Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[InChristAlone]

Yeah maybe we could have a separate thread where people post just the improvements from going low in vitamin A. It is hard to find them in this huge long thread.

So basically if one is healthy, they don't need to worry about vitamin A in their normal diet, but who in the heck is really healthy anymore? I was healthy until chronic stress and breastfeeding for years crashed me. I am slowly building my health back up, but it wasn't through strictly eating Peat that I've gotten this far. And I eat quite a lot of wheat lately. Too many potatoes still cause issues for me even though they are more nutritious than wheat. They have copper so I figure I should try with them but sometimes food can't just be broken down to what nutrients it has. Just because liver is an amazing source of riboflavin and b12 doesn't mean we should eat a lot of it. Some large seafood has boatloads of nutrition.... but you'll also go mad from the mercury.

 

[Blossom]

Here is mine that I can think of at the moment:
Skin-resolved redness, sensitivity.

Nails -beau’s lines growing out.

Hair-smoother, less shedding.

Energy-can work 12 hours on my feet in critical care easily now.

Mood-no depression/sad/irritability.

Bowels-regular 2x per day.

Hormones-menopause symptoms and thyroid significantly improved.

Sleep -uninterrupted most nights-I also sleep inclined.

Inflammation- seem to have none remaining.

Joint pain- hip, knees and neck/shoulder pain resolved.

Edema-mainly in upper arms is gone.

Blood pressure (started at 135/90 and now 110/75)

Cholesterol greatly improved (total from 260 down to 180)

Tolerate more foods without any nausea, cramping.

Memory/cognitive function improved- passed state boards on the first try (test has a 50% pass rate)

Vision clearer consistently- I still use reading glasses though.

More resilient to stress- mental and physical. I can go without eating for many hours if necessary without getting weak. Things that would have felt overwhelming before do not impact me nearly as intensely.

Resolved hirsutism- although probably a mild-moderate case I still didn't like it at all. I now have less than 5 softer lighter hairs that grow gradually and are easily managed versus having to inspect my chin and upper lip for new thick dark (manly) hairs multiple times daily.

 

[sunraiser]

Yeah maybe we could have a separate thread where people post just the improvements from going low in vitamin A. It is hard to find them in this huge long thread.

So basically if one is healthy, they don't need to worry about vitamin A in their normal diet, but who in the heck is really healthy anymore? I was healthy until chronic stress and breastfeeding for years crashed me. I am slowly building my health back up, but it wasn't through strictly eating Peat that I've gotten this far. And I eat quite a lot of wheat lately. Too many potatoes still cause issues for me even though they are more nutritious than wheat. They have copper so I figure I should try with them but sometimes food can't just be broken down to what nutrients it has. Just because liver is an amazing source of riboflavin and b12 doesn't mean we should eat a lot of it. Some large seafood has boatloads of nutrition.... but you'll also go mad from the mercury.

I think various complications can crop up from liver, and my experience is that it has very different effects to retinol palmitate supplements. I have had positive effects from palmitate at the same time as having negative effects from lamb / calves liver. My guess is that it's the B12 megadose but I obviously don't know.

I have also had negative effects from retinol palmitate in the past, too, but it's different to the way liver impacts me.

 

[tankasnowgod]

These are foods I commonly eat but each day is different. I eat ruminant meat basically everyday, rice, white potatoes, lots of low A fruits, juices and jelly, maple syrup, honey and some white vegetables, mushrooms, oxtail and occasional egg whites, turkey, scallops, tilapia, gluten free white bread, white corn, black and white beans. I use olive oil and small amount of butter. Cocoa powder for making hot chocolate (with water and sugar)! I'm doing organic as much as possible. I hope I remembered everything!
I copied the above from an earlier post in this thread. My skin wasn’t my primary concern but it became extremely dry and flaky yet oily at the same time last year with lips cracking especially in the corners. I had a few unusual red spots and some that had been around for a couple years that are now gone. My hair was thinning, extremely oily and growing in kinky. I had dermatitis herpetiformis from celiac on both elbows that would flare up slightly and randomly despite not eating gluten. My finger prints were atrophied indicating inflammation and they healed within a month or two.
I basically just stopped eating high A and carotene food to detox. I have donated blood 3 times and do UV light 1-2 times per week since it’s winter.

What were the high A or Carotene foods you cut out? And what was the frequency you were eating them?

 

[Blossom]

What were the high A or Carotene foods you cut out? And what was the frequency you were eating them?

Primarily fortified low fat dairy, whole eggs, liver, carrots and OJ. I was eating those things daily except for liver which I tried to have 1-2 times per month. I also took a men’s multi for several months called Men’s Raw One (no iron) that had quite a bit of beta-carotene.
Edit to add- I'm also off LDN and lisuride that I needed to function.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Primarily fortified low fat dairy, whole eggs, liver, carrots and OJ. I was eating those things daily except for liver which I tried to have 1-2 times per month. I also took a men’s multi for several months called Men’s Raw One (no iron) that had quite a bit of beta-carotene.

I've noticed recently that if I eat too many eggs, that my digestion seems to be compromised in some way. I happened across this little writeup by Loren Cordain (funny, hadn't thought about him in years) where he points out some of the proteins in egg white can be problematic if you have Leaky Gut or Auto-Immune issues, and that maybe they shouldn't be thought of a as daily staple for anyone-

https://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Paleo-Paper-eggwhite.pdf

 

[Blossom]

I've noticed recently that if I eat too many eggs, that my digestion seems to be compromised in some way. I happened across this little writeup by Loren Cordain (funny, hadn't thought about him in years) where he points out some of the proteins in egg white can be problematic if you have Leaky Gut or Auto-Immune issues, and that maybe they shouldn't be thought of a as daily staple for anyone-

https://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Paleo-Paper-eggwhite.pdf

Cool, thanks. That name is certainly a blast from the past. I do currently eat egg whites 1-2 times per week and it seems fine. I was told as a teenager that I had an egg yolk allergy but just thought I'd grown out of it. I never had any anaphylactic reaction though.

 

[Amazoniac]

Here is mine that I can think of at the moment:
Skin-resolved redness, sensitivity.

Nails -beau’s lines growing out.

Hair-smoother, less shedding.

Energy-can work 12 hours on my feet in critical care easily now.

Mood-no depression/sad/irritability.

Bowels-regular 2x per day.

Hormones-menopause symptoms and thyroid significantly improved.

Sleep -uninterrupted most nights-I also sleep inclined.

Inflammation- seem to have none remaining.

Joint pain- hip, knees and neck/shoulder pain resolved.

Edema-mainly in upper arms is gone.

Blood pressure (started at 135/90 and now 110/75)

Cholesterol greatly improved (total from 260 down to 180)

Tolerate more foods without any nausea, cramping.

Memory/cognitive function improved- passed state boards on the first try (test has a 50% pass rate)

Vision clearer consistently- I still use reading glasses though.

More resilient to stress- mental and physical. I can go without eating for many hours if necessary without getting weak. Things that would have felt overwhelming before do not impact me nearly as intensely.

Oh shiτ!!

The cholesterol part has been surprising.


- Metabolic carotenaemia (Monk)

"Blomstrand & Werner (1967), studying the fate of radioactively labelled β-carotene fed to healthy volunteers, found a single instance of a subject unable to convert carotene into vitamin A. They postulated that this was due to an enzyme defect in the intestinal mucosa, and suggested that such a defect might explain cases of carotenaemia occurring without excessive dietary intake of carotene."

"Sharvill (1970) reported a further instance of a subject with abnormal pigmentation due to carotenaemia despite a low intake of carotene in the diet and normal serum vitamin A and blood lipid levels. Other members of the family showed mild carotenaemia and low or normal vitamin A levels, suggesting a familial defect."

"The present report describes a further three cases of carotenaemia occurring in otherwise healthy subjects following a normal diet. Normal serum poison/"vitamin" A levels suggest a defect of carotene metabolism and exclude an occult dietary source."

"The diagnosis of 'metabolic carotenaemia' should be considered in cases of carotenaemia which cannot be explained on the basis of diet, lipid abnormality, or hypothyroidism."​

- Metabolic carotenaemia (Vaughan)

"Three types of carotenaemia have been described:[1] (i) dietary, elevated β-carotene and vitamin A levels: (ii) in association with hyperlipidaemia, elevated β-lipoprotein levels; (iii) metabolic, elevated β-carotene and low/normal vitamin A. Dietary factors are the commonest cause of carotenaemia. particularly in individuals with eating disorders such as food faddists, vegans, and patients with anorexia nervosa.[2]"

"β-lipoprotein is the major carrier of β-carotene in the plasma. Thus, in type IIA hyperlipidaemia in which β-lipoprotein levels are elevated (e.g. in hypothyroidism, diabetes mellitus, and nepbrotic syndrome) β-carotene levels are also raised. In hypothyroidism, there is an additional defect in conversion of β-carotene into vitamin A. Furthermore, it has been postulated that in anorexia nervosa there is a decrease in catabolism of β-lipoprotein.[4] This would equate with Klinefelter's observation of hypercholesterolaemia in some anorexics.[5]"

"Long-standing carotenaemia can have important sequelae. Weakness, weight loss, hepatomegaly, hypotension, neutropenia,[6] and amenorrhoea,[7] have all been reported. Thus, finding and treating the underlying cause is essential in the management of these patients."

"Dietary carotenaemia responds rapidly to a low-retinol diet within a few weeks. Hyper-β-lipoprotenaemia is reversible with treatment of tbe underlying cause, or a lipid-lowering diet, and this, in turn, leads to a reduction of serum β-carotene levels. Metabolic carotenaemia, however, is more difficult to treat. The mode of inheritance of this inborn enzyme deficiency has not yet been elucidated, and attempts at in vitro enzyme synthesis have so far been unsuccessful."​

- The hypercarotenemia in anorexia nervosa: a comparison of vitamin A and carotene levels in various forms of menstrual dysfunction and cachexia

- Genetic variations involved in interindividual variability in carotenoid status (!)
- A mitochondrial enzyme degrades carotenoids and protects against oxidative stress (!)

 

[Blossom]

Oh shiτ!!

The cholesterol part has been surprising.


- Metabolic carotenaemia (Monk)

View attachment 12345

"Blomstrand & Werner (1967), studying the fate of radioactively labelled β-carotene fed to healthy volunteers, found a single instance of a subject unable to convert carotene into vitamin A. They postulated that this was due to an enzyme defect in the intestinal mucosa, and suggested that such a defect might explain cases of carotenaemia occurring without excessive dietary intake of carotene."

"Sharvill (1970) reported a further instance of a subject with abnormal pigmentation due to carotenaemia despite a low intake of carotene in the diet and normal serum vitamin A and blood lipid levels. Other members of the family showed mild carotenaemia and low or normal vitamin A levels, suggesting a familial defect."

"The present report describes a further three cases of carotenaemia occurring in otherwise healthy subjects following a normal diet. Normal serum poison/"vitamin" A levels suggest a defect of carotene metabolism and exclude an occult dietary source."

"The diagnosis of 'metabolic carotenaemia' should be considered in cases of carotenaemia which cannot be explained on the basis of diet, lipid abnormality, or hypothyroidism."​

- Metabolic carotenaemia (Vaughan)

"Three types of carotenaemia have been described:[1] (i) dietary, elevated β-carotene and vitamin A levels: (ii) in association with hyperlipidaemia, elevated β-lipoprotein levels; (iii) metabolic, elevated β-carotene and low/normal vitamin A. Dietary factors are the commonest cause of carotenaemia. particularly in individuals with eating disorders such as food faddists, vegans, and patients with anorexia nervosa.[2]"

"β-lipoprotein is the major carrier of β-carotene in the plasma. Thus, in type IIA hyperlipidaemia in which β-lipoprotein levels are elevated (e.g. in hypothyroidism, diabetes mellitus, and nepbrotic syndrome) β-carotene levels are also raised. In hypothyroidism, there is an additional defect in conversion of β-carotene into vitamin A. Furthermore, it has been postulated that in anorexia nervosa there is a decrease in catabolism of β-lipoprotein.[4] This would equate with Klinefelter's observation of hypercholesterolaemia in some anorexics.[5]"

"Long-standing carotenaemia can have important sequelae. Weakness, weight loss, hepatomegaly, hypotension, neutropenia,[6] and amenorrhoea,[7] have all been reported. Thus, finding and treating the underlying cause is essential in the management of these patients."

"Dietary carotenaemia responds rapidly to a low-retinol diet within a few weeks. Hyper-β-lipoprotenaemia is reversible with treatment of tbe underlying cause, or a lipid-lowering diet, and this, in turn, leads to a reduction of serum β-carotene levels. Metabolic carotenaemia, however, is more difficult to treat. The mode of inheritance of this inborn enzyme deficiency has not yet been elucidated, and attempts at in vitro enzyme synthesis have so far been unsuccessful."​

- The hypercarotenemia in anorexia nervosa: a comparison of vitamin A and carotene levels in various forms of menstrual dysfunction and cachexia

- Genetic variations involved in interindividual variability in carotenoid status (!)
- A mitochondrial enzyme degrades carotenoids and protects against oxidative stress (!)

Yes, the cholesterol was quite shocking to me as well. I’m starting to think there’s an inherited component with me. I have a celiac gene (and diagnosed celiac) and two macular degeneration genes. My mom had bone spurs, severe osteoporosis, hyperlipidemia, hypertension and died right after turning 69. She always had very poor health. I’m starting to think certain people are especially sensitive to an over abundance of this substance. There are so many unknowns still but I appreciate your efforts to get to the bottom of things.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Vitamin effects on the immune system: vitamins A and D take centre stage (!)

"Vitamin A is obtained from the diet either as all-trans-retinol, retinyl esters or β-carotene11,12 (FIG. 1b). All-trans-retinol is esterified to retinyl esters and stored in the liver, mostly in the stellate cells11,12. In the tissues, all-trans-retinol and β-carotene are oxidized to all-trans-retinal by alcohol dehydrogenases or short chain dehydrogenase reductases, which are ubiquitously expressed enzymes11,12. All-trans-retinal is then oxidized to all-trans-retinoic acid through an irreversible reaction catalysed by retinal dehydrogenases (RALDHs), the expression of which is tightly controlled. A related metabolite of all-trans-retinal, 9-cis-retinoic acid, can be formed either by spontaneous isomerization of all-trans-retinoic acid or through oxidation of 9-cis-retinal by RALDH13. However, 9-cis-retinoic acid has not been shown to be synthesized in vivo13.

In adult mammals, RALDH can be found in some gut-associated cells, including intestinal epithelial cells (IECs)14,15 and gut-associated DCs, such as DCs from Peyer’s patches and mesenteric lymph nodes15,16. Interestingly, DCs from Peyer’s patches express RALDH-1 mRNA and protein, whereas DCs from mesenteric lymph nodes express mRNA encoding RALDH-2. Although the functional relevance of this differential RALDH isoform expression is currently unclear, it indicates that there might be more than one pathway or environmental stimulus that renders DCs capable of synthesizing retinoic acid from vitamin A. In addition, IECs also express RALDH-1 and can metabolize vitamin A to retinoic acid in vitro14, which indicates that they are another potential source of retinoic acid in the gut mucosa. The relative contributions and in vivo relevance of these different sources of retinoic acid in the gut are yet to be determined."​

The structural requirements for the biological activity of vitamin A are generally very strict: for example, the growth-promoting activity of vitamin A is reduced or eliminated by isomerization of the double-bond system, lengthening or shortening of the central chain, oxidation of the trimethyl-cyclohexene ring, and removal of the methyl groups (4). The same structural requirements apply to the carotenoids. Thus, of more than 500 carotenoids found naturally, only about 50 have provitamin A activity (3, 5,6).

Retinoid - Wikipedia

Spoiler

- “Vitamin hypothesis”: explanation for allergy increase?

 

[Amazoniac]

Yes, the cholesterol was quite shocking to me as well. I’m starting to think there’s an inherited component with me. I have a celiac gene (and diagnosed celiac) and two macular degeneration genes. My mom had bone spurs, severe osteoporosis, hyperlipidemia, hypertension and died right after turning 69. She always had very poor health. I’m starting to think certain people are especially sensitive to an over abundance of this substance. There are so many unknowns still but I appreciate your efforts to get to the bottom of things.

Has you readed the following publications? They reinforce our suspicion that the restriction works by shifting inflammatory patterns, and maybe by managing to redirect immunity while restricted there's less waste of nutrients that must now be going for repair.

- IL-15: a central regulator of celiac disease immunopathology
- Celiac disease: Retinoic acid and IL-15 jointly implicated in reversal of oral tolerance
- Co-adjuvant effects of retinoic acid and IL-15 induce inflammatory immunity to dietary antigens

The casein elimination coincided with that of poison A? If so, how much of your improvement does you attributes to each?

 

[Blossom]

Has you readed the following publications? They reinforce our suspicion that the restriction works by shifting inflammatory patterns, and maybe by managing to redirect immunity while restricted there's less waste of nutrients that must now be going for repair.

- IL-15: a central regulator of celiac disease immunopathology
- Celiac disease: Retinoic acid and IL-15 jointly implicated in reversal of oral tolerance
- Co-adjuvant effects of retinoic acid and IL-15 induce inflammatory immunity to dietary antigens

The casein elimination coincided with that of poison A? If so, how much of your improvement does you attributes to each?

Thank you. I’m not sure yet honestly. I tried Kalona Supernatural nonfortified dairy early on and tolerated it better than organic fortified low-fat dairy but not enough to continue going out of my way to consume it. I am definitely lactose intolerant. When it comes time for me to test consuming VA I think I will try liver first and then non fortified dairy with some lactase enzyme. I’m not really excited about that and will probably wait until July which will be one year of low VA for me.

 

[InChristAlone]

Chris Masterjohn has finally addressed this. Although he laughed when the question came up.

"You shouldn't deify any nutrient. Any point of view that breaks the world down into good and bad molecules is a doomed to failure point of view because molecules don't have virtues okay? Everything is about context and too much vitamin A which cannot be defined without context not just what are your needs, not just what are your genetics, not just what is your turnover, not just what is your eye color, not just are you getting pregnant, but also the presence of other things in the diet for example vitamin E, and vitamin K will effect the vitamin A requirement because they all regulate each other's breakdown. So look some people have too much vitamin A, some people take too much vitamin A than they should. There's dozens of case reports of vitamin A toxicity. But there's no evidence that people at normal intakes who are not supplementing are getting inflammation from consuming dietary levels of vitamin A. And look at what Pam said, I see 25% of people who she sees which any practitioner does not see a random sample and biased by who comes to see us, but 25% she sees signs of vitamin A deficiency that respond to vitamin A supplement, that's a fairly large proportion, well look at the amounts she's using 3,000-10,000 IU's is not a lot. The RDA is 3,000, if you're correcting a deficiency 10,000 is highly reasonable over a short period of time. But look if you have someone who has a very long history of taking vitamin A supplements at 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 IU over 3 years then yeah they might have all kinds of problems from that because they're taking too much and that's way more likely when they are not taking vitamin D, vitamin E, vitamin K, if you are just taking this one vitamin at a very high dose then yes it will cause toxicity there's nothing remotely controversial about that there's no question. There are probably a lot of people in Weston A Price who think more of a good thing is better. I know for a fact that many people were taking 2 or 3 tablespoons of high vitamin A cod liver oil for many years and that was nuts and it's nuts now. And they're getting too many fat soluble vitamins and too many polyunsaturated fatty acids from high levels of cod liver oil like that. But 3-10,000 even long term there's no evidence that that causes toxicity. BUT some people are going to be intolerant. I know anecdotes I know stories of people who take very low doses of vitamin A and it causes hypersensitivity reaction I don't know what causes it. So there will be stories of people who improve when they take vitamin A out of their diet. It will happen, it makes sense. And on top of that there are epidemic proportions of people with fatty liver. What happens when fatty liver gets bad the cells that store vitamin A in the liver dump their vitamin A in the blood stream so they can transform into cells that lay scar tissue down in the liver. So people with fatty liver which is about 3/4 of people who are obese right so about 70 million Americans maybe more now have fatty liver disease. Some portion of them are laying down scar tissue in their livers and they are losing the ability to properly store and metabolize vitamin A. Could taking vitamin A out of the diet for them help? Probably but its a tough place to be in because in those cases those people are going to have cellular vitamin A deficiency. So it's like do you save the liver or do you save everything else? Well you might want to withdraw vitamin A in those cases and you might want to fix the obesity and fatty liver disease and then restore the vitamin A that might be needed. But I have no problem saying some people get too much vitamin A, it can be toxic. But there are some people going around right now that are saying vitamin A is a toxin and it's intrinsically toxic and those people are truly absolutely nuts. I'm not saying it's Matt Stone, I don't know if he's saying that, but it's becoming very popular to say that. That's flat earth level thinking that it's intrinsically toxic and not a vitamin. "



He contradicted himself. He knows some people will have a hypersensitivity reaction and that they will get better without it, but he claims lower doses of vitamin A has no evidence of toxicity. Even Ray Peat says 5,000 IUs can cause toxicity symptoms in some people. And then he uses an ad hominem to discredit the people claiming it's a toxin.

 

[Makrosky]

He contradicted himself. He knows some people will have a hypersensitivity reaction and that they will get better without it, but he claims lower doses of vitamin A has no evidence of toxicity.

I don't see the contradiction. Some people is hypersensitive to casein, or soy, or whatever you want to say. Allergies and stuff. It's a biochemical individuality. Now for something to be "toxic" is a very different thing. Casein is not toxic.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I think it's possible that many Peatarians do not get enough vitamin E.

The only time I get anything more than like 10% RDA for vitamin E is when I eat beans, which are frowned upon here. Any source of vitamin E is going to have PUFA, so Peatarians will avoid any food that is a decent source of vitamin E as a result.

People might decide that the PUFA cancels out the vitamin E, so it's a wash, but that may not be true. PUFA can be managed by other means and Vitamin E has other roles in the body, not just managing PUFA lipid peroxidation.

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't see the contradiction. Some people is hypersensitive to casein, or soy, or whatever you want to say. Allergies and stuff. It's a biochemical individuality. Now for something to be "toxic" is a very different thing. Casein is not toxic.

But eczema isn't a hypersensitivity reaction it's the first sign of too much vitamin A.

 

[InChristAlone]

I think it's possible that many Peatarians do not get enough vitamin E.

The only time I get anything more than like 10% RDA for vitamin E is when I eat beans, which are frowned upon here. Any source of vitamin E is going to have PUFA, so Peatarians will avoid any food that is a decent source of vitamin E as a result.

People might decide that the PUFA cancels out the vitamin E, so it's a wash, but that may not be true. PUFA can be managed by other means and Vitamin E has other roles in the body, not just managing PUFA lipid peroxidation.

Anyone using progest-e gets plenty of vitamin E, and using vitamin E supplements is pretty popular as well.

 

[Tarmander]

Chris Masterjohn has finally addressed this. Although he laughed when the question came up.

"You shouldn't deify any nutrient. Any point of view that breaks the world down into good and bad molecules is a doomed to failure point of view because molecules don't have virtues okay? Everything is about context and too much vitamin A which cannot be defined without context not just what are your needs, not just what are your genetics, not just what is your turnover, not just what is your eye color, not just are you getting pregnant, but also the presence of other things in the diet for example vitamin E, and vitamin K will effect the vitamin A requirement because they all regulate each other's breakdown. So look some people have too much vitamin A, some people take too much vitamin A than they should. There's dozens of case reports of vitamin A toxicity. But there's no evidence that people at normal intakes who are not supplementing are getting inflammation from consuming dietary levels of vitamin A. And look at what Pam said, I see 25% of people who she sees which any practitioner does not see a random sample and biased by who comes to see us, but 25% she sees signs of vitamin A deficiency that respond to vitamin A supplement, that's a fairly large proportion, well look at the amounts she's using 3,000-10,000 IU's is not a lot. The RDA is 3,000, if you're correcting a deficiency 10,000 is highly reasonable over a short period of time. But look if you have someone who has a very long history of taking vitamin A supplements at 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 IU over 3 years then yeah they might have all kinds of problems from that because they're taking too much and that's way more likely when they are not taking vitamin D, vitamin E, vitamin K, if you are just taking this one vitamin at a very high dose then yes it will cause toxicity there's nothing remotely controversial about that there's no question. There are probably a lot of people in Weston A Price who think more of a good thing is better. I know for a fact that many people were taking 2 or 3 tablespoons of high vitamin A cod liver oil for many years and that was nuts and it's nuts now. And they're getting too many fat soluble vitamins and too many polyunsaturated fatty acids from high levels of cod liver oil like that. But 3-10,000 even long term there's no evidence that that causes toxicity. BUT some people are going to be intolerant. I know anecdotes I know stories of people who take very low doses of vitamin A and it causes hypersensitivity reaction I don't know what causes it. So there will be stories of people who improve when they take vitamin A out of their diet. It will happen, it makes sense. And on top of that there are epidemic proportions of people with fatty liver. What happens when fatty liver gets bad the cells that store vitamin A in the liver dump their vitamin A in the blood stream so they can transform into cells that lay scar tissue down in the liver. So people with fatty liver which is about 3/4 of people who are obese right so about 70 million Americans maybe more now have fatty liver disease. Some portion of them are laying down scar tissue in their livers and they are losing the ability to properly store and metabolize vitamin A. Could taking vitamin A out of the diet for them help? Probably but its a tough place to be in because in those cases those people are going to have cellular vitamin A deficiency. So it's like do you save the liver or do you save everything else? Well you might want to withdraw vitamin A in those cases and you might want to fix the obesity and fatty liver disease and then restore the vitamin A that might be needed. But I have no problem saying some people get too much vitamin A, it can be toxic. But there are some people going around right now that are saying vitamin A is a toxin and it's intrinsically toxic and those people are truly absolutely nuts. I'm not saying it's Matt Stone, I don't know if he's saying that, but it's becoming very popular to say that. That's flat earth level thinking that it's intrinsically toxic and not a vitamin. "



He contradicted himself. He knows some people will have a hypersensitivity reaction and that they will get better without it, but he claims lower doses of vitamin A has no evidence of toxicity. Even Ray Peat says 5,000 IUs can cause toxicity symptoms in some people. And then he uses an ad hominem to discredit the people claiming it's a toxin.

Wow, way to take a stand there Chris. People who take too much vitamin A are going to benefit from not taking too much vitamin A. Seriously stepping out of the box there. People who are genetically prone to not clearing A may not need as much A. I am amazed by his acumen. This whole paragraph from him is a giant nothing burger.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Anyone using progest-e gets plenty of vitamin E, and using vitamin E supplements is pretty popular as well.

Exactly, supplementation is the only route. Do you supplement? Blossom didn't mention supplementing vitamin E.

 

[Cirion]

I dunno, I think he makes a good point. There is always a danger in the health-o-sphere to take something and make extreme statements with it, in this case "Vitamin A is virtually almost always bad". Same with other things I have seen on these forums "Iron is always bad, so donate blood drink caffeine etc to get rid of it". Can any of these things be bad? Yes... but I think he gave the correct diplomatic answer... because there is no one size fits all...