appreciation of music for me and it also increases Oxytocin. Simple dopaminergic or calming substances don't produce the same effect in my experience. Cannabis increases GABA, Glutamate, Cortisol, Serotonin and Oxytocin, MDMA increases Glutamate, Serotonin and Oxytocin but decreases GABA, so they only share Glutamate, Serotonin and Oxytocin elevation and both increase music appreciation. As a teenager, I think I was somewhat high Serotonin, I spent time in darkness and had social fear, and music had a stronger effect on me.

A lot of metal enthusiasts were some of the most gentle and respectful people I've known, but also mostly low test. Aggression would raise Testosterone levels as aggressive environments do, maybe it's a sort of Testosterone Replacement Therapy for them. This is obviously not a valid generalization for all metal enthusiasts but maybe the type I'm refering to.

 

[skittles]

This message is probably gonna sound batty as hell, but here goes..

I'm a bit of a music addict. I rarely listen to instrumental stuff though. Instead, I really gravitate toward albums and I typically only listen to full albums. I'll listen to pretty much any album at least once or twice. After about the third or fourth listen, I'll usually pull up the lyrics and follow along. After that, I listen to it deeper. And then deeper still. I'm a musician myself, so I try to study albums. I focus deeply on separate aspects of the song, like the lyrics, or the mix, and I constantly keep in mind the cohesive message of the entire album, and how that message fits in with the overarching mission of the artist, and how they view the world. The album reveals its true self to me over time. I'm a very introverted person, and through albums, artists have become like substitutes for friends.

I have to admit, I often wonder if has done some damage to me, and I've been making steps to change how I listen to music. Even being fairly peaty, and even into adulthood, I tend to use music sort of like a drug. I obsess over it, and I do tend to gravitate toward atonality and distortion. None of my favorite artists have a traditionally 'good' voice. A lot of my favorite artists seem to be a little bit insane, and there are often elements of intense cognitive dissonance woven throughout the songs. That's what makes it interesting to me. I suppose that's a reflection of who I am too, and so I relate to those artists on a deeper level than those who are more harmonious and certain and simple.

I think it's fairly common for a certain type of artist to milk the act of rumination to a dangerous degree, not only creating poetry by strengthening the connections between wildly far-flung thoughts until they seem natural together, but also living in it, rather than looking at it from a distance. This happens with me while both writing and listening to music. I've got a touch of synesthesia, and there's a pleasurable sort of over-stimulation of textural and colorful elements, coupled with emotional and imagery-laden lyrics, it stirs up some sort of supernatural drama in my head. There have been many times when an album has overwhelmed me with something I lovingly refer to as 'The Helter Skelter factor', which is the point where music is no longer just music, but where I feel like my mind has synchronized wavelengths with the mind of the artist, and I'm telepathically receiving the original message in crystal-clear high-definition (probably incorrectly, of course). This tends to happen most in headphones, alone, in the dark, at night, with no other sensory input. It can be absolutely terrifying.

Similar to what Elephanto mentioned above, it's become pretty clear to me that it can't be healthy to focus so deeply on a body of music for the length of an album, and then re-visit it over and over. That's not to say listening to albums is a bad thing, but when you willingly, vividly, and completely immerse yourself into that imaginary place, I think your mind makes it real. It gets its hooks in your brain if you let it. And it's addictive, going into that trance-like state. It's like playing around with a ouija board or something.

The past few months, I've been spending more time listening to simpler music, and listening to music at the surface level. I listen to it with the lights on, or in the background going for walks or at the gym, and I feel like my health is improving a bit because of that simple change. I feel a lot less like a crazy person, but sadly also a lot less inspired to make music. I imagine it's a lot like how many artists feel getting sober for the first time after writing a few albums on drugs. I think it takes time to develop the skill-set required to write music from a distance rather than living inside of it. Kind of like the difference between method acting and classical acting.

 

[Terma]

Part of the devaluation I'm talking about is that it becomes background music. I find that in some high stress individuals they don't seek soothing music but rather chaotic one as they enjoy that state (though most of them show signs of unhapiness). Kinda like the type of individuals drawn to opioids are usually not the same that are drawn to stimulants.

Interesting point about GABA, I've had this hypothesis that Theanine partly explains the emergence of the UK as a powerhouse of music creation. It definitely increases creativity. I don't seem to have signs of low Gaba and I take supps like Magnesium, Taurine, Glycine and Nitric Oxide-inhibiting ones (NO increases glutamate signaling). Cannabis is something that always increased appreciation of music for me and it also increases Oxytocin. Simple dopaminergic or calming substances don't produce the same effect in my experience. Cannabis increases GABA, Glutamate, Cortisol, Serotonin and Oxytocin, MDMA increases Glutamate, Serotonin and Oxytocin but decreases GABA, so they only share Glutamate, Serotonin and Oxytocin elevation and both increase music appreciation. As a teenager, I think I was somewhat high Serotonin, I spent time in darkness and had social fear, and music had a stronger effect on me.

A lot of metal enthusiasts were some of the most gentle and respectful people I've known, but also mostly low test. Aggression would raise Testosterone levels as aggressive environments do, maybe it's a sort of Testosterone Replacement Therapy for them. This is obviously not a valid generalization for all metal enthusiasts but maybe the type I'm refering to.

I just woke up out of nowhere, that's the ******* alcohol (I don't even like it, it's a temporary fix), at least I can write this, but Monday's going to be all ****88 up. Don't expect another post...

I was drawn to opiates heavily, and they definitely do not produce the same as GABA agonists. They both produced music appreciation, but opiates soft, mainstream, happy music, while GABA agonists a much broader and more creative range. Definitely GABA/dopamine combined agonists (because you never just want GABA alone most of the time, though you can gauge it in isolation; pure GABA will actually lower dopamine) and probably NMDA or Acetylcholine agonists (some overlap in what I've tried) increase creativity, while opiates and NMDA antagonists clearly do not and can even antagonize creativity. You can contrast this by looking at the members of UK's Depeche Mode, the singer having a great voice everyone credits the band's existence to, a heroin addiction, and very little songwriting ability; the guitarist being a songwriter but more boring character in an all-time hall of fame or other.

Oxytocin (perhaps even Vasopressin?) I'm not sure because I haven't had the opportunity to try real MDMA or anything that is known to target oxytocin primarily like, well, oxytocin. THC just makes me paranoid, so that's a strange one for me. CBD I don't know yet, but see other threads for possible link with GABA-A through Allopregnanolone synthesis.

5a-DHP/Allopregnanolone (GABA-A positive allosteric) increased music appreciation but more straightforward and less creative than GABA-B agonists (and probably GHB) and direct GABA-A agonists. It's quite dopaminergic when it works, rather, though clearly also improves mental "noise filtering", classic GABA-A effect.

Theanine is a strange one to me as well. It's not too clear what it does, and I always have to combine it with something else, in very low dose, otherwise it's counter-productive. But in the right dose and combination it certainly contributes to "noise filtering". But since it has effects at NMDA it probably can't work well alone and needs caffeine and such.

It's hard to derive rules from this other than clear associations for opiates, NMDA antagonist, and GABA agonists, with the latter being the only one that is of true value to me. NMDA agonists probably have an effect but I've yet to fully appreciate it due to using them mainly for work (Sarcosine). Acetylcholine likely as well, but probably less enjoyable.

Oxytocin I'll have to get back to you.

Side note: GABA has another fantastic effect, which is to improve "noise filtering" of not just thoughts but literal sounds. I and some family members are born with some issues discerning voices in crowds (whatever the name for that is again) and these substances have made me "normal" in that respect. Even further, they seem to have "healed" damage from loud concerts and practice sessions. I can listen to loud music levels often with no issues. Of course I also take Mg, Zn, tons of amino acids and other things, but by and large GABA allosteric/agonists are unmatched.

I obsess over it, and I do tend to gravitate toward atonality and distortion. None of my favorite artists have a traditionally 'good' voice.

Same here, but mine is acquired taste that has completely overtaken my natural impulses. Purely naturally I would listen to Backstreet Boys' Shape of my Heart.

The most intelligent person I've ever known ended up listening to a lot of technical progressive thrash metal with terrible vocals (which I love too from time to time) but clearly to me he was doing that a little bit as an acquired taste and to fit in, too, though he'd never admit the latter. Clearly it worked in achieving that for him, otherwise he'd probably get beat up earlier in school for his intellect. He was much sharper than me, and I had high grades through effort. He did it all with no effort.

I think it's fairly common for a certain type of artist to milk the act of rumination to a dangerous degree, not only creating poetry by strengthening the connections between wildly far-flung thoughts until they seem natural together, but also living in it, rather than looking at it from a distance. This happens with me while both writing and listening to music.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but to me that's all become overly melodramatic. There's nothing that insane about the metal or jass or whatever music scenes compared to some of the insane ***t that happens to people in third-world countries and such. I listen to some Propagandhi specifically to stay grounded in reality. It's probably the single best thing that music has ever done for my life, and this one single band is the only one left in the world able to do that for me.

As for me, repetition I've just accepted as a defect of my OCD-like health problems, then I don't worry about it, I'm just ****88, I already know that. But then an unexpected contradiction: all the best substances (GABA) merely help me indulge in this in a more positive way, then it's not even a defect anymore, it really enhances my life.

Anyway I'm not trying to downplay your personal progress, it's just I have to stay very grounded in reality otherwise I get very lost in my own pointless musings, and now music is actually the thing that allows me to do that, I think the only thing. I'd say you're going the right way, exposure to new styles is always the way to go. **** I just lost 1 hour of sleep.

 

[Elephanto]

@Terma Interesting about NMDA antagonists, I'm on a stack that includes Magnesium and several Nitric Oxide inhibitors. Simple Nitric Oxide inhibition produces similar results to NMDA Antagonism and reduces Glutamate signaling, thus protecting against neurodegeneration. I generally have creative bouts (I write rap) when I take a coffee, and caffeine activates NMDA. Though I feel like NMDA antagonism actually increases my mental clarity, logical thinking and memory retention, perhaps I'm not inhibiting it enough to feel negative effects. Maybe also because a lot of my supps/habits tend to decrease Ammonia, which induces mental fog (found high in Autism, Schizophrenia, Alzheimer's and Bipolarism). There's also some kind of glutamatergic aspect going on when I write verses, I write very rapidly under some kind of trance. On the other hand, my creative ability to think and imagine solutions/more complex systems is increased with NMDA antagonism. I think it would help with filmmaking.

 

[Terma]

Caffeine is probably increasing acetylcholine signaling rather, though it basically increases everything. Acetylcholine has a major role, it doesn't cross my mind much because I take it for granted. Similarly Magnesium has loads of effects yet rather weak NMDA antagonist.

NO inhibitors are not all created equal insofar as iNOS vs nNOS, but otherwise you're right. GABA (and/or VGCC inhibitors) can have an effect on both of these too, and immunomodulation separately (altering iNOS), so it's just huge.

Closest to a pure NMDA antagonist I tried in various doses was DXM. I've heard one or two artists in a news bit say they used it for creativity. That could be true in the sense some people use Ketamine to effect. But every dosage of DXM did nothing but make me dumber and certainly not creative, unless you count watching weird wireframe buildings unfolding in your head as inspiration. I tried to use it as a substitute for Alcohol at the time, and it was a complete utter failure. I'm convinced those one or two artists never tried anything better. Meanwhile Sarcosine gives a new perspective (which Glycine fails to do because it's too broad-acting). This is just mine.

 

[Ulysses]

 

[Travis]

Here are three four albums that I like today.

 

[x-ray peat]

Science Proves: Pop Music Has Actually Gotten Worse
Science confirms what you’ve always suspected: music these days is worse than it used to be
By Rose Eveleth
smithsonian.com
July 27, 2012

If there’s one thing everyone can agree on, it’s that everyone else’s music is bad. And if there’s something everyone but teenagers can agree on, it’s that today’s pop music is terrible. But what if the issue isn’t inherent bias and nostalgia? What if today’s music really is that bad? To find out, we’ll need some science.

Scientific American reports on a study that tried to track changes in pop music over the last half-century.

Joan Serrà, a postdoctoral scholar at the Artificial Intelligence Research Institute of the Spanish National Research Council in Barcelona, and his colleagues examined three aspects of those songs: timbre (which “accounts for the sound color, texture, or tone quality,” according to Serrà and his colleagues); pitch (which “roughly corresponds to the harmonic content of the piece, including its chords, melody, and tonal arrangements”); and loudness (more on that below).

So, what happened since 1955? Well, timbral variety went down. That means that songs are becoming more and more homogeneous. In other words, all pop music sounds the same now. Take this fake pop song for example.

The study also found that pitch content has decreased – which means that the number of chords and different melodies has gone down. “Musicians today seem to be less adventurous in moving from one chord or note to another, instead following the paths well-trod by their predecessors and contemporaries,” Scientific American explains.

And the next time an old person complains that your music is too loud, well, it probably is. Music has gotten a lot louder in the past half-century. This is a problem, Scientific American says, because:

Loudness comes at the expense of dynamic range—in very broad terms, when the whole song is loud, nothing within it stands out as being exclamatory or punchy. (This two-minute YouTube video does a great job of demonstrating how excessive loudness saps richness and depth from a recording.) Indeed, Serrà and his colleagues found that the loudness of recorded music is increasing by about one decibel every eight years.

So what this study is saying is that your parents are right, music just isn’t what it used to be.

Read more: Science Proves: Pop Music Has Actually Gotten Worse | Smart News | Smithsonian
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[Jon]

I dig that there are so many Metal Heads here!

@X3CyO I tend to think music works like this; if you're trying to accomplish a specific goal, music that flows with that feeling or emotion of that specific task is going to be conducive to your health in THAT situation.

For instance, I know violent and distortive music like metal has been shown to have deleterious effects BUT they played it in a non violent non engaging atmosphere...uh yeah it's going to mess with health! Just like forcing the square peg into the round slot....one does not flow with the other!

If you engage in violent distortive challenging activities then this kind of music will HELP YOU tap into that mode. I've trained without heavy music (some bad a s s hip hop is good too) and without it I am not as good at being focused and engaged. My mental fortitude feels un tapped.

Likewise, I would not spend a romantic evening with my wife listening to slipknot Lol and I would only find things like classical or orchestral music like Hans Zimmer conducive to studying.

Just like the food and supplements we here utilize to better our health, they are only helpful when there's a need. I think this applies to music. I think the heavy stuff gets a bad wrap because most people don't ever have the need to tap into a 6th gear for physical activity since most don't engage in intense exercise like that.

 

[marcar72]

Pepsi... Drink it up!!

 

[X3CyO]

I dig that there are so many Metal Heads here!

@X3CyO I tend to think music works like this; if you're trying to accomplish a specific goal, music that flows with that feeling or emotion of that specific task is going to be conducive to your health in THAT situation.

For instance, I know violent and distortive music like metal has been shown to have deleterious effects BUT they played it in a non violent non engaging atmosphere...uh yeah it's going to mess with health! Just like forcing the square peg into the round slot....one does not flow with the other!

If you engage in violent distortive challenging activities then this kind of music will HELP YOU tap into that mode. I've trained without heavy music (some bad a s s hip hop is good too) and without it I am not as good at being focused and engaged. My mental fortitude feels un tapped.

Likewise, I would not spend a romantic evening with my wife listening to slipknot Lol and I would only find things like classical or orchestral music like Hans Zimmer conducive to studying.

Just like the food and supplements we here utilize to better our health, they are only helpful when there's a need. I think this applies to music. I think the heavy stuff gets a bad wrap because most people don't ever have the need to tap into a 6th gear for physical activity since most don't engage in intense exercise like that.

right on

 

[Terma]

Here are three four albums that I like today.

I had NO idea who sang that. The more you know.

 

[Jennifer]

 

[Terma]

Likewise, I would not spend a romantic evening with my wife listening to slipknot Lol and I would only find things like classical or orchestral music like Hans Zimmer conducive to studying.

I thought I loved Hans Zimmer, but I found out only 1 month ago that although he gets half the credit, it's actually Klaus Badelt who wrote the Pirates of the Caribbean theme.

 

[Jon]

I thought I loved Hans Zimmer, but I found out only 1 month ago that although he gets half the credit, it's actually Klaus Badelt who wrote the Pirates of the Caribbean theme.

Well that's not sporting of him. Hopefully klaus gets a fair share of the profits!

If like hans (and apparently klaus lol) then you should check out x-ray dog, two steps from hell, and audiomachine. :)

 

[Terma]

Well that's not sporting of him. Hopefully klaus gets a fair share of the profits!

If like hans (and apparently klaus lol) then you should check out x-ray dog, two steps from hell, and audiomachine. :)

Thanks, never heard of any of those.

Indeed, he did a badass job, considering the pressure he was under: Hans Zimmer - Wikipedia

Bruckheimer had finished shooting Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl but was unhappy with the music composed for the film by Alan Silvestri and wanted a replacement score.[34] Bruckheimer wanted Zimmer to rescore the film, but due to his commitments on The Last Samurai, the task of composing and supervising music for Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl was given to Klaus Badelt, one of Zimmer's colleagues at Media Ventures.

 

[Terma]

Huh, I do have X-Ray Dog on my playlist, but it's just a PotC remix [or something].

 

[Jon]

Huh, I do have X-Ray Dog on my playlist, but it's just a PotC remix [or something].

X-ray dog for whatever reason doesn't sell their scores but you can rip them from YouTube lol