Chronic Craniofacial Discomfort. Can Only Listen To Music If I'm On An SSRI. Need Supplement Advice

milk

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Apr 27, 2015
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341
TL;DR: title says it all. Venlafaxine and escitalopram are effective for the problem but are otherwise bad. I have tried several peaty supplements, with not much success. If I ever find a non-harmful supplement that does the job I'll be infinitely thankful.

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I have already made some posts about my craniofacial discomfort problems. But I want to deal with the particular issue of listening to music. I'll attempt to be brief and clear.

I don't know of another forum where it would make sense to vent about this health problem and expect to be read by people who know their stuff and can maybe give helpful advice. I have made similar threads before, but I need to get this out.

Listening to music makes me feel nervous. Intensifies the feeling of discomfort on my face as well as my slight disjointedness while walking if I leave the house right afterwards. My face feels as if my teeth arches were all over the place, like a surrealistic painting. Sometimes it feels like the left side of my face is all teeth. Closing my left eye feels like closing a mouth with teeth on it.

The cavities corresponding to each eye feel large, loose, like the whole sides of my face were one big droopy eye-hole, particularly the left side, but the feeling seems to change places. It's as if there were force fields right over my face, indeed like the morphogenetic fields that give the the face its shape, competing among them, one over each eye and one over my nose and mouth and cheeks. Like there's borders between the fields and they're trying to encroach on one another. I can see the fields as dim colors when I close my eyes. The shapes are fluid. It sort of feels like I don't have a face.

This started, as I said in another posts, when I got my braces removed in the beginning of 2007. But here is the thing: for I think one or two years I used Samsung stereo speakers connected to a cheap PC speaker as my computer sound setup. Eventually one speaker started emitting louder sound than the other. So I attributed the onset of the discomfort to that. I also attributed it, superstitiously, to mysterious transcendent causes. Only ten years later would I realize many people had undergone similar problems to mine after having used orthodontic braces. It seems obvious to me now that having the shape of one's dental arches artificially changed could cause chronic craniofacial discomfort. I wish it would have occurred to me back then.

I have contacted the clinic recently and they have discarded the files pertaining to old patients, so I can't get a mold of my old teeth and see how the shape of my teeth has been changed.

In the end of 2008 I went to a psychiatrist for unrelated issues and she prescribed me venlafaxine. I took it and in less than ten minutes the discomfort had vanished. I have low metabolic inertia, for sure. I thought I had found the cure. I started listening to music on my mp3 player during bus rides to and from college. I listened to a lot of music. I took venlafaxine on and off until 2012, until the hair loss began. In 2014 I was dealing with serious anxiety and high blood pressure and went to another doctor. He prescribed me escitalopram and I reluctantly tried it. The discomfort was wonderfully gone again, my face and head felt completely normal. It was even more efficacious than venlafaxine. That day I watched a movie on the laptop with headphones and it didn't cause me any trouble.

It also made me lose significant weight in only two days, as noticed by my sister, the one in the family with a keen eye for these things. And it made me lose more hair than usual. But the craniofacial discomfort? Gone.

I've been off SSRIs for years. I have been listening to very little music. This makes me sad. I have tried peaty alternatives. Glycine, cyproheptadine, pregnenolone. Glycine seems to help somewhat. Vitamin D3 helps somewhat too. The feeling subsides a bit when I take them. But they're not as effective as the SSRIs. They only make me feel slightly better.

So then. What is it about the SSRIs? Why do they work so well for this issue? It's come to the point that I'm slightly contemplating shaving my head, forgetting about the hair loss and just getting on escitalopram. I don't even like how escitalopram makes me feel, it definitely gives me an artificial happiness and calm that is very different from the wholesome vigorous feeling that the Peat diet gives me. But peating doesn't help with the discomfort at all.
 

Constatine

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Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Messages
1,781
TL;DR: title says it all. Venlafaxine and escitalopram are effective for the problem but are otherwise bad. I have tried several peaty supplements, with not much success. If I ever find a non-harmful supplement that does the job I'll be infinitely thankful.

---

I have already made some posts about my craniofacial discomfort problems. But I want to deal with the particular issue of listening to music. I'll attempt to be brief and clear.

I don't know of another forum where it would make sense to vent about this health problem and expect to be read by people who know their stuff and can maybe give helpful advice. I have made similar threads before, but I need to get this out.

Listening to music makes me feel nervous. Intensifies the feeling of discomfort on my face as well as my slight disjointedness while walking if I leave the house right afterwards. My face feels as if my teeth arches were all over the place, like a surrealistic painting. Sometimes it feels like the left side of my face is all teeth. Closing my left eye feels like closing a mouth with teeth on it.

The cavities corresponding to each eye feel large, loose, like the whole sides of my face were one big droopy eye-hole, particularly the left side, but the feeling seems to change places. It's as if there were force fields right over my face, indeed like the morphogenetic fields that give the the face its shape, competing among them, one over each eye and one over my nose and mouth and cheeks. Like there's borders between the fields and they're trying to encroach on one another. I can see the fields as dim colors when I close my eyes. The shapes are fluid. It sort of feels like I don't have a face.

This started, as I said in another posts, when I got my braces removed in the beginning of 2007. But here is the thing: for I think one or two years I used Samsung stereo speakers connected to a cheap PC speaker as my computer sound setup. Eventually one speaker started emitting louder sound than the other. So I attributed the onset of the discomfort to that. I also attributed it, superstitiously, to mysterious transcendent causes. Only ten years later would I realize many people had undergone similar problems to mine after having used orthodontic braces. It seems obvious to me now that having the shape of one's dental arches artificially changed could cause chronic craniofacial discomfort. I wish it would have occurred to me back then.

I have contacted the clinic recently and they have discarded the files pertaining to old patients, so I can't get a mold of my old teeth and see how the shape of my teeth has been changed.

In the end of 2008 I went to a psychiatrist for unrelated issues and she prescribed me venlafaxine. I took it and in less than ten minutes the discomfort had vanished. I have low metabolic inertia, for sure. I thought I had found the cure. I started listening to music on my mp3 player during bus rides to and from college. I listened to a lot of music. I took venlafaxine on and off until 2012, until the hair loss began. In 2014 I was dealing with serious anxiety and high blood pressure and went to another doctor. He prescribed me escitalopram and I reluctantly tried it. The discomfort was wonderfully gone again, my face and head felt completely normal. It was even more efficacious than venlafaxine. That day I watched a movie on the laptop with headphones and it didn't cause me any trouble.

It also made me lose significant weight in only two days, as noticed by my sister, the one in the family with a keen eye for these things. And it made me lose more hair than usual. But the craniofacial discomfort? Gone.

I've been off SSRIs for years. I have been listening to very little music. This makes me sad. I have tried peaty alternatives. Glycine, cyproheptadine, pregnenolone. Glycine seems to help somewhat. Vitamin D3 helps somewhat too. The feeling subsides a bit when I take them. But they're not as effective as the SSRIs. They only make me feel slightly better.

So then. What is it about the SSRIs? Why do they work so well for this issue? It's come to the point that I'm slightly contemplating shaving my head, forgetting about the hair loss and just getting on escitalopram. I don't even like how escitalopram makes me feel, it definitely gives me an artificial happiness and calm that is very different from the wholesome vigorous feeling that the Peat diet gives me. But peating doesn't help with the discomfort at all.
I would stay clear of SSRI's as I'm sure you know they have detrimental effects on health and may even shorten your lifespan dramatically. I don't know for sure but my guess as to why the SSRI works is due to serotonin's inhibitory effect on awareness. Serotonin acts as a mask to the senses and the mind thus it will dull your perception of such things. Your problem regarding music seems really strange. The fact that glycine and vitamin d help tells me that your brain needs more inhibitory activity (that is not serotonin) as well as more dopaminergic activity. I recommend consuming half of your protein via collagen protein (great lakes collagen is great, this will better your brain's inhibitory activity and improve neurosteroids), eat more sugar and calories in general as to stop the stress reaction, keep your vitamin d levels high obviously, get adequate nutrients including all fat soluble vitamins and important minerals like magnesium, avoid overstimulating activities such as porn or excessive tv or gaming (as to re-sensitize the dopamine system), expose yourself to bright light all day (to up-regulate dopamine receptors and improve thyroid), and supplement with taurine at meals (improves gaba and dopamine function). As for your facial problem high doses of vitamin k might fix the issue if it is a structural problem (anywhere from 2mg - 45mg a day).
 

FredSonoma

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Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
914
If you were able to get the original shape of your teeth from the orthodontist, would you actually try to revert them to that? I also feel orthodontics did me bad. Don't have anything the same as your problem. Curious to see what people say.
 

encerent

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Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
609
Modern extraction and retraction orthodontics aims to give yous straight teeth while ruining your face and and very often even function.

But with rigorous adherence or oral posture, that is putting the tongue firmly on the palate at all times, you can reverse the bad effects of conventional orthodontics. The tongue pressure will expand your palate slowly. At the same time it will push your maxilla forward, supporting properly the entire bone structure of your face. With strong facial bones your soft tissues, muscles, fats actually will have support, and look and feel good.

It's controversial, though, how much improvement you can actually achieve as an adult with just correcting oral posture. (I believe it can be done. Though I didn't have orthodontics I've improved oral posture to improve my looks and they are improving a bit.) So the other route is to seek out a maxillofacial surgeon who can do orthognathic surgery on you which is an incredibly invasive proceture whey they cut your maxilla and mandible from your skull, advance them forward then set them again. You can get rather quick and good results from this too.

Or again, go the slow route and look for an oral myologist in your area who could help you with oral posture.
 

Thoushant

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Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
211
Hey Milk, I relate to the eye movement you describe.
How symmetric is your face? (try to see in a face symmetry app).
You've mention you suspect you have scoliosis already, so it's possible there's a body asymmetry going on, and this can affect your skull and facial bones. (or it's you skull bones affecting your body, however you want to go..)
You sound familiar with orthotropics, so I guess it's all about sticking that tongue up :p But if you maxilla is ingrown and you have asymmetry, this may affect one of the trigeminal nerves.
(Doctors have treated you with SSRI for trigeminal neurologia right?)

The maxillary nerve(red area) has a ganglion between the maxilla and the sphenoid. It's not uncommon for a nerve to misfire if it's pressed, which might be the case if your maxilla is setback, and you have an asymmetry further pressing.
Sounds like it's more a left side problem than a right side, so about the asymmetry: It's how the sphenoid and the occiput are in relation to each other, and there's lots of variation, most common are appearently LSB and RT(try the RT exercise). But try searching for Knic Rabara on youtube for different types.
I don't think a surgery is warrented, tbh you don't seem that setback in you maxilla, But there are some lighter solutions, like ALF splint, which might push you maxilla just enough to free the nerve.
check out curedystonia, there is a lot of tension and asymmetry if your skull is falling/asymmetric.but also realise you may have started from a different asymmetry. I think a doctor who can use ALF and knows about bone movement in the skull can help.

Sounds very weird. I'm curious how you would respond to 432Hz music (there's an app for that..).
Btw appearently you can buy Bone conduction headphones, who knows, might help.
 
OP
M

milk

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Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
341
I would stay clear of SSRI's as I'm sure you know they have detrimental effects on health and may even shorten your lifespan dramatically. I don't know for sure but my guess as to why the SSRI works is due to serotonin's inhibitory effect on awareness. Serotonin acts as a mask to the senses and the mind thus it will dull your perception of such things. Your problem regarding music seems really strange. The fact that glycine and vitamin d help tells me that your brain needs more inhibitory activity (that is not serotonin) as well as more dopaminergic activity. I recommend consuming half of your protein via collagen protein (great lakes collagen is great, this will better your brain's inhibitory activity and improve neurosteroids), eat more sugar and calories in general as to stop the stress reaction, keep your vitamin d levels high obviously, get adequate nutrients including all fat soluble vitamins and important minerals like magnesium, avoid overstimulating activities such as porn or excessive tv or gaming (as to re-sensitize the dopamine system), expose yourself to bright light all day (to up-regulate dopamine receptors and improve thyroid), and supplement with taurine at meals (improves gaba and dopamine function). As for your facial problem high doses of vitamin k might fix the issue if it is a structural problem (anywhere from 2mg - 45mg a day).

This all makes sense.

I've been drinking too much coffee and getting little sun exposure since I was around 12. My vitamin D levels have been called "incredibly low" last time I posted them here. Definitely feels like a nervous overstimulation thing. As for gelatin, yeah, supplemental glycine does help a good deal. I recently went through two Life Extension vit-K complex bottles, around one capsule a day, I think it helped but nothing too noticeable. Magnesium makes me feel better. I'll make a point of getting more sun exposure, or red light if I manage to find the right lamp.
 
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M

milk

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If you were able to get the original shape of your teeth from the orthodontist, would you actually try to revert them to that? I also feel orthodontics did me bad. Don't have anything the same as your problem. Curious to see what people say.

Yeah, I thought about it, getting the shape back. But I don't know if that would be the most ideal procedure. Ideally I'd like to have Mike Mew take a look at my teeth and face.
 
OP
M

milk

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Apr 27, 2015
Messages
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Modern extraction and retraction orthodontics aims to give yous straight teeth while ruining your face and and very often even function.

But with rigorous adherence or oral posture, that is putting the tongue firmly on the palate at all times, you can reverse the bad effects of conventional orthodontics. The tongue pressure will expand your palate slowly. At the same time it will push your maxilla forward, supporting properly the entire bone structure of your face. With strong facial bones your soft tissues, muscles, fats actually will have support, and look and feel good.

It's controversial, though, how much improvement you can actually achieve as an adult with just correcting oral posture. (I believe it can be done. Though I didn't have orthodontics I've improved oral posture to improve my looks and they are improving a bit.) So the other route is to seek out a maxillofacial surgeon who can do orthognathic surgery on you which is an incredibly invasive proceture whey they cut your maxilla and mandible from your skull, advance them forward then set them again. You can get rather quick and good results from this too.

Or again, go the slow route and look for an oral myologist in your area who could help you with oral posture.

Yeah, I'm aware of Mike Mew.

I've been mewing for a few months. I stopped for a month now, though. Glycine makes me too relaxed for it, tianeptine helps a lot with the tongue pressure though, gives me a lot of energy.

Strange things happen when I "mew". The first few days my voice went back to my deep pre-teen voice, less nasally, it was a shock.

Also, when I press my tongue against my upper front teeth, sometimes the general bodily throbing I usually feel, which made me start a thread called "kundalini", stopped and concentrated, instead, on those teeth.

Also, for the longest time I couldn't feel my heartbeat when I put my hand over my chest, it's as if my hearbeat was spread over my body. But recently while mewing as a lie on my back I could feel it again when I lay my hand on my chest. As if mewing were putting things in place again, and as if the general discomfort and pulse-rythm throbbing I feel throughout my body were being caused by whatever is wrong my teeth, palate, maxilla etc.
 
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M

milk

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Hey Milk, I relate to the eye movement you describe.
How symmetric is your face? (try to see in a face symmetry app).
You've mention you suspect you have scoliosis already, so it's possible there's a body asymmetry going on, and this can affect your skull and facial bones. (or it's you skull bones affecting your body, however you want to go..)
You sound familiar with orthotropics, so I guess it's all about sticking that tongue up :p But if you maxilla is ingrown and you have asymmetry, this may affect one of the trigeminal nerves.
(Doctors have treated you with SSRI for trigeminal neurologia right?)

The maxillary nerve(red area) has a ganglion between the maxilla and the sphenoid. It's not uncommon for a nerve to misfire if it's pressed, which might be the case if your maxilla is setback, and you have an asymmetry further pressing.
Sounds like it's more a left side problem than a right side, so about the asymmetry: It's how the sphenoid and the occiput are in relation to each other, and there's lots of variation, most common are appearently LSB and RT(try the RT exercise). But try searching for Knic Rabara on youtube for different types.
I don't think a surgery is warrented, tbh you don't seem that setback in you maxilla, But there are some lighter solutions, like ALF splint, which might push you maxilla just enough to free the nerve.
check out curedystonia, there is a lot of tension and asymmetry if your skull is falling/asymmetric.but also realise you may have started from a different asymmetry. I think a doctor who can use ALF and knows about bone movement in the skull can help.

Sounds very weird. I'm curious how you would respond to 432Hz music (there's an app for that..).
Btw appearently you can buy Bone conduction headphones, who knows, might help.

Thanks for the tips and links.

Yeah, my face is assymetrical, my body too. I was probably born like this, my hairline used to be very assymetrical, it quickly became symmetrical when I started losing hair though, curiously. My mother wonders if my scoliosis is due to sitting on one of my legs when playing with Legos as a kid. When I ran competitively in gym glass my legs would face forwards and my torso and arms would face somewhat diagonally to the left.

I suffered a blow to one side of my face when I was 3 or 4, I remember it, and another when I was around 14 on the other side, my face looks kind of assymetrical in my early pictures. But the braces sort of made it worse in some ways, my nose became more crooked. I'm not too pleased with that.
 
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milk

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Anyway, thanks for all the replies.

I'll probably just bite the bullet and get it over with the CT-Scan next week. I might post the results here.
 

DaveFoster

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Not yet. I mean to.
Taking larger amounts of progesterone is functionally equivalent to taking an SSRI in many ways devoid of the negative effects of the latter.
 
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milk

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The "top" of my nose (as in, well, see pic below) has been chronically inflamed and dandruff-ridden since I was around 18. I need to rub alcohol or some adstringent lotion on it daily.

I wore braces from ages 14 to 21. It was also around 18 years old that reading books started to become physically uncomfortable. Something to do moving my eyes side to side when skipping from one line to the next ("saccadic" eye movement, I believe).

It only hit me about a year ago that the inflammation is probably due to the maxilla having being affected. Like my maxilla is being pulled out of its proper place, I think.

x94iW8N.jpg
 

Lecarpetron

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It seems sometimes the effects of orthodontics are fairly minor and other times really, really bad.

Mewing is good, but only works if your palate is wide and low enough so your tongue can sit on the roof of your mouth including the back of your palate, not touching your teeth (tip of tongue should be behind the ridge). It's more important for your tongue to apply pressure in the back of your mouth than near the ridge. You probably already know this - just FYI in case you didn't. I thought I was Mewing for years and I really wasn't because my palate was so narrow/vaulted that my tongue only made contact on the ridge. Three months of wearing ALF appliance fixed that.

Craniofacial problems suck :( Not easily fixed without physical force, supps won't do it. Although K2 works for some people.
 
OP
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milk

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I think mewing is helping a lot.

Even just a few minutes at night lying on my back, sticking my tongue to the roof my mouth, including the tricky posterior third of the tongue, swallowing repeatedly. As I swallow I distinctly feel the tongue exert a lot of pressure on my palate and front upper teeth, to the point that I feel pressure around my ears, in my temples and in certain points of my skull, and hear and feel some cracks.

I know Mike Mew says to leave your tongue on your palate at all times, not to just do it briefly at night. I know, I know. But just doing it very vigorously (tianeptine helps) makes a lot of the symptoms I describe (face feels weird, can't listen to music, throbbing throughout body) subside significantly.

The problem, I believe, is mostly the left side of my face. It's kind of droopy. After mewing vigorously it clearly moves up a bit when I look in the mirror. But if afterwards I fail to push the palate with the tongue it sags back to its former droopy position. I'm not alone in this, I have seen other people relate this in Orthotropics websites. Well, one guy at least.

I just listened to a loud song now with headphones and it wasn't uncomfortable. The discomfort happens because music seems to make my whole face "flare up", every muscle becomes more sensitive, and when my face is all disjointed the disjointedness is felt all the more keenly in those moments. But after mewing it is as if my face reverts to "knowing" its right place.

A significant part of this are the eyes. Normal, functioning eyes are "aligned". There is a horizontal "vision line". Well, my vision line seems to be somewhat tilted to the left, in a way that matches my general facial asymmetry. And mewing seems to make this vision line go back to its right position.

This is not a placebo thing. I wasn't expecting this kind of improvement. I just happened to notice it.

This is very hard to explain. I'm posting this because I think I'm making progress and I'm sort of happy (and nervous) about it.
 
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milk

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It seems sometimes the effects of orthodontics are fairly minor and other times really, really bad.

Mewing is good, but only works if your palate is wide and low enough so your tongue can sit on the roof of your mouth including the back of your palate, not touching your teeth (tip of tongue should be behind the ridge). It's more important for your tongue to apply pressure in the back of your mouth than near the ridge. You probably already know this - just FYI in case you didn't. I thought I was Mewing for years and I really wasn't because my palate was so narrow/vaulted that my tongue only made contact on the ridge. Three months of wearing ALF appliance fixed that.

Craniofacial problems suck :( Not easily fixed without physical force, supps won't do it. Although K2 works for some people.

The space in my palate is kind of narrow but I do manage to stick my tongue up there.

I think K2 helped me somewhat while I took it.
 
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milk

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I've been taking niacinamide and it's helping a great deal with this.
 

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