I’m Not Convinced Vitamin D Should Be Supplemented

[MitchMitchell]

I was going through my old lectures on Calcium and did a double check firing up Pubmed... this scheme seems to make it pretty clear that calcitriol, just like PTH and Aldosterone should not be used up, to avoid intracellular calcification and higher blood pressure?



However, other studies have shown that low vitD is associated with high BP. Is it because serum calcitriol is being used up?

So what’s this forum opinion and experience with vitamin D as opposed to just consuming more calcium as per Ray? Me personally I can’t say I’ve seen a benefit from using more or less vitamin D. Bloodwork has gone from mildly deficient to borderline high and I saw very little differences. Interestingly it got high when I was consuming a lot of mineral water high in calcium which led me to believe that cells were turning off calcitriol putative receptors. Which leads to higher serum levels.

 

[Dobbler]

Danny and Georgi talked about this few weeks ago starting from 24:50

 

[rei]

You need to supplement 10.000 IU daily if there are no additional sources like sun or food. Getting it from the sun is preferable, but depending on where you live it might be completely impossible for more than half of the year. Do you want to spend that time in low metabolism survival mode?

Some sources indicate much smaller doses are sufficient if you put it on your skin, and for some reason especially on your navel.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

You need to supplement 10.000 IU daily if there are no additional sources like sun or food. Getting it from the sun is preferable, but depending on where you live it might be completely impossible for more than half of the year. Do you want to spend that time in low metabolism survival mode?

Some sources indicate much smaller doses are sufficient if you put it on your skin, and for some reason especially on your navel.

UvB lamps can substitute sun in terms of Vitamin D production.

 

[nikotrope]

I was a bit afraid of vitamin D supps for the same reason but decided to supplement 10k IU recently because my health gets worse for no reason except the lack of sunshine when autumn begins.

Last year, I only tried 1000-2000 IU per day and didn't notice anything and gave up. But with 10k IU per day, I felt a lot better: improved sleep, less headaches, better digestion, less cravings.

The effects are very subtle though. It improved my health tremendously yet I almost gave up after a couple weeks because I was not sure I was feeling an effect. And it might not help everyone but only those with specific conditions.

UVB lamps and taking vD supp topically is probably safer, but it's harder to know how much vD you really get and how much you need.

 

[not_James_Bond]

And if your not supplementing Magnesium with Vit D then don't even bother.

 

[rei]

UvB lamps can substitute sun in terms of Vitamin D production.

They are no substitute for sunlight. I'm not even at all sold on that being better than supplementing vitamin d. If you combined uvb and red light and nIR maybe.

 

[mrchibbs]

They are no substitute for sunlight. I'm not even at all sold on that being better than supplementing vitamin d. If you combined uvb and red light and nIR maybe.

This is what I do. It's not the sun, but the combination of red light and UVB feels good.

 

[mrchibbs]

I was going through my old lectures on Calcium and did a double check firing up Pubmed... this scheme seems to make it pretty clear that calcitriol, just like PTH and Aldosterone should not be used up, to avoid intracellular calcification and higher blood pressure?

However, other studies have shown that low vitD is associated with high BP. Is it because serum calcitriol is being used up?

So what’s this forum opinion and experience with vitamin D as opposed to just consuming more calcium as per Ray? Me personally I can’t say I’ve seen a benefit from using more or less vitamin D. Bloodwork has gone from mildly deficient to borderline high and I saw very little differences. Interestingly it got high when I was consuming a lot of mineral water high in calcium which led me to believe that cells were turning off calcitriol putative receptors. Which leads to higher serum levels.

I agree, I've had middling experiences with vitamin D supplementation. I've been reading a few papers by Michael Holick recently, and I've been digging into the metabolism of vitamin D via the oral route vs. the synthesis in the skin. I feel a million times better when I get sun exposure/tanning bed. Holick suggested a few times that the conversion of vitamin D in the liver, kidney and intestines can be impaired and considering a lot of the people who are ill on this forum have some sort of hypothyroidism, I'm betting the enzymes could be affected. I'm experimenting with UVB+NIR/RL combo to see if improves wellbeing.

However, the skin enzymatic activity is also affected by the metabolic rate, and I think several people experience difficulties tanning and producing vitamin D in the skin when the metabolism is impaired.

 

[boris]

@mrchibbs

Are you doing anything about the ozone produced by the UV light? I used an UV lamp last winter (OSRAM vitalux 300w, a popular reptile and suntanning lamp), 3-5 minutes was enough to make the room smell of ozone. I went with vitamin d this year, because I was uncomfortable breathing in the gas.

 

[redsun]

My vitamin D was shown low and is still low. I had some itchy eye symptoms and blurred vision and taking vitamin D made the itch uncontrollable and maddening. I finally figured out that was likely because conversion of vitamin D to active form depends on riboflavin. I took some B2 for a bit and it went away. Just another example that nothing you take is for free and you can be exacerbating other deficiencies when you are not aware of relationships between nutrients.

Never felt any benefit from vitamin D anyway. I am hesistant for the simple reason that mainstream health won't shut up about vitamin D supplements like they are godsend. No they are not. I get a few minutes of good sun I do not think we need massive amounts of sunlight or massive amounts of vitamin D.

Vitamin D is regulated in many ways and low 25-OH D merely means you lack the precursor but the reason you lack the precursor could very well be due to increased conversion due to calcium deficiency and not because you dont have enough sun exposure. Precursor has zero action of its own.

 

[ilhanxx]

I am afraid of uvb lambs, it can trigger skin cancer.

 

[mrchibbs]

@mrchibbs

Are you doing anything about the ozone produced by the UV light? I used an UV lamp last winter, 3-5 minutes was enough to make the room smell of ozone. I went with vitamin d this year, because I was uncomfortable breathing in the gas.

Good point. I haven't researched it in depth to be honest, because as opposed to say negative ion generators which are on all day, I'm only using the lamp for a few minutes a few times a week.

The Sperti Lamp has a ~280 to ~400 nm range (see study here) and based on what I've read most ozone is produced below 200nm, and according to this webpage, there shouldn't be a problem at that wavelength:

WHY UV-C CANNOT PRODUCE OZONE

This other website says:

"Ozone is produced from UV light wavelengths below 240 nm. Ozone production peaks at UV light wavelengths of 185 nm."

Ozone equipment manufacturer and ozone system integrators Ozone Production, how ozone is made Ozone Integration Experts

That being said, I should probably look into it a little deeper and not rely on random websites

 

[lampofred]

It should not be supplemented if blood calcium levels are low. Blood calcium isn't related to just calcium intake, a low salt intake relative to water can also cause low blood calcium, or too much fat relative to sugar. If blood calcium is high Vitamin D helps to decalcify and grows bone, but if blood calcium is low it does the opposite (by turning into the activated form).

 

[mrchibbs]

I am afraid of uvb lambs, it can trigger skin cancer.

I recommend Michael Holick's book, the vitamin D solution. He has a few sections on this topic. (I can send you the book if you want) And by following a low PUFA diet, I think we're a tad better off than most people (vulnerability involves ROS, iron, PUFAs etc.) But yeah, excessive UV exposure can cause skin aging and lead non-melanoma skin cancers. But at the same time UV or sunshine exposure greatly reduces the risk of the actual deadly melanomas. So it's an educated choice, because I get no sunshine exposure here, 8 months of the year.

 

[Giraffe]

I was going through my old lectures on Calcium and did a double check firing up Pubmed... this scheme seems to make it pretty clear that calcitriol, just like PTH and Aldosterone should not be used up, to avoid intracellular calcification and higher blood pressure?



However, other studies have shown that low vitD is associated with high BP. Is it because serum calcitriol is being used up?

So what’s this forum opinion and experience with vitamin D as opposed to just consuming more calcium as per Ray? Me personally I can’t say I’ve seen a benefit from using more or less vitamin D. Bloodwork has gone from mildly deficient to borderline high and I saw very little differences. Interestingly it got high when I was consuming a lot of mineral water high in calcium which led me to believe that cells were turning off calcitriol putative receptors. Which leads to higher serum levels.

Calcitriol [1,25(OH)2] is tightly regulated by the body, and it has a short half-life. In supplements is cholecalciferol [D3]. I have seen a pharmaceutical drug with calcitriol and calcium; I wouldn't take it.

See my other post here.

 

[ilhanxx]

I recommend Michael Holick's book, the vitamin D solution. He has a few sections on this topic. (I can send you the book if you want) And by following a low PUFA diet, I think we're a tad better off than most people (vulnerability involves ROS, iron, PUFAs etc.) But yeah, excessive UV exposure can cause skin aging and lead non-melanoma skin cancers. But at the same time UV or sunshine exposure greatly reduces the risk of the actual deadly melanomas. So it's an educated choice, because I get no sunshine exposure here, 8 months of the year.

thanks for great explanation, If you have pdf or epub copy, I want to read it.

 

[boris]

Good point. I haven't researched it in depth to be honest, because as opposed to say negative ion generators which are on all day, I'm only using the lamp for a few minutes a few times a week.

The Sperti Lamp has a ~280 to ~400 nm range (THE EFFECT OF ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION FROM A NOVEL PORTABLE FLUORESCENT LAMP ON SERUM 25-HYDROXYVITAMIN D3 LEVELS IN HEALTHY ADULTS WITH FITZPATRICK SKIN TYPES II AND III) and based on what I've read most ozone is produced below 200nm, and according to this webpage, there shouldn't be a problem at that wavelength:

WHY UV-C CANNOT PRODUCE OZONE

This other website says:

"Ozone is produced from UV light wavelengths below 240 nm. Ozone production peaks at UV light wavelengths of 185 nm."

Ozone equipment manufacturer and ozone system integrators Ozone Production, how ozone is made Ozone Integration Experts

That being said, I should probably look into it a little deeper and not rely on random websites

Thanks, I looked up my lamp (OSRAM vitalux) and it's supposed to produce a 280 to 400nm wavelenght, too. But the actual output might differ depending on how new the bulb is. The Sperti Lamp is really expensive in comparison, I guess it's more fine tuned. Do you get any noticable ozone smell with it (smells like an "electrical spark"/burnt/rainy)?

 

[MitchMitchell]

Some good points made here. I’m on the side of vitamin D supplements not being the be all end all in case of low 25OHD (that said if it worked for someone here, great). There’s definitely always a reason for a specific hormone going low in the serum.

whether this is caused by low riboflavin, or magnesium, or calcium, or all of the above, remains to be investigated. My take is on “all of the above”. It’s kinda like hypothyroidism... lack of ammo = slow metabolism = hormonal issues “corrected”’ by the pituitary. Seems that one way or the other things always circle back to how trashed our food supply is with a massive excess of fat vs glucose.

 

[mrchibbs]

Thanks, I looked up my lamp (OSRAM vitalux) and it's supposed to produce a 280 to 400nm wavelenght, too. But the actual output might differ depending on how new the bulb is. The Sperti Lamp is really expensive in comparison, I guess it's more fine tuned. Do you get any noticable ozone smell with it (smells like an "electrical spark"/burnt/rainy)?

I haven't so far, but maybe I will now that I start paying attention to it. I'm hoping the extra cost will prove to be worth it

I will let you know after I do my next session.