High Calcium Intake + Vitamin D Is Bad Combo?

[Kunstruct]

You have to remember that sunbathing and revealing clothing are very modern phenomena. This is how our farmer ancestors dressed, they would at most have exposed part of the forearms. This is from early 20th century but take a look at paintings from any era and you will find equally covering clothing.

I must say that historically people wore a lot of things on their heads in europe, no one was really working in the field with their head uncovered, male or female.

Actually it is the last 3-4 years that I have seen people really not wearing anything on their head summer or winter, maybe 1 out of 100 wears anything.

 

[Giraffe]

Vit D can cause hypercalcemia at far lower intakes if your calcium intake is sufficiently high, here it was only 5500 IU/day with 2g of calcium a day, easily obtained with milk.

Severe Hypercalcemia Following Vitamin D Supplementation in a Patient With Multiple Sclerosis

That was 2020 mg of supplemented calcium on top of whatever she got from her diet. And this for two years. If you get the calcium from your diet, it comes with a lot of other minerals and vitamins. Maybe 2 grams from supplement for a prolonged period is too much of a good thing.

And they mention that "six months before admission, her 25-OH D serum level was 83 ng/mL". Why didn't they reduce the vitamin D dosage then?

Our patient demonstrated hypercalcemia from the cumulative effect of 5500 IU of cholecalciferol and 2020 mg of elemental calcium daily. These are not unusually high doses of either supplement, and it is unclear why our patient experienced toxic effects from a dose of daily cholecalciferol that has been tolerated by many other patients. Possible reasons for our patient's adverse response include her prolonged use of both high-dose cholecalciferol and calcium supplementation (for 2 years), her ingestion of almost twice the amount of elemental calcium taken by many patients, immobility, medication interactions, or her unique metabolism.

 

[Collden]

Okay, so I may have misunderstood the dosing of the drug, but the researchers dismissal of it as a cause is beyond ridiculous, as is yours. One of it's functions is to affect serum calcium levels. If you look at side effects, it can also lower levels potassium, magnesium, and sodium. To me, the more likely reason why they didn't consider this as an explanation is to not offend the pharmaceutical industry.

Not to mention the same patient was on a cocktail of other serious drugs for over a decade, has two degenerative diseases, and has impaired bowel and bladder function.

So again, unless you have MS, bowel and bladder impairment, and are taking zoledronic acid (and maybe a host of other drugs), those levels of calcium and Vitamin D intake just shouldn't be of concern.

I think her condition made her more susceptible, but the high dose Vit D was the trigger, she had normal calcium levels for 7 years while taking the drug.

There are enough anecdotal reports just on this forum of adverse effects from moderate supplementation. Then you can never be sure that your supplement really contains what it says since there are more than a dozen studies on people overdosing from incorrectly formulated pills. I mean, if you respond well to a supplement by all means continue, but it definitely can cause issues in some situations.

Personally, I eat a lot of dairy, up till now I was also taking 2000 IU D3 + 100mcg K2 in the morning for many months, started to feel increasingly off in the past couple of weeks - digestive problems, very frequent urination in the morning, constantly feeling on edge and not sleeping well. I stopped taking the supplement a few days ago and instantly the need to piss 8 times before noon went away, and I feel way more relaxed in the evenings now.

 

[milkbasedvegan]

taking 2000 IU D3 + 100mcg K2 in the morning for many months, started to feel increasingly off in the past couple of weeks - digestive problems, very frequent urination in the morning, constantly feeling on edge and not sleeping well. I stopped taking the supplement a few days ago and instantly the need to piss 8 times before noon went away, and I feel way more relaxed in the evenings now.

Same here!

 

[Kingpinguin]

You have to remember that sunbathing and revealing clothing are very modern phenomena. This is how our farmer ancestors dressed, they would at most have exposed part of the forearms. This is from early 20th century but take a look at paintings from any era and you will find equally covering clothing. View attachment 16825

those farmers are the same farmers that had children with rickets dude. Read about rickets. It was especially around that time in the northern countries where it was already cloudy and people was well dressed that rickets/vitamin D deficiency became common. Sunbathing people today dont have vitamin D deficiency.
It was especially in these farmers that vitamin D deficiency was so common.
It was these same farmers you show case that the firt symptoms of severe vitamin D deficiency came to light. These farmers died at young age aswell and they didnt become very tall back then.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...dieval_Farming_Community_from_the_Netherlands

Rickets is caused by vitamin D deficiency as a result of limited exposure to sunlight and inadequate diet. In the 19th century, rickets was endemic in most northern European cities. In post-Medieval Netherlands, rickets is documented in low frequencies in a few urban samples, but has not been studied in contemporaneous rural populations. Beemster is a rural farming community in the Netherlands that was established in the 17th century upon drained land, with the Middenbeemster cemetery in use until 1866 AD. Ninety-five individuals from the ages of 32 weeks in utero to 15 years were examined for rickets in order to understand factors that can cause vitamin D deficiency in rural, non-industrialized populations. To identify rickets in the Beemster sample, ten features were scored, with bending deformities of the lower limb and one other feature, or at least three non-bending features, having to be present in order for diagnosis. Nine individuals (9.5%) had evidence of rickets—a high prevalence, especially for a rural community where ample sunlight was available.


My father was born with rickets he’s scandinavian where my grandfather was a farmer. Everyone here knows that avoiding sun causes rickets and that farmers with the thick clothes on working just like my grandfather in the northern country it was very common.
You think vitamin D deficiency is common today? Compared to back then it was not. Coal miners also had problems because they spendt their days inside a cave. They died like flies. Both from sun deficiency. Weak bones and the soot. Dont complain that we are unhealthier today then before. You don’t seem to know what it was like 100-200 years ago.
An example was bread during victorian timesz bread was the main staple of a diet back then. Imagine that eating mostly bread. And the bread was not even good. It was adulterated containing chalk (make it whiter) and aluminum so it weighed more. People got severe diarrea from this and died like flies aswell. Google victorian bread adulteration. It was common. No one looked what was in the food back then. You had no antibioctics. No science studies on your iphone giving you all the answers about vitamin D deficiency. You couldnt do a blood test. You just got deficient and diarrea and died man.
We have it so much better today. Still sit at ray peat forum complain our world is crap. Tin foil hat to protect against EMF... Worried your penis cant get hard anymore. This is what is actually sad today and wrong today to some degree.

 

[Collden]

@Kingpinguin

You're kind of moving the goalposts now though, first you said we need Vitamin D supps because we're no longer out in the sun all day like our ancestors, and now you're saying our ancestors all had rickets due to Vitamin D deficiency?

Anyway, Rickets is mostly due to calcium deficiency, hence why the disease is by far most common in Africa, Asia and the Middle East where they have no deficiency of sunlight, but do have very calcium-poor grain-based diets.

It is funny that after being at an all time low after WW2, Rickets has steadily been increasing for the past 20 years in many developed countries, despite the fact that Vitamin D alarmism started to take off even earlier. The number of people doing Vitamin D testing, using indoor tanning saloons, dressing in skimpy clothing, going on sun vacations and taking supplements has sky-rocketed during this period.

With all that I find it really hard to believe that people are getting less Vitamin D today than 20 years ago. If this is not simply an artifact of better diagnostics, it might have something to do with the rise of veganism and rejection of dairy consumption by a growing portion of the population.

 

[Kingpinguin]

@Kingpinguin

You're kind of moving the goalposts now though, first you said we need Vitamin D supps because we're no longer out in the sun all day like our ancestors, and now you're saying our ancestors all had rickets due to Vitamin D deficiency?

Anyway, Rickets is mostly due to calcium deficiency, hence why the disease is by far most common in Africa, Asia and the Middle East where they have no deficiency of sunlight, but do have very calcium-poor grain-based diets.

It is funny that after being at an all time after WW2, Rickets has steadily been increasing for the past 20 years in many developed countries, despite the fact that Vitamin D alarmism started to take off even earlier. The number of people doing Vitamin D testing, using indoor tanning saloons, dressing in skimpy clothing, going on sun vacations and taking supplements has sky-rocketed during this period.

With all that I find it really hard to believe that people are getting less Vitamin D today than 20 years ago. If this is not simply an artifact of better diagnostics, it might have something to do with the rise of veganism and rejection of dairy consumption by a growing portion of the population.

Did not say we need vitamin D and then said we don’t. I said people still have vitamin D deficiency for different reasons. One was office jobs. Those people don’t spend alot of time in the sun. Specially if they live in a northern part where its further limited. Even if it’s easier today to have a vacation once or twice per year in the sun that won’t be enough. For those people vitamin D would probably be beneficial. For a person sunbathing regularly it likely would not. Not everyone lives the same life. And yeah obviously calcium deficiency is also a cause. Any deficiency is bad. In Africa, middle east etc they have bigger problems than just calcium deficiency. Like multiple deficiencies and starvation. Their circumstances are different than in europe and US. But yeah calcium is a part of the puzzle. But Ingesting lots of dairy/calcium foods and avoiding the sun will still cause rickets. Like you originally said vitamin D needed for absorption. Calcium is the actual component needed for bone formation. So both are needed. But calcium is useless if you already vitamin D deficient.

 

[Elize]

I get bad body aches from K and D.

 

[Amazoniac]

My last heart US show mild calcification of all three of my valves.
I had severe PVC (heart stops every 4-5 seconds all day long all last winter long )some prolapse and some leakiness before but not calcium deposits.
Last year I was diagnosed low V-D (29), start 2000, then 5000 v-d for more then year, also start Ca carbonate about 500 mg additionally to my usual some milk, cheese, ice cream. Also K2 - 5-2,5 mg. Some aspirin.
Surprise - my PVC almost gone! (Was BIG deal for me not to feel like dying every minute!)
But calcium deposit is not pleasant at all!
My V-D is now 34(!after more then year supplementation of 5000! and didn't up at summer, the sun didn't help),
looks like i need more supl.
?? So.. Now.. what ..?

Cardiovascular system suffers a lot from microbial toxins, you could be taking care of this aspect inadvertently with your interventions.

@Amazoniac I am still unfamiliar with this fantastic forum - are you saying calcium is good (as per Ray) but becomes lethal (killcium??) with excess vitamin D??? If not, do you recommend low calcium (how about PTH?) low phosphorus (?) high magnesium then?

It is my opinion that vitamin D supplements are a scam. However, some people seem to respond very well to them... my SO does but eats a pretty low calcium diet.

No, I was being toxic. I think that the reason why people repeat so much that venom D is a hormone is because it's difficult to assimilate such information once we associate it with nutrients.

@Amazoniac
That is an interesting study, but I saw no measuement of calcium intake or PTH levels in these subjects, would you expect that the beneficial effect observed with Vit D would have been mediated by a decrease in PTH?

I haven't thought about it. But I would start here (killcium and killciol):
- Why Ray Recommends Eating Lots Of Calcium
- Be Wary Of Vitamin D Supplementation (after the second-last spoiler)

Was just listening to the Chris Masterjohn AMA podcast this afternoon. He boiled it down to suppression of PTH. If your PTH is at the low end of the range then not to worry about Vit D status (unless you start hitting below 25ng/dl).

There are different ways of accomplishing it, that's what's being argued here. The majority of it is reduced at moderate levels of killcidiol (35 ng/ml), so it wouldn't make sense for Raj to be recommending to keep it high at 50 ng/ml if the benefits stopped earlier. However..
- Are we overrating the extra-skeletal benefits of oral vitamin D supplementation?

An example was bread during victorian timesz bread was the main staple of a diet back then. Imagine that eating mostly bread. And the bread was not even good. It was adulterated containing chalk (make it whiter) and aluminum so it weighed more.

- Commentary: John Snow and alum-induced rickets from adulterated London bread: an overlooked contribution to metabolic bone disease
It would be interesting to know the effect of killcium from chalk, you need a minimum of phosphatal in the diet for it not to be an issue.

 

[sunraiser]

Rickets is clearly more linked to poverty above just simple sun exposure.
I don't think people getting rickets were rich enough to have the varied diet that facilitates higher calcium metabolism. Combined with poverty stress.

I spent a good few years never seeing the sun (gaming) as did my peers and noone developed rickets.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Interaction between Vitamin D and calcium

"It is possible to live without the active vitamin D metabolite 1,25(OH)2D and vitamin D receptor. However, this requires a very high calcium intake as only passive diffusion of calcium in the intestine can supply the calcium for bone mineralization in this situation. An adequate vitamin D status makes calcium intake more flexible. A low calcium intake causes a high turnover of vitamin D metabolites, due to higher production of 1,25(OH)2D and higher breakdown of vitamin D metabolites. A low calcium intake causes or aggravates vitamin D deficiency while a high calcium intake is vitamin D sparing."

"Experiments in rats on different calcium intakes showed that there was a relationship between calcium intake and the half life of serum 25(OH)D concentration. When calcium intake was higher, the half life of 25(OH)D was longer, indicating a vitamin D sparing effect. Serum 25(OH)D concentration decreased faster in rats with a very low calcium intake than in rats with a high calcium intake [11]. In patients with primary hyperparathyroidism or secondary hyperparathyroidism after gastrectomy serum 1,25(OH)2D concentration showed a relationship with the half life of serum 25(OH)D; the higher the 1,25(OH)2D concentration the shorter the half life of 25(OH)D [12]. The authors concluded that high concentrations of 1,25(OH)2D and PTH in these circumstances stimulated the breakdown of 25(OH)D. More recently the effect of dietary calcium on the synthesis of 1,25(OH)2D and the metabolism of 25(OH)D was studied in rats. The authors opserveq that increasing the dietary calcium content from 0.1 to 1.0% led to an increase of 25(OH)D concentration from 22 to 85 nmol/L. However, the 1,25(OH)2D concentration was much higher in the rats on a low calcium and low vitamin D diet than in the rats with either a low vitamin D and high calcium diet or rats with a high calcium and high vitamin D diet [13]. When studying the kidney tissue of these rats they observed that the 1α-hydroxylase or CYP27B1 mRNA was induced by low calcium diet. On the other side CYP24 was stimulated by a high vitamin D diet. These studies show that a high calcium intake has a vitamin D sparing effect."

"Clinical trials with vitamin D with or without calcium sometimes show contradicting results. The effect size and significance regarding a decrease of fracture incidence depend on baseline calcium intake, baseline vitamin D status, calcium and vitamin D supplement doses, age, housing situation and compliance. Meta-analyses on vitamin D for fracture prevention suggest that a combination of vitamin D and calcium is more effective than vitamin D alone. When prescribing vitamin D or calcium supplements one should remember the interaction between calcium and vitamin D."​

This study might be of some value if the researchers had given more information.

Hypercalciuria

• In the study "Hypercalciuria was defined as a 24-hour urine calcium excretion over 250 mg, the generally accepted value for white women." Wikipedia says 275 is normal.
  
• Other sources like this say "hypercalciuria is defined as urinary calcium >4 mg/kg/day." They weight of the women is not mentioned in the study.
  
• And wouldn't you expect that the high vitamin D group has more calcium in the urine because they absorbed more in the first place? (Am I missing something?)

Hypercalcemia

• In the study "hypercalcemia was defined as a serum calcium>10.2 mg/100 ml (laboratory upper range)." vs. wikipedia "the normal range is 2.1–2.6 mmol/L (8.8–10.7 mg/dL, 4.3–5.2 mEq/L)."
• The number of events did not differ much between the groups to beginn with. After correcting for albumin it was "not statistically significant".

Adverse Events

• no difference between the groups

No control group?

• No data of women that were not supplemented at all. Would they maybe have had more events??

Attached the full text of the study

Ihre angehängte Datei wurde einmal heruntergeladen, was für das Belohnungssystem giftig ist.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I think her condition made her more susceptible, but the high dose Vit D was the trigger, she had normal calcium levels for 7 years while taking the drug.

There are enough anecdotal reports just on this forum of adverse effects from moderate supplementation. Then you can never be sure that your supplement really contains what it says since there are more than a dozen studies on people overdosing from incorrectly formulated pills. I mean, if you respond well to a supplement by all means continue, but it definitely can cause issues in some situations.

Personally, I eat a lot of dairy, up till now I was also taking 2000 IU D3 + 100mcg K2 in the morning for many months, started to feel increasingly off in the past couple of weeks - digestive problems, very frequent urination in the morning, constantly feeling on edge and not sleeping well. I stopped taking the supplement a few days ago and instantly the need to piss 8 times before noon went away, and I feel way more relaxed in the evenings now.

But its only a dozen of studies,compared to the billions of people who get advantage with D.I concluded that D just normalizes Ca-req which is artificially inflated by D-deficiency.Once D is sufficient,Ca from high quantity of Milkconsumption becomes a burden.I see D as the Dominant Sun,which we have to abide,and high-volume Milk Drinking as the artifical Derangement Factor.Also,Milk Alkali Syndrome as possible confounding factor,and low therapeutic breadth for Ca in general.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

those farmers are the same farmers that had children with rickets dude. Read about rickets. It was especially around that time in the northern countries where it was already cloudy and people was well dressed that rickets/vitamin D deficiency became common. Sunbathing people today dont have vitamin D deficiency.
It was especially in these farmers that vitamin D deficiency was so common.
It was these same farmers you show case that the firt symptoms of severe vitamin D deficiency came to light. These farmers died at young age aswell and they didnt become very tall back then.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...dieval_Farming_Community_from_the_Netherlands

Rickets is caused by vitamin D deficiency as a result of limited exposure to sunlight and inadequate diet. In the 19th century, rickets was endemic in most northern European cities. In post-Medieval Netherlands, rickets is documented in low frequencies in a few urban samples, but has not been studied in contemporaneous rural populations. Beemster is a rural farming community in the Netherlands that was established in the 17th century upon drained land, with the Middenbeemster cemetery in use until 1866 AD. Ninety-five individuals from the ages of 32 weeks in utero to 15 years were examined for rickets in order to understand factors that can cause vitamin D deficiency in rural, non-industrialized populations. To identify rickets in the Beemster sample, ten features were scored, with bending deformities of the lower limb and one other feature, or at least three non-bending features, having to be present in order for diagnosis. Nine individuals (9.5%) had evidence of rickets—a high prevalence, especially for a rural community where ample sunlight was available.
View attachment 16828

My father was born with rickets he’s scandinavian where my grandfather was a farmer. Everyone here knows that avoiding sun causes rickets and that farmers with the thick clothes on working just like my grandfather in the northern country it was very common.
You think vitamin D deficiency is common today? Compared to back then it was not. Coal miners also had problems because they spendt their days inside a cave. They died like flies. Both from sun deficiency. Weak bones and the soot. Dont complain that we are unhealthier today then before. You don’t seem to know what it was like 100-200 years ago.
An example was bread during victorian timesz bread was the main staple of a diet back then. Imagine that eating mostly bread. And the bread was not even good. It was adulterated containing chalk (make it whiter) and aluminum so it weighed more. People got severe diarrea from this and died like flies aswell. Google victorian bread adulteration. It was common. No one looked what was in the food back then. You had no antibioctics. No science studies on your iphone giving you all the answers about vitamin D deficiency. You couldnt do a blood test. You just got deficient and diarrea and died man.
We have it so much better today. Still sit at ray peat forum complain our world is crap. Tin foil hat to protect against EMF... Worried your penis cant get hard anymore. This is what is actually sad today and wrong today to some degree.

+1
nice! healthy truthvalues!

 

[Collden]

But its only a dozen of studies,compared to the billions of people who get advantage with D.I concluded that D just normalizes Ca-req which is artificially inflated by D-deficiency.Once D is sufficient,Ca from high quantity of Milkconsumption becomes a burden.I see D as the Dominant Sun,which we have to abide,and high-volume Milk Drinking as the artifical Derangement Factor.Also,Milk Alkali Syndrome as possible confounding factor,and low therapeutic breadth for Ca in general.

I'd disagree in the sense that certain populations, ie northerners, have become adapted to high diary consumption and low sunshine exposure and might benefit from staying aligned with their ancestral environment rather than supplementing D just because its trendy. I love milk and do not particularly enjoy being in the sun for too long, but know many, especially southerners, who are the complete opposite.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I'd disagree in the sense that certain populations, ie northerners, have become adapted to high diary consumption and low sunshine exposure and might benefit from staying aligned with their ancestral environment rather than supplementing D just because its trendy. I love milk and do not particularly enjoy being in the sun for too long, but know many, especially southerners, who are the complete opposite.

I held similar ideas in the past,my refined recognition was that evolution is imperfect,and for complex systems a one way road,as in forward programming can bring meaningful change,but not in a reverse-type of motion,were all interdependencies are already set.
For the plausible adaptations,there must be high selective pressure and Bias against survival and reproduction,that werent there for D,imo.D insufficiency,and even deficiency are maiming and mutilating those that are subjected,but dont make them infertile enough,or disordered enough,severely,but still not enough,to deselect the already confounded traits which could be selected against at.D-deficiency is just degenerating its victims,but not enough to hinder effective reproduction,hence no evolutionary Adaptations occured,or only slightly,so,or confounded ones.

 

[Collden]

I held similar ideas in the past,my refined recognition was that evolution is imperfect,and for complex systems a one way road,as in forward programming can bring meaningful change,but not in a reverse-type of motion,were all interdependencies are already set.
For the plausible adaptations,there must be high selective pressure and Bias against survival and reproduction,that werent there for D,imo.D insufficiency,and even deficiency are maiming and mutilating those that are subjected,but dont make them infertile enough,or disordered enough,severely,but still not enough,to deselect the already confounded traits which could be selected against at.D-deficiency is just degenerating its victims,but not enough to hinder effective reproduction,hence no evolutionary Adaptations occured,or only slightly,so,or confounded ones.

Why is high D and low calcium intake necessarily better than low D and high calcium intake since both result in absorbing similar amounts of calcium?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Why is high D and low calcium intake necessarily better than low D and high calcium intake since both result in absorbing similar amounts of calcium?

I have trust in the idea that D is about Genomic Effects,controlling the controlling gene-clusters foremost,and that Ca-regulation and PTH are important parts in it,but that D is a general purpose Immune-Hormone,which is engaged in general purpose Tissue apportion,maintenance,structure-forming and Invader detection and Elimination.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Why is high D and low calcium intake necessarily better than low D and high calcium intake since both result in absorbing similar amounts of calcium?

Why high of any of them? Why not just moderate? That would seem the best. You reassure you have vitamin D not just for its calcium absorbing properties but for its immuno modultory and gene activation properties. And you have enough calcium to supply the raw material for bone? Vitamim D is not only for bone health. Calcium has more functions than bone health aswell.

 

[Kingpinguin]

I have trust in the idea that D is about Genomic Effects,controlling the controlling gene-clusters foremost,and that Ca-regulation and PTH are important parts in it,but that D is a general purpose Immune-Hormone,which is engaged in general purpose Tissue apportion,maintenance,structure-forming and Invader detection and Elimination.

this aswell. Vitamim D is not just for bones wtf.

 

[baccheion]

Vitamin D is the last supplement to add if not doing anything special. Lower vitamin D usually really implies insufficient magnesium and maybe other nutrients. Leave at 1,000 IU or about what's in most supplements, fix everything else, including calcium:magnesium ratio and cofactors/boron, then add vitamin D if serum is still not in range.

Higher intake of calcium can coexist with higher intakes of vitamin D3 if there's sufficient vitamin K2 (at least 1,000-2,000 mcg MK-4 and 100-200 mcg MK-7 per 10,000 IU) and magnesium.