Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[InChristAlone]

I agree vitamin A fortified milk isn't necessarily the most ideal, but I take the risk. The dosage isn't nearly as high as many vitamin A supplements, from what I can recall off the top of my head, and so it's not as worrysome as super dosing vitamin A on its own.

How can you get low PUFA without skim milk? There is no other protein that has low enough pufa, except gelatin. Perhaps our definition of low PUFA differ. For me, I aim for less than a gram most days of PUFA.

Ah yes vitamin C is one I forgot to list. I have been lazy with it lately. Will probably bring C back in my stack.

Yeah I was thinking of beef, you could do lean beef.

 

[somuch4food]

At the end of the day, virtually every food has some give (benefit) and take (negative) from it.

Exactly, no food is perfect, or else we would all be eating it.

The title of the video is "The Truth About Vitamins". People who ate carrots, leafy greens, etc a diet rich in beta carotene had a lower incidence of lung cancer. People given beta carotene high dose supplements had issues. The point of the video is taking supplements is not the same as what we take in from real food.

Food ain't innocent either. Last week, I was seeing a decrease in health and my flanks were fattening up quickly. The culprit was Lutein, a carotenoid and the dosage was in hundreds of mcg from real food. Everyone reacts differently, you have to figure out what works for you.

 

[Cirion]

Honestly, even 97% lean beef has more fat than I'd like plus 97% beef is super expensive lol. 8 oz of beef has like 0.6G pufa which on some days is how much pufa I get for the whole day, so that would double my pufa. It's just my personal choice though. I don't expect everyone to wanna go crazy low in PUFA like me. I am already a little annoyed that I "have" to have liverwurst once or twice a week because on those days I am higher PUFA than I want to be.

 

[tankasnowgod]

The title of the video is "The Truth About Vitamins". People who ate carrots, leafy greens, etc a diet rich in beta carotene had a lower incidence of lung cancer. People given beta carotene high dose supplements had issues. The point of the video is taking supplements is not the same as what we take in from real food.

Well, the title is "The Truth About Vitamins," but a more accurate title would be "The BBC's Official View That We Would Like You To Believe About Vitamins Without Doing Any Other Research On Your Own." This is not an objective "truth" by any means.

On the still when clicking on the page, there is a pic of Dr. Jeffery Blumberg from Tufts University. Who is Dr. Blumberg?

Jeffrey B. Blumberg | Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy

"In 2015, Dr. Blumberg was included in Thomson Reuters List of the World’s Most Influential Scientific Minds (top 1% of cited researchers in his field, 2002-2014). Dr. Blumberg also participates in activities relevant to the incorporation of sound nutrition science into public health policy and has served as a member of the Workshop on Health Promotion and Aging in the office of the U.S. Surgeon General, Sports Medicine Committee of the U.S. Olympic Committee, Consultation on Preparation and Use of Food-Based Dietary Guidelines for the WHO/FAO, Food Advisory Committee of the FDA, and other committees."

Keep in mind, all of those official government committees have agendas in regards to food, drugs, and vitamins that they are pushing.

 

[InChristAlone]

Honestly, even 97% lean beef has more fat than I'd like plus 97% beef is super expensive lol. 8 oz of beef has like 0.6G pufa which on some days is how much pufa I get for the whole day, so that would double my pufa. It's just my personal choice though. I don't expect everyone to wanna go crazy low in PUFA like me. I am already a little annoyed that I "have" to have liverwurst once or twice a week because on those days I am higher PUFA than I want to be.

Why must you have liverwurst every week? Even one ounce is quadruple the RDA for vitamin A. Ray Peat recommends no more than 5,000 IUs for most people.

 

[Cirion]

Why must you have liverwurst every week? Even one ounce is quadruple the RDA for vitamin A. Ray Peat recommends no more than 5,000 IUs for most people.

Iron, CoQ10, B12, folate, zinc, selenium.... just to name a few.

CoQ10 in particular is one of the hardest nutrients to get naturally. And yes, I personally believe dietary Iron is very important in the context of lots of Iron chelation in my diet (skim milk and gelatin are super low in iron, I have lots of maple syrup which chelates iron due to manganese and I have a decent amount of coffee which also chelates Iron). So I actually worry about getting too low in iron.

oh and by the way liverwurst is only 20% liver. The rest is ground beef, heart, and kidney. I have a pound of liverwurst a week, but that is equal to only around 3 oz a week of liver, hardly a lot imo.

 

[InChristAlone]

Iron, CoQ10, B12, folate, zinc, selenium.... just to name a few.

CoQ10 in particular is one of the hardest nutrients to get naturally. And yes, I personally believe dietary Iron is very important in the context of lots of Iron chelation in my diet (skim milk and gelatin are super low in iron, I have lots of maple syrup which chelates iron due to manganese and I have a decent amount of coffee which also chelates Iron). So I actually worry about getting too low in iron.

oh and by the way liverwurst is only 20% liver. The rest is ground beef, heart, and kidney. I have a pound of liverwurst a week, but that is equal to only around 3 oz a week of liver, hardly a lot imo.

Ok, I wasn't sure what ratio of the meats was in your liverwurst. I understand your concern about iron, red meat is a great source of heme iron and I think most people do well with some high quality red meat in their diet. I may be biased but I don't see many people do well long term on skim milk diets. One lady I know who lost tons of weight doing chocolate skim milk I think went a little crazy. She thinks she's becoming an Elvin princess. Her pictures appear to make her look pretty gaunt. I just want to feed her some pot roast with mashed potatoes and gravy.

 

[Cirion]

Ok, I wasn't sure what ratio of the meats was in your liverwurst. I understand your concern about iron, red meat is a great source of heme iron and I think most people do well with some high quality red meat in their diet. I may be biased but I don't see many people do well long term on skim milk diets. One lady I know who lost tons of weight doing chocolate skim milk I think went a little crazy. She thinks she's becoming an Elvin princess. Her pictures appear to make her look pretty gaunt. I just want to feed her some post roast with mashed potatoes and gravy.

LOL at elvin princess. I dunno if you meant that in a funny way but I thought it was amusing.

Oh yeah, I don't recommend skim milk to the exclusion of absolutely everything else. I realized quickly that skim milk as my "only" protein source wasn't working for me. At the very least I rotate skim milk, gelatin, liverwurst. I found I need SOME meat, and liverwurst once or twice a week satisfies my meat cravings.

And I am not low calorie. In fact my calories are still very high (often 5000+). I didn't go skim milk to go low calorie. I went skim milk to go low PUFA. I go crazy on the carbs, like real crazy, as much as I need to, in order to get the energy I need. I actually am not super low fat either, but I stick to CO/HCO for fats to keep the pufas down.

 

[Vinero]

I agree vitamin A fortified milk isn't necessarily the most ideal, but I take the risk. The dosage isn't nearly as high as many vitamin A supplements, from what I can recall off the top of my head, and so it's not as worrysome as super dosing vitamin A on its own.

How can you get low PUFA without skim milk? There is no other protein that has low enough pufa, except gelatin. Perhaps our definition of low PUFA differ. For me, I aim for less than a gram most days of PUFA.

Ah yes vitamin C is one I forgot to list. I have been lazy with it lately. Will probably bring C back in my stack.

I have been eating very low PUFA since 2009, and I developed some health problems like eczema and asthma anyway. Eating very low PUFA has done nothing to prevent these health problems.
I was at my most healthy in 2009-2012 eating both low PUFA and low vitamin A. (white rice, potatoes, beef, chicken-breast, dark chocolate).
My health started to decrease when I started to drink orange juice, eat carrot salad, leafy greens, and lots of cheese. Low PUFA is important but in my case it didn't prevent the development of asthma and eczema.

 

[Cirion]

I have been eating very low PUFA since 2009, and I developed some health problems like eczema and asthma anyway. Eating very low PUFA has done nothing to prevent these health problems. I was at my most healthy in 2009-2012 eating both low PUFA and low vitamin A. (white rice, potatoes, beef, chicken-breast, dark chocolate).
My health started to decrease when I started to drink orange juice, eat carrot salad, leafy greens, and lots of cheese. Low PUFA is important but in my case it didn't prevent the development of asthma and eczema.

Cheese isn't all that low pufa honestly. I don't eat cheese. The only real benefits of low pufa are seen at the ultra low intakes (less than a gram or two a day or even as low as 0.5 gram a day). RP himself only eats 1.5 gram a day now. You can blow over your PUFA limit with just a small serving of cheese hence why I stopped eating it.

I recently became aware of the vast importance of gelatin to balance out protein amino acids also, I note you didn't list gelatin in your foods? Cheese and milk etc and muscle meats really hurt you with tryptophan if it is not balanced with gelatin. I notice this for myself to be true. I also rarely eat leafy greens, and only eat them cooked when I do. I have noticed that raw leafy greens are very goitrogenic.

Just curious though - what did you do from 2012 onwards and why did you change up the diet if it was working for 3 yrs?

 

[Orion]

I have been eating very low PUFA since 2009, and I developed some health problems like eczema and asthma anyway. Eating very low PUFA has done nothing to prevent these health problems. I was at my most healthy in 2009-2012 eating both low PUFA and low vitamin A. (white rice, potatoes, beef, chicken-breast, dark chocolate).
My health started to decrease when I started to drink orange juice, eat carrot salad, leafy greens, and lots of cheese. Low PUFA is important but in my case it didn't prevent the development of asthma and eczema.

@Cirion I did the zero PUFA zero fat skim milk diet for almost 1 year, with no change in symptoms. Also I have been on less then 5grams of PUFA per day since 2009, so that is just my perspective. It may be different for you, but don't believe the PUFA is the root cause of metabolic issues, but probably not helpful in large amounts either.

 

[Cirion]

All I am saying is that the longer I post here the smarter I realize RP is, and it can be easy to accidentally or consciously ignore one aspect that really makes a big difference.

- low pufa
- high calcium (from milk)
- high gelatin (to balance tryptophan)

... just to name a couple. I have pushed back myself against many of his principles but almost without fail I am proven wrong and he is proven right, and each thing he recommends to do matters and does make a big difference. Now if some of the other principles are not followed, then yes low pufa may not work well. True not one specific thing will fix all your woes, but I think if more people actually followed most/all his principles they would be better off. Gelatin is HUGE for example. I ignored gelatin for a long time, thinking it didn't matter. Last week I started adding it in and wow, does it make a difference or what. I tried also ignoring him on pufa and was proven wrong there too. I ate some fatty fish and felt BAD. like knocked out 16+ hrs and still fatigued bad. Eggs and other PUFA heavy foods have a similar effect on me.

 

[Vinero]

Cheese isn't all that low pufa honestly. I don't eat cheese. The only real benefits of low pufa are seen at the ultra low intakes (less than a gram or two a day or even as low as 0.5 gram a day). RP himself only eats 1.5 gram a day now. You can blow over your PUFA limit with just a small serving of cheese hence why I stopped eating it.

I recently became aware of the vast importance of gelatin to balance out protein amino acids also, I note you didn't list gelatin in your foods? Cheese and milk etc and muscle meats really hurt you with tryptophan if it is not balanced with gelatin. I notice this for myself to be true. I also rarely eat leafy greens, and only eat them cooked when I do. I have noticed that raw leafy greens are very goitrogenic.

Just curious though - what did you do from 2012 onwards and why did you change up the diet if it was working for 3 yrs?

Well I discovered Raypeat.com in 2009 and the only thing I did was drop PUFA and not care about the other stuff. So basically I ate what I craved as long as it was low-PUFA so white rice, bread, and potatoes for my carbs, butter and coconut oils to fry meats like chicken breast and beef. Also I drank coffee and coke. Almost zero fruit and vegetable consumption. Amazingly, these were my golden years in the sense of having superior health. I also drank heavily and partied a lot, without any negative effects. As I researched Ray peat more intensively around 2013 I began to do all the stuff Ray recommends. So I added lots of orange juice, low-fat cheese, carrot salad, liver once every few weeks, some leafy greens, eggs daily etc. After a few months I got a rash on my legs and arms that never went away. I also developed asthma in 2016. Despite giving up my party and drinking lifestyle, and living as healthy as possible my health has never been as good as it was during my 2009-2012 period.

 

[Vinero]

@Cirion I did the zero PUFA zero fat skim milk diet for almost 1 year, with no change in symptoms. Also I have been on less then 5grams of PUFA per day since 2009, so that is just my perspective. It may be different for you, but don't believe the PUFA is the root cause of metabolic issues, but probably not helpful in large amounts either.

your story is similar to mine. I also am low-PUFA since 2009. Didn't prevent my eczema and asthma.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah I mean like I say there are a lot of factors and you are right - pufa is just one of many and I would not say that just lowering pufa is gonna magically make someone better. Another common mistake (that I myself have made) that I see time and time again is too much reliance on supplements. BTW, ray peat speaks out against that too, but many people here rarely listen to that advice, especially the newbies which almost always are on a huge stack of supplements (I've been there lol). There are many other things but that's just one of many I could mention.

 

[InChristAlone]

She really did believe she was going to become an elf through subliminal messages played while she sleeps
Yeah one of my biggest Peat mistakes was going on thyroid with no labs. I was on 1 grain dessicated thyroid before completely crashing my health with chronic stress and getting too thin. I don't generally recommend thyroid unless there is a problem with the thyroid gland itself. Our body is way more capable of dosing the right amounts than we are. I also don't recommend mega dosing progesterone. And neither does Peat, he says use physiological amounts. And then the other thing would be making my diet revolve around dairy. There are so many other delicious nutritious foods. But if your goal is PUFA depletion then so be it.

 

[dfspcc20]

Vitamin D being stored in marrow or beef fat? I'm sure that's news to most here. I've read that fat from mono-gastric animals (i.e. lard from pigs) can be a meager source of Vitamin D if the animals were getting sun, but never heard that for cattle.

Wouldn't arsenic or something else potentially stored in bones be a more likely cause in that case?

“Toxic” beef bone soup

"A 29-year-old man presented to us in July, 2009 with 2 months history of postprandial abdominal fullness, excessive thirst, nocturia and generalised weakness. For the past one month he was having recurrent vomiting, anorexia and constipation. He had no history of fever, headache, visual blurring, vertigo, colic, blood in stools, breathlessness, cough or jaundice. He was a smoker, non-alcoholic, and was not taking any prescribed medications or illicit drugs prior to onset of symptoms. Noncontrast computerised tomography (CT) scan of head, barium study of upper gut and oesophagogastroduodenoscopy tests, which had been done prior to presentation to us, were unremarkable. His physical examination was remarkable only for dehydration.

After adequate rehydration with normal saline, we took appropriate serum samples for assays of parathormone (Intact), 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3. These were 9.6 pg/mL (RR:15–65 pg/mL), 1146 ng/mL (RR:16–70 ng/mL) and 103.7 pg/mL (RR:19.6–54.3) respectively.

After repeated inquiry about his diet he revealed that in the belief of improving his stamina, he used to drink 1–2 litres of soup, prepared by prolonged boiling of long beef bones, at least 3 days every week, for 6 months prior to falling ill.

Since vitamin D is stored in fat (4), source of excessive vitamin D in our patient seems to be this “toxic” beef bone soup, with vitamin D coming from fatty marrow. In conclusion, this case report underscores the importance of in-depth dietary history for arriving at diagnosis particularly in young adults and adolescents in whom food fads are very common."

 

[InChristAlone]

Vitamin D being stored in marrow or beef fat? I'm sure that's news to most here. I've read that fat from mono-gastric animals (i.e. lard from pigs) can be a meager source of Vitamin D if the animals were getting sun, but never heard that for cattle.

Wouldn't arsenic or something else potentially stored in bones be a more likely cause in that case?

Yeah this was a surprise for me too. He used long bones so the marrow being a toxic source is likely. I don't think you'd get much from the fat. His vitamin D levels were very high!! I mean lead would be a concern in bone broth too but doesn't sound like they checked lead levels I bet they were elevated as well.

 

[Tarmander]

From my experience, PUFA has large diminishing returns in its restriction. There is a huge and noticable return going from 15g to 5g per day, but negligible going from 5g to 1g per day. Probably negative return if it causes stress to eek out that last bit of pufa restriction.

 

[dfspcc20]

Yeah this was a surprise for me too. He used long bones so the marrow being a toxic source is likely. I don't think you'd get much from the fat. His vitamin D levels were very high!! I mean lead would be a concern in bone broth too but doesn't sound like they checked lead levels I bet they were elevated as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more details that patient didn't tell his doctors.