Hair Loss: Scalp Massage, Aspirin And Prostaglandins

[Soren]

I have done the full 10 months, 20mins in morning and 20mins in evening scalp massage. No change to shedding amounts, regrowth, or slowing shedding for me. Hair continues to shed.

My metabolism is not in the best spot, so that could be a factor. But also you would think by now there would be posts all over the internet with good photos documenting this approach as working, it could help but 90% regrowth, not so sure about that.

Hi Orion, sorry to hear that you didn't get any results. Did you do the scalp massage as outlined in the study, pinching and kneading etc?

I think your right that if your metabolism is not spot on it will be very difficult to regrow hair.

I am also very sceptical of the 90% claim, it seems way too good to be true, but I'm willing to try anything.

In the words of William Blake, "The true method of knowledge is experiment".

 

[Soren]

I think you're right. Momentum works both ways. When you're sick, it takes time to recover. But when your body is optimal, it's amazing what one can withstand. Aging is still a thing, unfortunately.

Definitely agree there. When I was sick (chronic stress) everything seemed like a downward spiral of bad health. Taken me a long to recover, largely because I didn't start my recovery with full knowledge of what was necessary and made many mistakes along the way. Now though that I finally feel better a lot of things have become easier.

 

[snowboard111]

I cannot fathom why anybody would say/think hypoxia would be good for any tissue... it doesn't make any sense.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

@Soren Nice! I too use a laser helmet from OMG. I am curious about the handheld device you posted. I will do more research. As far as my journey, it really is very similar to yours,

I became interested in health and nutrition in high school, and began distance running on a high PUFA, high grain diet. Began limiting sugar intake early on. As I got older I discovered more research based nutrition information, and started following Tim Ferriss' "slow carb diet" high in beans and PUFA. Hair loss began around this time more or less 5 years ago.

Then moved on to an ultra low-carb ketogenic "Bulletproof" diet, eating tons of saturated fat and keeping carbs below 30g/day. I was also still cooking in PUFA oils like grapeseed and avocado oil because of their "high flash point". Also eating terribly and drinking a lot on the weekends. Hair loss got remarkably worse in a short period of time.

I was pretty much ready to give up and shave my head bald as someone on the Bulletproof Forum suggested when I saw a mention of Danny's book and Dr. Peat's work. They were all laughing about what a quack Dr. Peat is for recommending consumption of milk, OJ, and sugar. I saw Danny's book was 99 cents on Amazon, so I read the entire thing in about 2 hours. Then I read it again.

I was stunned at the data he was presenting. I searched his name and found this thread from 2012 on Mark Sisson's Paleo Forum.

Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen? - Page 5 | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum <!--VBSEO_RR_1-->

The thread was obviously going to be a hit-piece on Danny's work, so I wanted to read the criticisms. Comically, it appeared that Danny had showed up in the thread and was defending his ideas from the fervent attacks. I read the entire thing (80 pages ) over the course of a few hours and realized that no one was able to counter his arguments with anything but speculation.

That led me down the rabbit hole of Dr. Peat's articles, which have truly elucidated the mechanisms by which I had been damaging my metabolism my entire life. Now I am in pursuit of the next step in the journey -- Healing.

 

[Soren]

I cannot fathom why anybody would say/think hypoxia would be good for any tissue... it doesn't make any sense. Unless people think hypoxia -> lactic acid is a good source of energy which as Haidut pointed out, it might be good in case of emergency but not in the long time.

Any cells of the body will prefer to burn glucose. Hair follicle are made of cells (duhh ) Danny Roddy pointed out how the energy requirement oh hair follicle to grow was quite high so I would guess that anything that interfere with it will have an impact...

I know its totally insane. I think it was l'oreal and vichey both have a product that they market as causing hypoxia in the scalp to promote hair growth.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

I think some people on this forum have tried MB on the scalp and they said they did not see any results. Others might have though and I might have missed it.

Just saw your previous answer about how MB to test for hypoxia not for hair regrowth. That is interesting because there is some research and a few products that claim hypoxia is good for hair growth. I think mild hypoxia of the scalp might cause some hair growth short term but long term cause hair loss.

I believe this is the mechanism by which Rogaine (Minoxidil) works. It increases NO, which causes vasodilation, which helps in the short term. In the long term, it is probably degenerative because the tissue will become deficient in CO2. This might be why some folks experience aggressive loss after stopping Minoxidil.

@snowboard111 I did hear Haidut talking about testing for hypoxia with MB, but oddly, the MB stayed on my scalp for well over a day even on the spots without hair (which I expected would be hypoxic). I gave up on it because I'm far too vain to run around with a blue scalp.

 

[Soren]

@Soren Nice! I too use a laser helmet from OMG. I am curious about the handheld device you posted. I will do more research. As far as my journey, it really is very similar to yours,

I became interested in health and nutrition in high school, and began distance running on a high PUFA, high grain diet. Began limiting sugar intake early on. As I got older I discovered more research based nutrition information, and started following Tim Ferriss' "slow carb diet" high in beans and PUFA. Hair loss began around this time more or less 5 years ago.

Then moved on to an ultra low-carb ketogenic "Bulletproof" diet, eating tons of saturated fat and keeping carbs below 30g/day. I was also still cooking in PUFA oils like grapeseed and avocado oil because of their "high flash point". Also eating terribly and drinking a lot on the weekends. Hair loss got remarkably worse in a short period of time.

I was pretty much ready to give up and shave my head bald as someone on the Bulletproof Forum suggested when I saw a mention of Danny's book and Dr. Peat's work. They were all laughing about what a quack Dr. Peat is for recommending consumption of milk, OJ, and sugar. I saw Danny's book was 99 cents on Amazon, so I read the entire thing in about 2 hours. Then I read it again.

I was stunned at the data he was presenting. I searched his name and found this thread from 2012 on Mark Sisson's Paleo Forum.

Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen? - Page 5 | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum <!--VBSEO_RR_1-->

The thread was obviously going to be a hit-piece on Danny's work, so I wanted to read the criticisms. Comically, it appeared that Danny had showed up in the thread and was defending his ideas from the fervent attacks. I read the entire thing (80 pages ) over the course of a few hours and realized that no one was able to counter his arguments with anything but speculation.

That led me down the rabbit hole of Dr. Peat's articles, which have truly elucidated the mechanisms by which I had been damaging my metabolism my entire life. Now I am in pursuit of the next step in the journey -- Healing.

Thanks for sharing Pete, this is SOOO similar to my own journey. I think I even discovered danny roddy via the same thread!! I was very athletic and active in my late teens and early 20s. I ate pretty much anything I wanted and as much as I wanted as long as it was "healthy". By accident this meant avoiding PUFAs and actually involved a lot of sugar and protein. As a result I felt great and was in great shape pretty much effortlessly.

Unfortunately at some point I decided that I needed to 'perfect' my healthy eating and lifestyle. This led to a gradual restriction of sugars and carbohydrates, more and more exercise, fish oil, intermittent fasting, 24 hour fasting 48 hour fasting, cheat days, lots of fat, over supplementation with ineffective/dangerous supplements and, insomnia.

Of course I had the usual euphoric period as my bodies stress hormones went sky high. I felt energetic, was losing weight, got to eat massive meals in one sitting because of my fasting. I had discovered health and dieting nirvana!

Then, one day I woke up (after barely getting any sleep because I was so wired from fasting), looked in the mirror and realized all was not right. I had bags and dark circles under my eyes, I had put on weight despite constantly restricting calories and constantly exercising, my pulse was low, my hands and feet were cold all the time and my hair which had once been thick and brown had become fair, straw like and had started to recede. I was so confused, I was doing everything 'right', how come I was so unwell. Ray Peat, Danny Roddy, Haidut and the people on this forum have saved me from that hell.

 

[Orion]

Hi Orion, sorry to hear that you didn't get any results. Did you do the scalp massage as outlined in the study, pinching and kneading etc?

I think your right that if your metabolism is not spot on it will be very difficult to regrow hair.

I am also very sceptical of the 90% claim, it seems way too good to be true, but I'm willing to try anything.

In the word of William Blake, "The true method of knowledge is experiment".

Yes definitely try it. I followed the study paper, read the jdmoyer blogpost, and also bought the ebook from the guy that said it worked for him as well (I think he no longer sells it though, he couldn't keep up with the questions generated).

I'm currently trying larger vitamin A doses for acne(which should help move calcium out), and solban on the scalp.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

It's odd how great you can feel while fasting. It gives you the illusion that you're doing something right because of the ease of weight loss and the seemingly boundless energy the stress hormones provide. The fasting gurus will tell you this is 'autophagy' taking place.

It's odd how we synonymize weight loss with what's healthy. Weight is a fairly arbitrary thing to look at when determining whether an individual is healthy or not, but we assume that someone with sub 10% bodyfat is doing something we should all strive for.

I suppose we can thank Madison Ave.

 

[Soren]

Yes definitely try it. I followed the study paper, read the jdmoyer blogpost, and also bought the ebook from the guy that said it worked for him as well (I think he no longer sells it though, he couldn't keep up with the questions generated).

I'm currently trying larger vitamin A doses for acne(which should help move calcium out), and solban on the scalp.

Cool I am also supplementing with large vitamin A doses. How many IUs are you taking? I am taking 50,000 per day and just started with Solban on my scalp.

What did you think of the book compared to the jdmoyer blogpost? Is there anything important that you think the jdmoyer overlooks?

 

[Orion]

Thanks for sharing Pete, this is SOOO similar to my own journey. I think I even discovered danny roddy via the same thread!! I was very athletic and active in my late teens and early 20s. I ate pretty much anything I wanted and as much as I wanted as long as it was "healthy". By accident this meant avoiding PUFAs and actually involved a lot of sugar and protein. As a result I felt great and was in great shape pretty much effortlessly.

Unfortunately at some point I decided that I needed to 'perfect' my healthy eating and lifestyle. This led to a gradual restriction of sugars and carbohydrates, more and more exercise, fish oil, intermittent fasting, 24 hour fasting 48 hour fasting, cheat days, lots of fat, over supplementation with ineffective/dangerous supplements and, insomnia.

Of course I had the usual euphoric period as my bodies stress hormones went sky high. I felt energetic, was losing weight, got to eat massive meals in one sitting because of my fasting. I had discovered health and dieting nirvana!

Then, one day I woke up (after barely getting any sleep because I was so wired from fasting), looked in the mirror and realized all was not right. I had bags and dark circles under my eyes, I had put on weight despite constantly restricting calories and constantly exercising, my pulse was low, my hands and feet were cold all the time and my hair which had once been thick and brown had become fair, straw like and had started to recede. I was so confused, I was doing everything 'right', how come I was so unwell. Ray Peat, Danny Roddy, Haidut and the people on this forum have saved me from that hell.

Ditto for me, did the 24hr fasting, super high sat fat, low-carb, zero-carb, HIIT training combined with heavy 5x5 lifting. Tried this for a year circa 2010 and it destroyed me; worsened acne, brittle shedding hair, allopecia in my beard, grey hair, major sleep issues, pretty much got skinny fat, joint issues, terrible mood, dark circle baggy eyes, dandruff....

Its now 6yrs later, and finally almost 100% out of this hole I dug. Last major issue is stopping shedding/greying/dandruff, so all related to my scalp. Acne was a big one too, but vitamin A is finally mending that.

 

[Soren]

It's odd how great you can feel while fasting. It gives you the illusion that you're doing something right because of the ease of weight loss and the seemingly boundless energy the stress hormones provide. The fasting gurus will tell you this is 'autophagy' taking place.

It's odd how we synonymize weight loss with what's healthy. Weight is a fairly arbitrary thing to look at when determining whether an individual is healthy or not, but we assume that someone with sub 10% bodyfat is doing something we should all strive for.

I suppose we can thank Madison Ave.

This is part of the reason why I think restrictive eating and fasting just won't ever die. You feel SOO great while fasting because the bodies stress hormones are so powerful, after all they are designed to keep us from dying during periods of starvation! When people feel so good from something it is difficult to convince them that it is the opposite.

 

[Orion]

Cool I am also supplementing with large vitamin A doses. How many IUs are you taking? I am taking 50,000 per day and just started with Solban on my scalp.

What did you think of the book compared to the jdmoyer blogpost? Is there anything important that you think the jdmoyer overlooks?

I'm doing between 150K IU to 200K IU per day for almost 2 months now. I just started solban this week, noticed that before bed can keep me in restless sleep, so doing 4-5 sprays on scalp in morning.

The ebook guy was the person who suggested that jdmoyer try it, so the advice is the same. 20mins twice per day, pinching kneading very roughly (red scalp, force sebum and flakes free).

 

[Soren]

Ditto for me, did the 24hr fasting, super high sat fat, low-carb, zero-carb, HIIT training combined with heavy 5x5 lifting. Tried this for a year circa 2010 and it destroyed me; worsened acne, brittle shedding hair, allopecia in my beard, grey hair, major sleep issues, pretty much got skinny fat, joint issues, terrible mood, dark circle baggy eyes, dandruff....

Its now 6yrs later, and finally almost 100% out of this hole I dug. Last major issue is stopping shedding/greying/dandruff, so all related to my scalp. Acne was a big one too, but vitamin A is finally mending that.

Yea i'm about three years into my recovery from everything. Acne has finally been more or less taken care of with vitamin a and adequate sun exposure, still can't seem to take care of dandruff and hair loss though. I stopped washing my hair about three months ago and that has greatly improved the condition of my hair and scalp.

 

[Orion]

Yea i'm about three years into my recovery from everything. Acne has finally been more or less taken care of with vitamin a and adequate sun exposure, still can't seem to take care of dandruff and hair loss though. I stopped washing my hair about three months ago and that has greatly improved the condition of my hair and scalp.

 

[Soren]

I'm doing between 150K IU to 200K IU per day for almost 2 months now. I just started solban this week, noticed that before bed can keep me in restless sleep, so doing 4-5 sprays on scalp in morning.

The ebook guy was the person who suggested that jdmoyer try it, so the advice is the same. 20mins twice per day, pinching kneading very roughly (red scalp, force sebum and flakes free).

I was on a similar level of vitamin A for awhile but I have backed it off to 50,000 a day since coming off of Thyroid as I don't think my body can handle that much while not taking NDT without suppressing my thyroid.

 

[Orion]

Yea i'm about three years into my recovery from everything. Acne has finally been more or less taken care of with vitamin a and adequate sun exposure, still can't seem to take care of dandruff and hair loss though. I stopped washing my hair about three months ago and that has greatly improved the condition of my hair and scalp.

Same I have been no-poo for about a year.

Vitamin A and B6 have not stopped my dandruff yet. But I will say that aspirin has put my dandruff in overdrive, had to stop it this week.

I read on a @charlie posts that aspirin can exacerbate dandruff. I wonder if its do to increasing skin exfoliation. BHA or Salicylic acid applied to the skin causes exfoliation, I wonder if these are comparable and how this would relate to helping hair growth.

 

[Orion]

I was on a similar level of vitamin A for awhile but I have backed it off to 50,000 a day since coming off of Thyroid as I don't think my body can handle that much while not taking NDT without suppressing my thyroid.

My acne is quite severe, so hence the higher levels for now, basal temps and heart rate have stayed normal so far me. But will back eventually as well. I stopped NDT in January.

 

[charlie]

I read on a @charlie posts that aspirin can exacerbate dandruff.

Odd thing though. If I apply Aspirin topically like with haidut's Solban, or something like Scalpicin, the dermatitis quickly heals.

 

[Orion]

Odd thing though. If I apply Aspirin topically like with haidut's Solban, or something like Scalpicin, the dermatitis quickly heals.

Ah good to note, will see how the solban only approach goes. Thanks