Is HCG Alone Enough To Maintain Upstream Hormone Production On TRT?

[rayptfb]

I'm on TRT and one of my main long-term concerns surrounding HPTA supression is becoming deficient in upstream hormones - pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA etc.

HCG @ 100iu every morning boosts my total testosterone by ~10 nmol/L, implyng that it does facilitate Cholesterol -> Preg conversion within the leydig cells. Is this enough to keep production of other upstream hormones which don't take the DHEA -> Test / e2 -> DHT pathway from becoming deficient?

I attempted to take both oral and transdermal pregnenolone (dosed at 15mg and 5mg respectivly) to prevent this issue, but both routes led to vascular pain, and later progressed to alterations to the appearance of veins (looked to be turning them varicose; this happened throughout my entire body).

If HCG isn't enough to solve this issue, what are my other options besides preg supplementation?

 

[skycop00]

Haidut just posted this: Elevated ESR And HCG Levels Are Strong Predictors Of Impending Cancer Diagnosis

 

[rayptfb]

Haidut just posted this: Elevated ESR And HCG Levels Are Strong Predictors Of Impending Cancer Diagnosis

Thank you for the link, I'll reconsider my HCG use.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding upstream hormone supplementation? If HCG is now off the table, and with pregnenolone giving me varicose veins, it doesn't really leave me with much to work with.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Never heard about Preg causing varicose veins before. Searching the forum, it does appear some got those veins with progesterone supplementation. You could always try low dose DHEA.

Why were you using HCG and TRT together?

I would think the bigger thing to be concerned with was excess estrogen. Personally, I am currently trying and AI along with Preg and DHEA.

 

[rayptfb]

Never heard about Preg causing varicose veins before. Searching the forum, it does appear some got those veins with progesterone supplementation. You could always try low dose DHEA.

Why were you using HCG and TRT together?

I would think the bigger thing to be concerned with was excess estrogen. Personally, I am currently trying and AI along with Preg and DHEA.

I saw that thread too; I assume that the pregnenolone was converting into too much progesterone and that casued my issues.

HCG is used alongside TRT in the 'TRT community' to maintain fertility - I'm relativly young (24) so it's a big concern for me, though due to numerous testicular surgeries (the reason I'm on TRT) I'm sceptial I have any fertility to maintain. The other reason is that HCG is thought to maintain upstream hormone production that would otherwise be shut off by HPTA supression on T. HCG always kept my DHEA-S at the top of the range, but progesterone always comes back low.

Estrogen has been an ever present issue for me on TRT, so I have to use exemestane which takes care of things nicely.

How long have you been trying the preg / dhea and ai? Would you mind disclosing the doses used?

 

[tankasnowgod]

I saw that thread too; I assume that the pregnenolone was converting into too much progesterone and that casued my issues.

HCG is used alongside TRT in the 'TRT community' to maintain fertility - I'm relativly young (24) so it's a big concern for me, though due to numerous testicular surgeries (the reason I'm on TRT) I'm sceptial I have any fertility to maintain. The other reason is that HCG is thought to maintain upstream hormone production that would otherwise be shut off by HPTA supression on T. HCG always kept my DHEA-S at the top of the range, but progesterone always comes back low.

Estrogen has been an ever present issue for me on TRT, so I have to use exemestane which takes care of things nicely.

How long have you been trying the preg / dhea and ai? Would you mind disclosing the doses used?

I had not heard of that before. I had always heard of using hcg as more PCT, or maybe an alternative to TRT.

I just started, about a week ago. I'm using 6.25mg Exemestane, 10mg DHEA (divided doses), and 100-200mg Pregnenolone a day (experimenting with different doses). I think I might end up doing 100mg in the AM and 100mg in the PM, as I believe my cortisol is elevated too (due to years of working a very early morning shift). I have never had any negative issues with Pregnenolone, however, and it doesn't make me "wired" at night. Also, 10,000 IU vitamin D. That seems to enhance the AI effect even more, and protect against some side effects.

I have also used progesterone in the past, and have had success with that. Topical application near muscles actually had a very positive effect, and I got that idea after reading Haidut's thread on how muscle growth is more due to "anti-catabolic" actions of steriods rather than "anabolic" actions. Prog is very "anti-catabolic" in theory, and in practice for me. I am using some progesterone at night, sporadically.

Another user posted a doc about using DHEA and an aromatase inhibitor as an alternative to TRT for most men. I'll see if I can't find that doc and post it later.

Are you eating lots of cholesterol rich foods?

 

[PPbro]

I saw that thread too; I assume that the pregnenolone was converting into too much progesterone and that casued my issues.

HCG is used alongside TRT in the 'TRT community' to maintain fertility - I'm relativly young (24) so it's a big concern for me, though due to numerous testicular surgeries (the reason I'm on TRT) I'm sceptial I have any fertility to maintain. The other reason is that HCG is thought to maintain upstream hormone production that would otherwise be shut off by HPTA supression on T. HCG always kept my DHEA-S at the top of the range, but progesterone always comes back low.

Estrogen has been an ever present issue for me on TRT, so I have to use exemestane which takes care of things nicely.

How long have you been trying the preg / dhea and ai? Would you mind disclosing the doses used?

Never ever reconsider what knowledgeable doctors have been doing with decades of success because of some misinterpretation of human physiology on a forum on the internet.

By the way your DHEA-S is high because your adrenals are fired up, which is most likely why you resorted to androgen replacement therapy in the first place, not addressing the root cause of your hypogonadism ie. high adrenaline lifestyle, a permanent physical and/or mental fight or flight all too common in the West.

Most women and men who use hormones would rather pop an obscure pill cocktail, alongside weird dietary choices and blatant overtraining, whilst crapping on "conventional pharmaceutical tactics", instead of slowing down, giving the stress hormones a break, reassessing their whole life, and eventually reaching freedom.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Never ever reconsider what knowledgeable doctors have been doing with decades of success because of some misinterpretation of human physiology on a forum on the internet.

Who are these "knowledgeable doctors" you speak of? And what "decades of success" are you referring to?

I also think your idea of "Never ever" even questioning doctors is pretty foolish in itself. They may be knowledgeable, but they don't know everything. They certainly aren't god.

 

[PPbro]

I can see you quoted my post on the other thread, maybe try watching the video right above your message there. I can’t start interacting with higher levels of evidence than a video of a renowned clinician presenting a lifetime of HCG use at a conference. Recognize a real pioneer when you are shown one.

There are lots of very competent researchers and clinicians who are for the most part found on Pubmed.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I can see you quoted my post on the other thread, maybe try watching the video right above your message there. I can’t start interacting with higher levels of evidence than a video of a renowned clinician presenting a lifetime of HCG use at a conference. Recognize a real pioneer when you are shown one.

Well, aren't you just a little firecracker? Anyway, we do. His name is Ray Peat. Although I am also a fan of Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer, among others.

There are lots of very competent researchers and clinicians who are for the most part found on Pubmed.

Pretty sure most people here know how to search Pubmed. The question is........ do you?

 

[tankasnowgod]

HCG is used alongside TRT in the 'TRT community' to maintain fertility - I'm relativly young (24) so it's a big concern for me, though due to numerous testicular surgeries (the reason I'm on TRT) I'm sceptial I have any fertility to maintain. The other reason is that HCG is thought to maintain upstream hormone production that would otherwise be shut off by HPTA supression on T. HCG always kept my DHEA-S at the top of the range, but progesterone always comes back low.

So, from what I've seen, the AI plus precursors (like DHEA and Pregnenolone) seems like a promising route for most men.... but since you've had several testicular surgeries, you're a different case. It could be that in your case, you have an overabundance of precursor hormones, and very little of the downstream androgens, like test and DHT.

 

[S-VV]

AI plus precursors (like DHEA and Pregnenolone) seems like a promising route for most men

I’m very interested in this. How are you doing? Libido and muscle alright?

 

[tankasnowgod]

I’m very interested in this. How are you doing? Libido and muscle alright?

Mentioned above, it's just been a week. But, I have noticed some positive subjective signs. No real negatives, other than some slight joint soreness, which might not be any more than normal, and some additional tiredness, which often happens when lowering stress hormones.

 

[rayptfb]

Never ever reconsider what knowledgeable doctors have been doing with decades of success because of some misinterpretation of human physiology on a forum on the internet.

By the way your DHEA-S is high because your adrenals are fired up, which is most likely why you resorted to androgen replacement therapy in the first place, not addressing the root cause of your hypogonadism ie. high adrenaline lifestyle, a permanent physical and/or mental fight or flight all too common in the West.

Most women and men who use hormones would rather pop an obscure pill cocktail, alongside weird dietary choices and blatant overtraining, whilst crapping on "conventional pharmaceutical tactics", instead of slowing down, giving the stress hormones a break, reassessing their whole life, and eventually reaching freedom.

You know nothing about my diet or lifestyle, nor have you seen my bloodwork - I have no idea where you got the vast majority of the conclusions from.

Given the unprovoked, passive-aggressive nature of your response, it appears you're the one who needs to 'give the stress hormones a break'. I'm not trying to attack you or incite an argument, I just want to have some civil dialogue about my hormonal issues.

 

[rayptfb]

So, from what I've seen, the AI plus precursors (like DHEA and Pregnenolone) seems like a promising route for most men.... but since you've had several testicular surgeries, you're a different case. It could be that in your case, you have an overabundance of precursor hormones, and very little of the downstream androgens, like test and DHT.

Thank you for all of your advice, and also for sharing your current experience with the upstream hormones combined with an AI.

I agree that due to my testicular surgeires it is likely that my hormone production is compromised to the point where diet and lifestyle interventions alone aren't sufficent to override the damage.

I had my progesterone levels checked today and the results came back extremely low.

Progesterone: 0.437 (0.7 - 4.3) nmol/L.

Progesterone deficiency does explain many of my symptoms. I'd start supplementing straight away, but the past experience of varicose veins with pregnenolone has my hesitant. I have some DHEA, T/e2 and cortisol results coming back early next week, so hopefully that'll provide some more insight.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Mentioned above, it's just been a week. But, I have noticed some positive subjective signs. No real negatives, other than some slight joint soreness, which might not be any more than normal, and some additional tiredness, which often happens when lowering stress hormones.

that's very encouraging! Seems like a great way to go. Are you taking exemestane for the AI?

 

[sladerunner69]

I'm on TRT and one of my main long-term concerns surrounding HPTA supression is becoming deficient in upstream hormones - pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA etc.

HCG @ 100iu every morning boosts my total testosterone by ~10 nmol/L, implyng that it does facilitate Cholesterol -> Preg conversion within the leydig cells. Is this enough to keep production of other upstream hormones which don't take the DHEA -> Test / e2 -> DHT pathway from becoming deficient?

I attempted to take both oral and transdermal pregnenolone (dosed at 15mg and 5mg respectivly) to prevent this issue, but both routes led to vascular pain, and later progressed to alterations to the appearance of veins (looked to be turning them varicose; this happened throughout my entire body).

If HCG isn't enough to solve this issue, what are my other options besides preg supplementation?

What is vascular pain? Pain in the veins around your entire body?

 

[Hanzo]

@tankasnowgod

extremely interested in an update! how did it go?

 

[tankasnowgod]

@tankasnowgod

extremely interested in an update! how did it go?

It went alright, but didn't see any major changes.

I did it for about a total of 3 months. I did see a drop in plasma estradiol levels, but no changes in T. Could have been due to not dialing in diet, or other things going on. One thing I did notice, at about month 3, I started to notice mood getting worse. That can be a side of Exemestane, apparently. I stopped it, and within a few days, mood noticeably improved.

I think the combo still has promise, but I didn't try it again.

I've since used a Progesterone + DHEA combo that seems superior. I notice an increase in muscles, and no negative effect on mood, if anything, it's positive. It didn't improve T levels, but did improve overall health. I'm sticking with that for now, interested in some of the longer term changes. I'm using a higher dose that Haidut suggested in his "Anti-Aging" post, but @SonOfEurope has posted some great longer term testimonials at a dose of (mostly) 38mg a day, from what I remember.

 

[Hanzo]

It went alright, but didn't see any major changes.

I did it for about a total of 3 months. I did see a drop in plasma estradiol levels, but no changes in T. Could have been due to not dialing in diet, or other things going on. One thing I did notice, at about month 3, I started to notice mood getting worse. That can be a side of Exemestane, apparently. I stopped it, and within a few days, mood noticeably improved.

I think the combo still has promise, but I didn't try it again.

I've since used a Progesterone + DHEA combo that seems superior. I notice an increase in muscles, and no negative effect on mood, if anything, it's positive. It didn't improve T levels, but did improve overall health. I'm sticking with that for now, interested in some of the longer term changes. I'm using a higher dose that Haidut suggested in his "Anti-Aging" post, but @SonOfEurope has posted some great longer term testimonials at a dose of (mostly) 38mg a day, from what I remember.

Good to know but it is sad it wasnt lasting. i want to try that prog dhea stack. so do you buy prog from idealabs and for the dhea just have it in pill or powder form or? 38mg of what exactly?