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Vitamin D Is As Bad In Excess As It Is In Deficiency

haidut

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The study said that vitamin D levels above 100nmol/L were associated with higher risk from CVD and stroke. I don't have access to the study so I don't know what the mortality was from in the low ranges. Presumably, the higher than optimal vitamin D levels probably caused arterial calcification, and the lower ones increased PTH. The study abstract says both calcium and PTH were factors influencing all-cause mortality. Since low calcium was also associated with mortality, I suspect this is due to kidney disease as it is the main cause of low serum calcium.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 105222.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22573406
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25710567

"...RESULTS: During follow-up (median, 3.07 yr), 15,198 (6.1%) subjects died. A reverse J-shaped association between serum level of 25(OH)D and mortality was observed. A serum 25(OH)D level of 50-60 nmol/liter was associated with the lowest mortality risk. Compared to 50 nmol/liter, the hazard ratios (95% confidence intervals) of all-cause mortality at very low (10 nmol/liter) and high (140 nmol/liter) serum levels of 25(OH)D were 2.13 (2.02-2.24) and 1.42 (1.31-1.53), respectively. Similarly, both high and low levels of albumin-adjusted serum calcium and serum PTH were associated with an increased mortality, and secondary hyperparathyroidism was associated with higher mortality (P < 0.0001)."
 

Sheila

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I am so glad you posted this thank you. Many kidney patients are given Vitamin D routinely and it definitely makes some of them worse. My experience is they are better at 50- 55 nmol/L which according to levels here is 'adequate'. I am thinking that Vitamin A deficiency might be a rate defining step if Vitamin D upsets them but kidney disease is so complicated it's difficult to know. Some obvious improvements with thiamine though, even at low doses (100mg) and does not seem to throw out other markers. Dialysis must represent a huge shock to the system thrice weekly and the Bs must get very washed out each time. Thanks for this research.
Sheila
 

haidut

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schultz said:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/10.1210/jc.2012-1176

Is this it?

Yes, thanks. I realized the study was freely available after I posted the thread.
 

kineticz

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Vitamin D has paradoxical reactions in me. Sometimes, it can make me really fatigued. Other times, it can really boost my mood.

In recent years, as summer approaches, my health gets worse.

In oral form, I don't get on well with it in any event.
 

haidut

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paymanz

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agree ,too much vitamin d is even worst than low vit d.especially with low vitamin A and K status.once i reached 111ng/dl , that was baddest experience in my health.
 

YuraCZ

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paymanz said:
agree ,too much vitamin d is even worst than low vit d.especially with low vitamin A and K status.once i reached 111ng/dl , that was baddest experience in my health.
and what happened?
 

BingDing

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There is some discussion of the second study at this Vitamin D council page. High Cod liver oil and high latitude might be part of the result.

Mittir cited that page and some others at the end of this thread.
 

paymanz

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YuraCZ said:
paymanz said:
agree ,too much vitamin d is even worst than low vit d.especially with low vitamin A and K status.once i reached 111ng/dl , that was baddest experience in my health.
and what happened?
poor memory,headaches , low energy ,mental confusion, my body felt dry.i couldnt focus well , excess calcification in my chest bones,weight loss , and lasted for months or maybe more to become better.will never go more than 2000-3000 iu vid/day unless test my blood regulary. i dont think more than 4 ng/dl is good.
 

Sol Invictus

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Wow mine was at 128.8 nmol/L, and yet my parathyroid values were at 24 ng/L. At least I have been taking it with Vit K2. Does anyone know how long it would take to lower this to acceptable values. Also what is the half life of D3?
 

sladerunner69

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I've read it is so difficult to over supplement vitmin d that one could take 10k iu's daily and not be concerned.... the normal count should be around 50k iu and much of it is excreted through the urine. :ninja
 

paymanz

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sladerunner69 said:
post 118228 I've read it is so difficult to over supplement vitmin d that one could take 10k iu's daily and not be concerned.... the normal count should be around 50k iu and much of it is excreted through the urine. :ninja
not that easy...half life is up to 25-30 days
 
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I've taken 50K units per day for weeks sometimes, and my levels o the lab show at around 72 ng/mL

I take it with K2 and A and some E also...but even so, it's hard to bump up levels for me. Not sure why but I'm satisfied at this level and only take it occasionally. I'm using the LLLT and I think that should really help ameliorate the need for extra D3
 

Amazoniac

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haidut, are you aware of any downside of D3 in supplemental form?
I've read somethings about the sulfated form derived from sun and other possible metabolites generated in the process being safer and more beneficial, and also diffusing better throughout the body by not requiring lipoproteins for transport.

I wonder if you have any opinion on that, regardless of having ideal circulating levels in the blood..
 

Mr Rossi

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My experience with Vitamin D are very bad.
I took high doses for several months. Between 20.000IU - 60.000IU daily and drank a lot of milk.

I tested 3 times.
At the beginning my Vit D level was about 40ng/ml.
After 2 months it was about 125ng/ml.
After 3 months it was about 170ng/ml.

I took only Vit D without Vitamin K and A.
My alternative practitioner said it would be no problem for several months to take Vitamin D only. Afterwards he wasn't right.

I got very bad mood and was almost always excitable.
I got a mild depression with anxiety and my erectile dysfunction was at its worst. Libido no longer existent.
I was very sick, my energy was also bad and I was frequently unable to work.
 

tara

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I took high doses for several months. Between 20.000IU - 60.000IU daily and drank a lot of milk.
Thanks for reporting effects. That's very high dosing you were taking.
Just out of curiousity, in case you happened to measure this, did you happen to notice what your UpH was before, during and after this period of supplementation?
 

Amazoniac

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Hello haidut,
I don't know if you read it, but I left a question for you on this thread, it would be nice if you could give your opinion on the topic. I know many other members would be interested in knowing your opinion about that too, and it's particularly relevant for you because of EstroBan.
Here's an example but there are many others:

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/sulfur-deficiency/
"Upon exposure to the sun, the skin synthesizes vitamin D3 sulfate, a form of vitamin D that, unlike unsulfated vitamin D3, is water soluble. As a consequence, it can travel freely in the blood stream rather than encapsulated inside LDL (the so-called “bad” cholesterol) for transport.1 The form of vitamin D that is present in both human milk19 and raw cow’s milk2 is vitamin D3 sulfate (pasteurization destroys it in cow’s milk).
Cholesterol sulfate is also synthesized in the skin, where it forms a crucial part of the barrier that keeps out harmful bacteria and other microorganisms such as fungi.35 Cholesterol sulfate regulates the gene for a protein called profilaggrin, by interacting like a hormone with the nuclear receptor ROR-alpha. Profilaggrin is the precursor to filaggrin, which protects the skin from invasive organisms.31,24 A deficiency in filaggrin is associated with asthma and arthritis. Therefore, cholesterol sulfate plays an important role in protection from asthma and arthritis. This explains why sulfur is a healing agent.
Like vitamin D3 sulfate, cholesterol sulfate is also water-soluble, and it too, unlike cholesterol, does not have to be packaged up inside LDL for delivery to the tissues.
Here I pose the interesting question: where do vitamin D3 sulfate and cholesterol sulfate go once they are in the blood stream, and what role do they play in the cells? Surprisingly, as far as I can tell, nobody knows. It has been determined that the sulfated form of vitamin D3 is strikingly ineffective for calcium transport, the well-known “primary” role of vitamin D3.29 However, vitamin D3 clearly has many other positive effects (it seems that more and more are being discovered every day), and these include a role in cancer protection, increased immunity against infectious disease, and protection against heart disease. Researchers don’t yet understand how it achieves these benefits, which have been observed empirically but remain unexplained physiologically. However, I strongly suspect it is the sulfated form of the vitamin that instantiates these benefits, and my reasons for this belief will become clearer in a moment."​
Edit: forgot to add that there's a quack named Trevor Marshall that has some valid points when it comes to intracellular infections and long-term dangers of vit D supplements. I guess in some rare conditions it can be detrimental..?
Although that is pure speculation and most studies show the opposite, I wonder if you are aware of any downside of vit D supplements.
Also, do you know of any beneficial metabolites that are generated when sun rays strike the skin other than vit D itself that cannot be generated in other ways?
Since you mentioned somewhere that for all substances there's a trial and error phase that lasts about 20 years for real life experiments in a population, due to that I also wonder if it's too soon to consider D3 supplements safe.

It doesn't matter if you reply here or there, I'll quote you response there so others can read.
Wish you a great week!

haidut's reply:

The sulfated forms of steroids are typically used as a reservoir for synthesizing the original steroid when needed. Examples are DHEA-S, pregnenolone-S, D3-S, estrone-S, etc. Some of the sulfated steroids have steroid actions themselves. Pregenolone sulfate is a GABA antagonist and just like pregnenolone improves memory and mood. DHEA-S is capable of binding to the androgen "receptor" as a weak agonist but weaker than DHEA.
The clinical trials with isolated vitamin D all had U-shape curve findings. In low doses of <2,000 IU daily the effects were beneficial on bone health, heart function and memory/cognition. In higher doses taken long term almost all of the effects were null or negative. A recent human study with 4,000 IU daily on cognitive decline in the elderly found that the low dose of 800 IU improved both cognition and physical status while the 4,000 IU dose increased the wobbliness and the number of falls while having no positive effects on cognition. I think vitamin D3 certainly can have positive effects but I would never take it on its own. I would always combine with vitamin K at the very least, and if possible magnesium and zinc since they are required for the proper functioning of the proteins vitamin D and K stimulate. In my opinion, isolated long term supplementation with vitamin D in doses greater than 2,000 IU daily is at best uninformed and possible unwise considering all the evidence from human studies.​

Thank you as always!

@Suikerbuik @jyb @natedawggh
 

faramir

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Mar 1, 2016
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About a year ago I started experiencing terrible symptoms of worsening inflammation. My joints were painful, my cognition and physical coordination began to decline. Finally my eyes became very bloodshot(scary!). I din't know what was wrong and thought I might be having a relapse of a mild case of chikungunya that I had experienced earlier. By chance, I looked closely at my bottle of vitamin d and noticed it was 10,000mg! I know! It was crazy that I didn't notice it before but there it was. I was taking one daily, very faithfully for probably 4 or 5 months. I immediately began to research the signs of vitamin d toxicity and my symptoms matched. Of course, I stopped taking it immediately and the symptoms began to diminish and finally disappeared. After a few weeks I took a 1000mg dose just to check and the joint pain came back that day! Knowing that it's stored in the body, I've been hesitant to take anymore for now. I may retest taking 1000mg at a later time.

I have been applying Ray Peat's advice for about 6 years now. Included in my supplementation regime was taking 1000mg of Vitamin D3 daily, along with my vitamin e, aspirin and k.

I just wanted to share my experience as an anecdote, but I found some info that seems to back my experiences:

How A Vitamin D Test Misdiagnosed African-Americans

Here's a section from the article:
The 25-hydroxy form is tightly bound to a protein, and as a result, bone cells, immune cells and other tissues that need vitamin D can't take it up. It has to be converted by the kidneys into a form called 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D.

For Caucasians, blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D are a pretty good proxy for how much of the bioavailable vitamin they have. But not for blacks.


HEALTH
Medical Panel: Don't Go Overboard On Vitamin D

That's because blacks have only a quarter to a third as much of the binding protein, Thadhani says. So the blood test for the 25-hydroxy form is misleading. His study finds that because of those lower levels of the protein, blacks still have enough of the bioavailable vitamin, which explains why their bones look strong even though the usual blood tests say they shouldn't.

"The conclusion from this study is that just because your total levels are low, it doesn't mean we need to replace vitamin D" using supplements, Thadhani says. The study was published Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.
 

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