Idea Labs Hair Test for Androgens

[Risingfire]

I think he's more so calling BS on the fact that prog + DHEA could replace test for a BBer. I agree with that. Steroids are much more than just anti-catabolic. They tried creating mainly anti-catabolic steroids in the past which wasn't a big success. Carl Lenore talked about it before a couple of times (I don't have references for it though).

I believe @haidut said it replaced his TRT. It was similar to that. He wasn't talking about anavar or tren

 

[Hans]

I believe @haidut said it replaced his TRT. It was similar to that. He wasn't talking about anavar or tren

BBer are usually on very large doses of T if they're competing. Maybe if he was retired and on TRT as you say, then yes, that makes more sense. I got the impression that using prog + DHEA was as anabolic as high dose T for a competitive BBer.

 

[DennisX]

You call "BS" on what exactly? There are several statements in my post. Is it about the progesterone/DHEA having T-like effects? I never claimed this combo raises T. All I said is that I know a competitive bodybuilder who uses that combo, in the 10:1 ratio, and for him it produces the same "anabolic" effects as his T injections, which is reasonable as the "anabolic" effects of T (and other "anabolic" steroids too) are mostly actually anticatabolic through blocking cortisol. Progesterone and DHEA are also very good cortisol blockers, hence the name CortiNon in our product with them.

Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

This post will be a bit long, but I hope it is worth it. I think @Jsaute21 and @dand will find it highly interesting but the information here applies just as much to females wishing to preserve lean tissue and prevent the catabolism that often occurs with aging. Here we go. Lately, I have been...

raypeatforum.com

I don't remember claiming anywhere that the 10:1 combo will actually raise T. However, considering the steroid results in nail, and the fact that the OP has not used any other steroids precursors to T, his progesterone/DHEA usage is more or less the only explanation. Another (very unlikely) one is the high androsterone/epiandrosterone doses he used acted as an aromatase inhibitor and this led to the high T. That is unlikely as both androsterone and epiandrosterone are suppressive in high doses and would have effects similar to DHT, with the latter known to lower T levels. The fact his DHT is also very high pretty much rules out the option of aromatase inhibition raising his T levels. So, the progesterone/DHEA usage remains the only reasonable explanation...unless he has somehow unwittingly used T - i.e. some steroid products are tainted in order to increase effects and convince people the steroids on the label are actually working.

MY point is that without Testosterone, estradiol, DHEA DHT labs It's all anecdotal and theory. Yes you are correct about the biological pathways etc. BUT WRT to those of us that workout with weights to gain muscle strength and use exogenous Testosterone we are used to taking labs to show where we are. Unfortunately we only have feel good testimony in this thread not labs. So as the saying goes, what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

 

[DennisX]

I think I'm living proof. Look at my tests. It's absolutely the case. Instead of calling bs, why don't you try it yourself? Or are you just a shill?

Please give me the URL to yourtestosterone, dhea, dht, estradiol labs any the amount of time you used the prog/dhea 10:1 before you took the labs. Do you workout with weights?

 

[Risingfire]

Please give me the URL to yourtestosterone, dhea, dht, estradiol labs any the amount of time you used the prog/dhea 10:1 before you took the labs. Do you workout with weights?

Scroll back

 

[Risingfire]

BBer are usually on very large doses of T if they're competing. Maybe if he was retired and on TRT as you say, then yes, that makes more sense. I got the impression that using prog + DHEA was as anabolic as high dose T for a competitive BBer.

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

Ok so 75 mgs daily isn't replacement. But 150;15 ratio daily is probably much safer and easier on the body than T injections

 

[DennisX]

Scroll back

Not to belabor this point to death, but you took many different chems not just prog/dhea . Your prog/preg/dhea was 3:1. The whole point of this discussion is what were your labs and the BBs labs with only prog/dhea 10:1. Many thread follows have asked this question for the purpose of eliminating T shots but the answer and labs are not forthcoming.

 

[Hans]

But 150;15 ratio daily is probably much safer and easier on the body than T injections

Honestly, I don't think so and I actually think that prog can have more sides in a male than TRT. The only downside of TRT is uncontrolled E and not actually addressing the root cause. Prog is a big hit or miss for men, especially at that dose.

 

[Risingfire]

Honestly, I don't think so and I actually think that prog can have more sides in a male than TRT. The only downside of TRT is uncontrolled E and not actually addressing the root cause. Prog is a big hit or miss for men, especially at that dose.

Have you taken it with dhea? I've never had any sides with that

 

[Risingfire]

Not to belabor this point to death, but you took many different chems not just prog/dhea . Your prog/preg/dhea was 3:1. The whole point of this discussion is what were your labs and the BBs labs with only prog/dhea 10:1. Many thread follows have asked this question for the purpose of eliminating T shots but the answer and labs are not forthcoming.

Your point was testosterone. Androsterone and DHT do not convert to testosterone. Labs are on the first page. 3:1 should convert more to test as opposed to 10:1

 

[Hans]

Have you taken it with dhea? I've never had any sides with that

I've only taken very small amounts very infrequently, but I've talked to many men who reported all kinds of negatives. There are many such negatives on the forum as well. I'm not against men using prog, but compared to TRT, I'd prefer TRT any day, due to benefits, lack of sides, etc.

 

[tastyfood]

Btw, we found a reference range for androsterone and it is 0.33 - 20.2 pg/mg

Is this for hair? The results sheet still doesn't have a range listed for androsterone. Any plans to include this newly found range in the results? Thank you!

 

[Vileplume]

1.5 grains of thyroid(Cynoplus) daily split up

200 mgs Androsterone & 200 mgs Epiandrosterone(Steel supplements) for 6 six weeks

Keto DHT 2-4 mgs when I wasn't taking Andro

10 mgs Preg, 5 mgs Dhea, 5 mgs Prog

Hey Risingfire, how is it going with this dose of thyroid? Has it successfully raised your temperature?

 

[Risingfire]

Hey Risingfire, how is it going with this dose of thyroid? Has it successfully raised your temperature?

It's been going decent as I've been on thyroid for a few years. I was waking up around 94.5-96 before desiccated thyroid/cynoplus. I generally wake up around 97.1 - 97.4. I'm still aiming for 97.8 but it doesn't seem to happen unless I take an anti-serotonin agent. Otherwise, I'm generally above 98 by mid morning.

I've been consuming more liver in hopes of getting the waking temp close to 98. I've tried pregnenolone and dhea but that doesn't seem to work.

I still have adrenaline like symptoms at night which is a sign of hypothyroidism.

 

[Vileplume]

It's been going decent as I've been on thyroid for a few years. I was waking up around 94.5-96 before desiccated thyroid/cynoplus. I generally wake up around 97.1 - 97.4. I'm still aiming for 97.8 but it doesn't seem to happen unless I take an anti-serotonin agent. Otherwise, I'm generally above 98 by mid morning.

I've been consuming more liver in hopes of getting the waking temp close to 98. I've tried pregnenolone and dhea but that doesn't seem to work.

I still have adrenaline like symptoms at night which is a sign of hypothyroidism.

Thanks, that sounds like good improvement. I’m actually in a similar spot, also taking cynoplus and getting my temp up to low 98’s during the day. Still want a bit higher, but I’m reluctant to increase cynoplus further.

When you say 1.5 grains, do you mean 3/4 of a cynoplus?

 

[Risingfire]

Thanks, that sounds like good improvement. I’m actually in a similar spot, also taking cynoplus and getting my temp up to low 98’s during the day. Still want a bit higher, but I’m reluctant to increase cynoplus further.

When you say 1.5 grains, do you mean 3/4 of a cynoplus?

Really depends on what your definition of a grain is. It would be more in line with later Peat recommendations. So half a tablet of cynoplus. I've taken a full tablet in the past and it seems to increase more adrenaline symptoms. I'm currently counting calories to lose weight so I really can't use more than half

 

[Vileplume]

Really depends on what your definition of a grain is. It would be more in line with later Peat recommendations. So half a tablet of cynoplus. I've taken a full tablet in the past and it seems to increase more adrenaline symptoms. I'm currently counting calories to lose weight so I really can't use more than half

Cool, I appreciate the replies. It’s nice to have other long-term cynoplus users to check in with.

 

[Risingfire]

Cool, I appreciate the replies. It’s nice to have other long-term cynoplus users to check in with.

What improvements have you seen on cyno?

 

[Vileplume]

What improvements have you seen on cyno?

It's hard to say for sure because I made some positive dietary changes right when I started adding the cynoplus, such as dropping most meat and fruit and instead drinking lots of whole goat milk, but my temperature has increased during the last 1.5 years that I've been taking cynoplus.

I've been taking 3/4 of a tablet on average during that time, and my temperature has increased from the mid 97's to the low 98's - so it's jumped like half a degree. Again though, it's hard to say how much of this is from thyroid and how much is from diet. My digestion is still not the best, since my tongue is often coated, so I want to fix that before tinkering more with thyroid dose. I think for now I'll keep it steady at 3/4 of a cynoplus tablet.

 

[Risingfire]

It's hard to say for sure because I made some positive dietary changes right when I started adding the cynoplus, such as dropping most meat and fruit and instead drinking lots of whole goat milk, but my temperature has increased during the last 1.5 years that I've been taking cynoplus.

I've been taking 3/4 of a tablet on average during that time, and my temperature has increased from the mid 97's to the low 98's - so it's jumped like half a degree. Again though, it's hard to say how much of this is from thyroid and how much is from diet. My digestion is still not the best, since my tongue is often coated, so I want to fix that before tinkering more with thyroid dose. I think for now I'll keep it steady at 3/4 of a cynoplus tablet.

A daily carrot and occasional camphosal really helped clean up the coating on my tongue. Why did you give up fruit?