Is Facial Hair A Sign Of Poor Health?

[Greg says]

'Hair on neck, shoulder, sides of back and inside of ears/nose is a symptom of elevated cortisol and dropping gonadal androgens.' - Haidut

 

[artist]

Everything in the body is a tradeoff, there is not one linear metric of better or worse. Until very recent technological development, women and men's bodies had very specific roles to perform that involved doing things other than sitting under a coconut tree all day which seems to be the ideal of some members of this forum. Men needed to be physically strong and mentally hardened to some degree. Women spent most of our fertile years either pregnant or with a small child in tow, which is certainly harder on the body than not doing so and yet not everything in life is about leaving a beautiful corpse. However non-ideal you may find aggression and dominance, these are male traits that are necessary for a group's survival. Being ~chill~ is rewarded by being dominated by others who are willing to be aggressive. Neoteny might be ideal in the sense that children have the fastest metabolisms, but there are sacrifices for that, children are the most helpless people in any society, and they can't reproduce, and their metabolism doesn't change that. Puberty slows the metabolism but enables us to do the things we need to do as adults.

The other silly thing is the anti-genetics component of this board being so strong that people don't even bring up the fact that hairiness varies with ethnic group, dramatically, and no it isn't all just about the local diet. Different structures in the body evolved to suit different environments, a critical fact that for some reason is continually glossed over here. Just because it's mediated by diet doesn't mean diet/lifestyle are important to the exclusion of genetics. Different individuals and groups will succeed under different circumstances which is why there is a huge variety of human morphology and psychology so we don't get wiped out when one type becomes less suited to new conditions.

My 2 cents

 

[James IV]

I disagree with your assessment. I'm "chill" but I'm also mentally and physically stronger than my 20 something male clients that are super aggressive and overly alpha. I also work 2 jobs daily that are labor intensive, and have had "hard" jobs my entire life. The only time I feel the way you describe as "necessary for survival" is when I am overworked and underfed. I have a history of being offered raises quickly
in my jobs, because I know how to chameleon my personality to get along well with others, and persuasive enough to "manipulate" people. I don't see this as a negative trait.
Aggression and dominance is a great way to lead mentally weak people . But it's an ineffective way to lead intelligent people. Unfortunately I believe the majority of humans to be mentally weak, and therefore easily lead by aggression.
I had no hair on my back and shoulders while on keto. When I started eating Peat and drastically upping carbs, I grew hair on many places it never existed before. When I became more familiar with endotoxin and fermentable fibers, and began avoiding these, the hair slowly began to dissipate.
Of course genetics are a factor. But I think epigenetics are a larger one.

 

[opethfeldt]

Everything in the body is a tradeoff, there is not one linear metric of better or worse. Until very recent technological development, women and men's bodies had very specific roles to perform that involved doing things other than sitting under a coconut tree all day which seems to be the ideal of some members of this forum. Men needed to be physically strong and mentally hardened to some degree. Women spent most of our fertile years either pregnant or with a small child in tow, which is certainly harder on the body than not doing so and yet not everything in life is about leaving a beautiful corpse. However non-ideal you may find aggression and dominance, these are male traits that are necessary for a group's survival. Being ~chill~ is rewarded by being dominated by others who are willing to be aggressive. Neoteny might be ideal in the sense that children have the fastest metabolisms, but there are sacrifices for that, children are the most helpless people in any society, and they can't reproduce, and their metabolism doesn't change that. Puberty slows the metabolism but enables us to do the things we need to do as adults.

The other silly thing is the anti-genetics component of this board being so strong that people don't even bring up the fact that hairiness varies with ethnic group, dramatically, and no it isn't all just about the local diet. Different structures in the body evolved to suit different environments, a critical fact that for some reason is continually glossed over here. Just because it's mediated by diet doesn't mean diet/lifestyle are important to the exclusion of genetics. Different individuals and groups will succeed under different circumstances which is why there is a huge variety of human morphology and psychology so we don't get wiped out when one type becomes less suited to new conditions.

My 2 cents

While I do agree that there was once a time men had to be aggressive to survive, those days are long past. No one likes an overly aggressive, combative man in the modern world. The fact is, it's just not necessary anymore. You can be masculine and assertive without being aggressive and using force, either verbally or physically, to get your way. As @James IV said, any intelligent person will avoid a person like that and you won't get anywhere. Even less powerful people don't want to follow someone like that because they appear unstable. At the end of the day, being overly aggressive will not get you ahead and will most likely land you in prison or worse, you'll piss off someone even more aggressive and potentially pay the price for your ignorance. As for being relaxed and chill and being dominated, I disagree as well. Some of the most powerful people I know are very soft spoken and calm, but they have an air about them that tells you you don't want to get on their bad side. True alpha males are calm and assertive. The brash, swaggering men are pseudo alphas. I do think it's preferable to being a doormat, but not far above it.

 

[lvysaur]

My n=1. When I feel best (mellow, accepting, and sexual) my beard grows slowest and sparse. When I feel aggressive, unwavering, and stressed, beard looks thick and full. It's a noticeable difference.

I think body hair is related to endoxin and blood sugar.

+1 to that, both the physical and emotional traits you described. I think the beard stuff is just men clinging to a superficially masculine trait to feel secure about themselves. It's been scientifically proven (and anecdotally :^) )that women prefer light stubble anyway.

And fine, slow growing hair is just a permanent form of stubble.

 

[artist]

I disagree with your assessment. I'm "chill" but I'm also mentally and physically stronger than my 20 something male clients that are super aggressive and overly alpha. I also work 2 jobs daily that are labor intensive, and have had "hard" jobs my entire life. The only time I feel the way you describe as "necessary for survival" is when I am overworked and underfed. I have a history of being offered raises quickly
in my jobs, because I know how to chameleon my personality to get along well with others, and persuasive enough to "manipulate" people. I don't see this as a negative trait.
Aggression and dominance is a great way to lead mentally weak people . But it's an ineffective way to lead intelligent people. Unfortunately I believe the majority of humans to be mentally weak, and therefore easily lead by aggression.
I had no hair on my back and shoulders while on keto. When I started eating Peat and drastically upping carbs, I grew hair on many places it never existed before. When I became more familiar with endotoxin and fermentable fibers, and began avoiding these, the hair slowly began to dissipate.
Of course genetics are a factor. But I think epigenetics are a larger one.

While I do agree that there was once a time men had to be aggressive to survive, those days are long past. No one likes an overly aggressive, combative man in the modern world. The fact is, it's just not necessary anymore. You can be masculine and assertive without being aggressive and using force, either verbally or physically, to get your way. As @James IV said, any intelligent person will avoid a person like that and you won't get anywhere. Even less powerful people don't want to follow someone like that because they appear unstable. At the end of the day, being overly aggressive will not get you ahead and will most likely land you in prison or worse, you'll piss off someone even more aggressive and potentially pay the price for your ignorance. As for being relaxed and chill and being dominated, I disagree as well. Some of the most powerful people I know are very soft spoken and calm, but they have an air about them that tells you you don't want to get on their bad side. True alpha males are calm and assertive. The brash, swaggering men are pseudo alphas. I do think it's preferable to being a doormat, but not far above it.

We likely need to define our terms, but I find it funny how strong a negative connotation the words I chose have nowadays. There is obviously a range of "aggressive" behavior, I'm not talking about clubbing women over the head and dragging them back to the cave, nor am I talking about overdoing aggression when it's unnecessary. What people tend to find attractive in men (as leaders for men and partners for women) is both the strength/power to use force (physically and socially) when necessary matched with the discernment (intelligence) to avoid the necessity of it most of the time. That is masculinity in a nutshell, and I think people forget sexual dimorphism when they describe the ideal on this board. Compare men to women. Women are much more agreeable and neurotic than men on average (see big 5 personality studies). Men are far more *aggressive* in asking for what they want, commanding space physically and verbally, being the boss of other men in work situations etc. A professionally successful man doesn't have to be some socially retarded brute for those descriptors to apply. Women tend towards being more consensus building and go-along-to-get-along as well as being much more concerned with being liked and maintaining the social fabric. This is adaptive for women's evolved role in society, one that we are still psychologically programmed for in spite of technology slowly devolving us into amorphous plebs for a technocratic elite, but that's another story. We might not be cavemen but competition is still the name of the game in life outside the family, just in more complex ways. I'm making an admittedly broad critique of what I see as a simplistic and androgynous standard of mental and physical health that people use around here. Soon we'll have people saying penises are a sign of poor health because testosterone is why men tend to die earlier than women.

 

[Namer]

"Men are supposed to have beards and be hairy, it is a sign of strength, health and testosterone."

As a male ages, his testosterone falls, his body hair increases. A 21 year old male has more testosterone, and less body hair than a 30 or 40 year old male, who has less T but more body hair, also typically, less head hair.

No correlation between muscularity and body hair. Much more correlation with race and ancestral heritage. Blacks have more T than whites, they also tend to be more muscular, and have often almost no body hair.

"I would be concerned about a lack of hair, as in the case of a male that implies femininity and weakness."

Lol, castration anxiety much? keep telling yourself that baldness, and a slower metabolism ( the real reason older guys carry more muscle, sorry :) ) not to mention poor libido, are a sign of 'masculinity' but like it or not, these things tend to correlate with poor T levels, and hormonal dysfunction.

"A boy is unable to grow body hair, he is not developed, doesn't have the testosterone, when he hits puberty he grows body hair, facial hair, etc. If this doesn't happen, then it should be considered abnormal."

Explain why? ancestral heritage is the correlative factor here, not hormone levels per se, although such heritage may correlate with different hormone levels.

"A shaving society is an effeminate society; one can find the historical correlation between the rise of shaving and weakness/effeminacy."

Androgyny is not effeminate. Androgyny has to do with how people look, effeminacy has to do with behaviour. Graham Norton is effeminate, but not androgynous, Tom Cruise ( younger ) was androgynous, but not effeminate. Androgyny in males tends to correlate highly with superior intelligence, more civilized disposition, and greater inventiveness. THIS is the true strength which built civilization. Masculine neurology tends to correlate highly with aspergers behaviour, high intelligence and androgyny. Nerds built civilization, others just live in it.

Fun fact, some people are different, get over it. This ridiculous hatred of anything androgynous from the right, is just as crazy as the sjw's who want to destroy masculinity entirely.


"The only strange combination seen is hipsters, who somehow manage to have a beard, but their faces look very feminine somehow."

Ever consider that if most people don't fit your paradigm of what they should be, you might just be the odd one out?

 

[lvysaur]

Fun fact, some people are different, get over it. This ridiculous hatred of anything androgynous from the right, is just as crazy as the sjw's who want to destroy masculinity entirely.

The irony of it all is that these "masculine" traits that the right worships are not exemplified by whites, but rather by Middle easterners.

I feel the best when my facial hair slows down. I'm sticking with the Asians on this one.

Masculine neurology tends to correlate highly with aspergers behaviour, high intelligence and androgyny.

I would dispute that. Androgyny correlates more with spatial IQ and mental flexibility, or "true intelligence", as well as brain size. Masculine neurology tends to correlate with verbal and analytical skills.

It's the "paradox" where men have higher spatial and lower verbal IQ than women, but high T men have lower spatial and higher verbal IQ compared to low T men.

 

[Namer]

"It is just a sign of lower testosterone usually, I don't think evolution, but maybe from apathy from easier life, which causes the lower testosterone and thus the less hair."

More bro-science from crabs in the bucket.

"Interestingly you can find readings about how birth control effecting a woman's choice of man; often causing her to choose more of an effeminate one."

The birth control pill ( estrogen ) makes women choose beefier looking, less androgynous guys. It also makes women temporarily infertile. A similar phenomenon is seen with older women, whose fertility is falling and tend to lust after male athletes rather than pop- stars.

When a females progesterone is at it's highest, she's at her most fertile, or already pregnant. When her progesterone is low and her estrogen is high ( age, the pill ) she's less fertile, if at all.
Take a look at the guys that females at their peak fertility ( teenage years, early 20's ) go CRAZY over. And I mean crazy...no it's not mk-ultra at work, it's not 'the media' it's their youthful healthy hormones. Those are the guys that they want to be the father of their babies, whether you like it or not, whether THEY like it or not.

" I wonder if this is why women in the west mostly hate beards and want clean-shaven men. Social conditioning too, the media promotes Biebers and all those other strange creatures and the women flock to them as a result."

Keep telling yourself that their only pretending to be attracted to Beiber and a bunch of other pretty boys, to make a bunch of balding hairy aging losers jealous. Keep telling yourself that...

You wuz never Kangs.

 

[Peatogenic]

I wondered about why I have body hair growth practically everywhere ...except obvious places on face....but I even noticed hairs popping up higher on my cheek than seems healthy. The theory of adrenals overcompensating for poor thyroid seems plausible. When I started taking vitamin A, an estrogen antagonist, I noticed that my hair grows slower now.

 

[Luckytype]

Absolutely.

When I was estrogen dominant on the way back up, especially in the summer, I absolutely had more body hair. My facial hair darkened and my arms, hands, legs and torso absolutely thickened and grew faster. Bloodwork showed averageish T and higher than desirable E for that.

I had oily oily skin(more than normal), carried incredible water and was easily the heaviest ive ever been(intentional overfeeding nutrition caused this fat gain though). I had periods of hypersexuality, which at times was pleasant though.

DHT will absolutely swing in to counter E, and depending on your SHBG influences you could see some bound T unavailble.

Without a doubt in my mind, sometimes poor health can be found with more body hair.

 

[Peatogenic]

Absolutely.

When I was estrogen dominant on the way back up, especially in the summer, I absolutely had more body hair. My facial hair darkened and my arms, hands, legs and torso absolutely thickened and grew faster. Bloodwork showed averageish T and higher than desirable E for that.

I had oily oily skin(more than normal), carried incredible water and was easily the heaviest ive ever been(intentional overfeeding nutrition caused this fat gain though). I had periods of hypersexuality, which at times was pleasant though.

DHT will absolutely swing in to counter E, and depending on your SHBG influences you could see some bound T unavailble.

Without a doubt in my mind, sometimes poor health can be found with more body hair.

Did you notice changes to your body/face hair growth when you brought estrogen down?

 

[Peatogenic]

....also wondering now about how DEEP my voice got at like 15. It's always seemed to betray my look. Other people were even surprised by it when I was younger.

 

[Luckytype]

Did you notice changes to your body/face hair growth when you brought estrogen down?

Oddly yes, without a doubt, again noticed by others as well. Facial hair is lighter(though i kept the fill-in, whooop!), hands back to little hair, legs, arms, chest/torso back to normal.

I have bloodwork in a month or so, then again in Mayish, so i have objective stuff as a data point

 

[RisingSun]

I feel best when my facial hair is fine and slow growing. Ideally it should feel like peach fuzz.

I see a LOT of guys who have sparse, wiry looking facial hair, often with bad facial features, who are bald. My instinct is that such people aren't "meant" to have facial hair, and can only do so by overloading on adrenal-sourced androgens. I think a lot of these guys are going to be from places like Russia or eastern Europe, where people seem to have sparser beards.

You may want to take a flight to Russia or Bulgaria to double-check your statement if you think eastern europeans have sparse beards

 

[mangoes]

@Namer

I agree w/you but Tom Cruise androgynous? Where?

 

[RisingSun]

@Namer

I agree w/you but Tom Cruise androgynous? Where?

He is definitely not at the top of the masculine phenotype range, somewhere at 2/3rds I would say

 

[Peater Piper]

I found this interesting:

Linear facial hair growth and the density of facial hair were measured by a photographic method and their relationship to plasma testosterone (T) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) concentrations was examined in twelve healthy men. In addition, we investigated eight men with coeliac disease in whom we have previously demonstrated reversible androgen resistance. The divergence of plasma T (increased) and DHT (decreased) concentrations in this condition enabled examination of possible independent actions of these androgens on facial hair growth. Linear facial hair growth was significantly reduced in coeliac patients compared with controls and correlated with plasma DHT but not with plasma T concentration. Conversely, hair density was significantly greater in coeliacs than controls and correlated only with plasma T concentration. These abnormalities of facial hair growth and hair density appeared more marked in treated patients receiving a gluten-free diet. These findings suggest that T and DHT may have independent roles in the control of male facial hair growth, i.e. T for hair follicle priming and DHT for promotion of linear growth. The relationship between hair growth abnormalities in coeliac disease and withdrawal of dietary gluten requires further investigation.

So DHT is associated with the speed of growth. but testosterone determines the thickness. I used to think speed and thickness go together, and spent most of my 20's thinking I had a thin beard. Even after a week of growth it never looked like much. It wasn't until I spent a month in my 30's growing it out that I realized it was a lot thicker than I realized. I constantly received comments of surprise regarding its thickness from people who knew me. I've since enjoyed having a beard. I also think how dark a beard is will determine how thick it looks when shorter. Very dark beards make a nice shadow when only stubble, but lighter colored beards typically need to be longer before they're noticeable.

I've observed many of the caucasian men I see who have thin, sparse beards look unhealthy or unattractive (and they often seem to be the guys who try to grow out their facial hair to hide their features). The handsome men who look great with a clean shaven face also tend to have great beards. Even many men who have a more androgynous appearance can often grow nice beards, i.e. Jared Leto. Let me be clear that I've seen some obvious exceptions to the rule, but this is the general trend I've noticed.

Since someone mentioned Asian men, I don't think we can take them for an example and apply across races. They have fewer androgen receptors, so given the same exact hormonal profile, hair growth can be very different. I work with dozens of Asian Americans at my job, who are now eating pretty typical American diets, and without fail they have almost no facial or body hair, yet I'd be hard pressed to call many of them healthy compared to the general population.

Personally, I think examining facial hair growth to determine health is sketchy at best. I think there's a lot more evidence regarding body hair, however. As a hairy beast, I'd love to naturally reduce my body hair, but no dietary change or supplement has ever changed my body hair growth. Methods to reduce cortisol and estrogen didn't do a thing. Bummer.

 

[Xemnoraq]

Look at Brad Pitt in the movie Troy, absolute pure CHAD absolutely no body hair, full head of hair on his scalp and no facial hair but still looks more masculine than men with full beards etc.

I am also under the impression that body hair is a sign of estrogenicity and hypothyroidism/low body temp

Recently during a stressful period in my life i developed some extra body hair on my abdomen, at the same time that was developing i was also developing adipose fat in my abdomen area when ive had a 6 pack my whole life, all of this started happening after quitting smoking as well as covid hitting and not being able to work out at all for 2 years cause of doctor dickback faucci and the whole act lmfao, im definetely convinved that body hair is estrogenic and if a man is truly masculine he will look masculine even clean shaven such as Achillies in the movie Troy,

Im going to experiment with using topical progesterone on areas where body hair is becoming thicker and more coarse, Peat mentioned that topical progesterone can be used to reduce body hair, women with hirtuism is known to be driven by estrogen and topical progesterone apparently helps

 

[Xemnoraq]

case in point