Vitamin D Is As Bad In Excess As It Is In Deficiency

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,608
Location
USA / Europe
The study said that vitamin D levels above 100nmol/L were associated with higher risk from CVD and stroke. I don't have access to the study so I don't know what the mortality was from in the low ranges. Presumably, the higher than optimal vitamin D levels probably caused arterial calcification, and the lower ones increased PTH. The study abstract says both calcium and PTH were factors influencing all-cause mortality. Since low calcium was also associated with mortality, I suspect this is due to kidney disease as it is the main cause of low serum calcium.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 105222.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22573406
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25710567

"...RESULTS: During follow-up (median, 3.07 yr), 15,198 (6.1%) subjects died. A reverse J-shaped association between serum level of 25(OH)D and mortality was observed. A serum 25(OH)D level of 50-60 nmol/liter was associated with the lowest mortality risk. Compared to 50 nmol/liter, the hazard ratios (95% confidence intervals) of all-cause mortality at very low (10 nmol/liter) and high (140 nmol/liter) serum levels of 25(OH)D were 2.13 (2.02-2.24) and 1.42 (1.31-1.53), respectively. Similarly, both high and low levels of albumin-adjusted serum calcium and serum PTH were associated with an increased mortality, and secondary hyperparathyroidism was associated with higher mortality (P < 0.0001)."
 

Sheila

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
374
I am so glad you posted this thank you. Many kidney patients are given Vitamin D routinely and it definitely makes some of them worse. My experience is they are better at 50- 55 nmol/L which according to levels here is 'adequate'. I am thinking that Vitamin A deficiency might be a rate defining step if Vitamin D upsets them but kidney disease is so complicated it's difficult to know. Some obvious improvements with thiamine though, even at low doses (100mg) and does not seem to throw out other markers. Dialysis must represent a huge shock to the system thrice weekly and the Bs must get very washed out each time. Thanks for this research.
Sheila
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,608
Location
USA / Europe
schultz said:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/10.1210/jc.2012-1176

Is this it?

Yes, thanks. I realized the study was freely available after I posted the thread.
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
32
Location
West Midlands, GB
Vitamin D has paradoxical reactions in me. Sometimes, it can make me really fatigued. Other times, it can really boost my mood.

In recent years, as summer approaches, my health gets worse.

In oral form, I don't get on well with it in any event.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,608
Location
USA / Europe

paymanz

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
2,690
agree ,too much vitamin d is even worst than low vit d.especially with low vitamin A and K status.once i reached 111ng/dl , that was baddest experience in my health.
 

YuraCZ

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
674
paymanz said:
agree ,too much vitamin d is even worst than low vit d.especially with low vitamin A and K status.once i reached 111ng/dl , that was baddest experience in my health.
and what happened?
 

BingDing

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
976
Location
Tennessee, USA
There is some discussion of the second study at this Vitamin D council page. High Cod liver oil and high latitude might be part of the result.

Mittir cited that page and some others at the end of this thread.
 

paymanz

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
2,690
YuraCZ said:
paymanz said:
agree ,too much vitamin d is even worst than low vit d.especially with low vitamin A and K status.once i reached 111ng/dl , that was baddest experience in my health.
and what happened?
poor memory,headaches , low energy ,mental confusion, my body felt dry.i couldnt focus well , excess calcification in my chest bones,weight loss , and lasted for months or maybe more to become better.will never go more than 2000-3000 iu vid/day unless test my blood regulary. i dont think more than 4 ng/dl is good.
 
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
30
Wow mine was at 128.8 nmol/L, and yet my parathyroid values were at 24 ng/L. At least I have been taking it with Vit K2. Does anyone know how long it would take to lower this to acceptable values. Also what is the half life of D3?
 

sladerunner69

Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
3,235
Age
28
Location
Los Angeles
I've read it is so difficult to over supplement vitmin d that one could take 10k iu's daily and not be concerned.... the normal count should be around 50k iu and much of it is excreted through the urine. :ninja
 

paymanz

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
2,690
sladerunner69 said:
post 118228 I've read it is so difficult to over supplement vitmin d that one could take 10k iu's daily and not be concerned.... the normal count should be around 50k iu and much of it is excreted through the urine. :ninja
not that easy...half life is up to 25-30 days
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
8,510
I've taken 50K units per day for weeks sometimes, and my levels o the lab show at around 72 ng/mL

I take it with K2 and A and some E also...but even so, it's hard to bump up levels for me. Not sure why but I'm satisfied at this level and only take it occasionally. I'm using the LLLT and I think that should really help ameliorate the need for extra D3
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
7,875
Location
Not Uganda
haidut, are you aware of any downside of D3 in supplemental form?
I've read somethings about the sulfated form derived from sun and other possible metabolites generated in the process being safer and more beneficial, and also diffusing better throughout the body by not requiring lipoproteins for transport.

I wonder if you have any opinion on that, regardless of having ideal circulating levels in the blood..
 

Mr Rossi

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
106
My experience with Vitamin D are very bad.
I took high doses for several months. Between 20.000IU - 60.000IU daily and drank a lot of milk.

I tested 3 times.
At the beginning my Vit D level was about 40ng/ml.
After 2 months it was about 125ng/ml.
After 3 months it was about 170ng/ml.

I took only Vit D without Vitamin K and A.
My alternative practitioner said it would be no problem for several months to take Vitamin D only. Afterwards he wasn't right.

I got very bad mood and was almost always excitable.
I got a mild depression with anxiety and my erectile dysfunction was at its worst. Libido no longer existent.
I was very sick, my energy was also bad and I was frequently unable to work.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,352
I took high doses for several months. Between 20.000IU - 60.000IU daily and drank a lot of milk.
Thanks for reporting effects. That's very high dosing you were taking.
Just out of curiousity, in case you happened to measure this, did you happen to notice what your UpH was before, during and after this period of supplementation?
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
7,875
Location
Not Uganda
Hello haidut,
I don't know if you read it, but I left a question for you on this thread, it would be nice if you could give your opinion on the topic. I know many other members would be interested in knowing your opinion about that too, and it's particularly relevant for you because of EstroBan.
Here's an example but there are many others:

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/sulfur-deficiency/
"Upon exposure to the sun, the skin synthesizes vitamin D3 sulfate, a form of vitamin D that, unlike unsulfated vitamin D3, is water soluble. As a consequence, it can travel freely in the blood stream rather than encapsulated inside LDL (the so-called “bad” cholesterol) for transport.1 The form of vitamin D that is present in both human milk19 and raw cow’s milk2 is vitamin D3 sulfate (pasteurization destroys it in cow’s milk).
Cholesterol sulfate is also synthesized in the skin, where it forms a crucial part of the barrier that keeps out harmful bacteria and other microorganisms such as fungi.35 Cholesterol sulfate regulates the gene for a protein called profilaggrin, by interacting like a hormone with the nuclear receptor ROR-alpha. Profilaggrin is the precursor to filaggrin, which protects the skin from invasive organisms.31,24 A deficiency in filaggrin is associated with asthma and arthritis. Therefore, cholesterol sulfate plays an important role in protection from asthma and arthritis. This explains why sulfur is a healing agent.
Like vitamin D3 sulfate, cholesterol sulfate is also water-soluble, and it too, unlike cholesterol, does not have to be packaged up inside LDL for delivery to the tissues.
Here I pose the interesting question: where do vitamin D3 sulfate and cholesterol sulfate go once they are in the blood stream, and what role do they play in the cells? Surprisingly, as far as I can tell, nobody knows. It has been determined that the sulfated form of vitamin D3 is strikingly ineffective for calcium transport, the well-known “primary” role of vitamin D3.29 However, vitamin D3 clearly has many other positive effects (it seems that more and more are being discovered every day), and these include a role in cancer protection, increased immunity against infectious disease, and protection against heart disease. Researchers don’t yet understand how it achieves these benefits, which have been observed empirically but remain unexplained physiologically. However, I strongly suspect it is the sulfated form of the vitamin that instantiates these benefits, and my reasons for this belief will become clearer in a moment."​
Edit: forgot to add that there's a quack named Trevor Marshall that has some valid points when it comes to intracellular infections and long-term dangers of vit D supplements. I guess in some rare conditions it can be detrimental..?
Although that is pure speculation and most studies show the opposite, I wonder if you are aware of any downside of vit D supplements.
Also, do you know of any beneficial metabolites that are generated when sun rays strike the skin other than vit D itself that cannot be generated in other ways?
Since you mentioned somewhere that for all substances there's a trial and error phase that lasts about 20 years for real life experiments in a population, due to that I also wonder if it's too soon to consider D3 supplements safe.

It doesn't matter if you reply here or there, I'll quote you response there so others can read.
Wish you a great week!

haidut's reply:

The sulfated forms of steroids are typically used as a reservoir for synthesizing the original steroid when needed. Examples are DHEA-S, pregnenolone-S, D3-S, estrone-S, etc. Some of the sulfated steroids have steroid actions themselves. Pregenolone sulfate is a GABA antagonist and just like pregnenolone improves memory and mood. DHEA-S is capable of binding to the androgen "receptor" as a weak agonist but weaker than DHEA.
The clinical trials with isolated vitamin D all had U-shape curve findings. In low doses of <2,000 IU daily the effects were beneficial on bone health, heart function and memory/cognition. In higher doses taken long term almost all of the effects were null or negative. A recent human study with 4,000 IU daily on cognitive decline in the elderly found that the low dose of 800 IU improved both cognition and physical status while the 4,000 IU dose increased the wobbliness and the number of falls while having no positive effects on cognition. I think vitamin D3 certainly can have positive effects but I would never take it on its own. I would always combine with vitamin K at the very least, and if possible magnesium and zinc since they are required for the proper functioning of the proteins vitamin D and K stimulate. In my opinion, isolated long term supplementation with vitamin D in doses greater than 2,000 IU daily is at best uninformed and possible unwise considering all the evidence from human studies.​

Thank you as always!

@Suikerbuik @jyb @natedawggh
 

faramir

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
13
About a year ago I started experiencing terrible symptoms of worsening inflammation. My joints were painful, my cognition and physical coordination began to decline. Finally my eyes became very bloodshot(scary!). I din't know what was wrong and thought I might be having a relapse of a mild case of chikungunya that I had experienced earlier. By chance, I looked closely at my bottle of vitamin d and noticed it was 10,000mg! I know! It was crazy that I didn't notice it before but there it was. I was taking one daily, very faithfully for probably 4 or 5 months. I immediately began to research the signs of vitamin d toxicity and my symptoms matched. Of course, I stopped taking it immediately and the symptoms began to diminish and finally disappeared. After a few weeks I took a 1000mg dose just to check and the joint pain came back that day! Knowing that it's stored in the body, I've been hesitant to take anymore for now. I may retest taking 1000mg at a later time.

I have been applying Ray Peat's advice for about 6 years now. Included in my supplementation regime was taking 1000mg of Vitamin D3 daily, along with my vitamin e, aspirin and k.

I just wanted to share my experience as an anecdote, but I found some info that seems to back my experiences:

How A Vitamin D Test Misdiagnosed African-Americans

Here's a section from the article:
The 25-hydroxy form is tightly bound to a protein, and as a result, bone cells, immune cells and other tissues that need vitamin D can't take it up. It has to be converted by the kidneys into a form called 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D.

For Caucasians, blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D are a pretty good proxy for how much of the bioavailable vitamin they have. But not for blacks.


HEALTH
Medical Panel: Don't Go Overboard On Vitamin D

That's because blacks have only a quarter to a third as much of the binding protein, Thadhani says. So the blood test for the 25-hydroxy form is misleading. His study finds that because of those lower levels of the protein, blacks still have enough of the bioavailable vitamin, which explains why their bones look strong even though the usual blood tests say they shouldn't.

"The conclusion from this study is that just because your total levels are low, it doesn't mean we need to replace vitamin D" using supplements, Thadhani says. The study was published Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
C High Calcium Intake + Vitamin D Is Bad Combo? D 67
wild-bee What Does A Bad Reaction To Vitamin E Feel Like? E 6
R Bad/Great Reaction To Progesterone-Vitamin E Ask For Help or Advice 23
mayweatherking Is This A Bad Vitamin D, K2, And A Ratio? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 34
Mr Rossi Vitamin D - Irritable And Very Bad Mood D 9
S Vitamin C Fine With Zinc; Bad With Copper (or Iron) Macros & Micros 1
Z Bad Experience - Vitamin A / Pregnenolone Experiment Testimonials 10
D Podcast with Jim Stephenson Jr. on vitamin/hormone D Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 1
T Experiences with Jarrow Formulas vitamin D3 2500 IU? Ask For Help or Advice 0
GorillaHead Vitamin B5 supplementation may cause adrenal over activity? Ask For Help or Advice 1
Doludolu Very LOW Iron , Sufficient Ferritin, Excesivelly high vitamin B12 - Anemia or what is going on? Blood Work, Labs 6
T Now Foods Vitamin E 400 mixed tocopherols experiences and reviews Ask For Help or Advice 2
T Will Thorne research liquid vitamin K2 absorb through the skin? Ask For Help or Advice 8
bzmazu More vitamin K2, more testosterone K 0
ddjd High vitamin D levels essential for tolerating T3?? Ask For Help or Advice 0
L Best vitamin c for a child? Ask For Help or Advice 6
Mito The Great Vitamin D Debate with Georgi Dinkov, Danny Roddy, Kate Deering & Matt Blackburn D 40
M Does a lot of copper increase the need of vitamin C? Ask For Help or Advice 10
Mauritio Vitamin B1 / Thiamine deficiency increases serotonin in the brain Scientific Studies 24
P Study: Vitamin A theory of vaccine injury Scientific Studies 26
haidut Vitamin D can force cancer cells to differentiate back into normal Scientific Studies 1
haidut Oral testosterone + vitamin E may treat NAFLD, NASH, cirrhosis in humans Scientific Studies 6
haidut Glucose + vitamin B3 combo synergistic for treating mitochondrial disease Scientific Studies 1
haidut Nine out of ten COVID-19 deaths may be due to vitamin D deficiency Scientific Studies 22
S Vitamin E overuse? Ask For Help or Advice 9
K Why does vitamin K2 mk4 make my skin dry? K 4
B Tissue concentrations of Menaquinone-4 (Vitamin K2 MK-4) Scientific Studies 0
youngsinatra Can High Vitamin D Compensate Lower Dietary Calcium? Ask For Help or Advice 4
A Does vitamin K supplementation deplete vitamin E? Vitamins 25
youngsinatra Vitamin D - Don‘t Guess, But Test! Ask For Help or Advice 30
cjm "Vitamin E inhibits the activation of NF‐kB, with the greatest inhibition seen with the succinate form." Scientific Studies 2
Pina Kale Water Vitamin K Content Diet 1
youngsinatra Post Your Experience With Topical Vitamin A Here Metabolism 18
M Do vitamin A supplements deplete vitamin A? Ask For Help or Advice 5
Jon2547 Koncentrated K brand of Vitamin K Vitamins 12
M B-Complex or Bee Pollen supplement? Vitamin A supplement or Cod liver oil? Ask For Help or Advice 3
M Best Vitamin A and Copper supplements? Ask For Help or Advice 38
P High dose vitamin k2 around 45mg makes vericocele vanish Male Issues 7
M Does cooking vegetables destroy their vitamin C? Ask For Help or Advice 11
Ras Vitamin C neutralizes chlorine in water C 1
Quelsatron A very confusing month? (vitamin D, magnesium, liver) Ask For Help or Advice 33
Mauritio Vitamin E succinate decreases melanoma size by 650% in vivo Scientific Studies 44
charlie Vitamin B1 in critically ill patients: needs and challenges Scientific Studies 53
C Vitamin D, daily low dose or infrequent high dose? Vitamins 11
G How relevant are serum vitamin tests? Vitamins 11
D Vitamin D Always High! Blood Work, Labs 13
Q Is Vitamin D induced serotonin syndrome possible? Please hear me out... Ask For Help or Advice 60
T VItamin D Megadose accident, what to do Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 6
N Home made vitamin D... Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 1
bzmazu Why politicians and doctors keep ignoring the medical research on Vitamin D and Covid Rant or Rave 2

Similar threads

Top