Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[somuch4food]

So then when they are unbalanced again they will jump into another extreme shift which will solve the previous unbalance but with time will create another. Endless loop.

Extreme shifts are seriously wrong, that's for sure. I would never advocate this to anyone. I am all for moderation and iteration over time. I'm currently going the intuitive eating route and I'm burning myself often, but I'm learning my body's needs and reactions. Even small seemingly benign stuff can affect health in a powerful way.

 

[InChristAlone]

I suggest you read Grant's second book poisoning for profit, it may help answer your question.
https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PoisoningForProfits.pdf
The experiment is a simple and rudimentary way of testing the original experiment that classified Vitamin A as a vitamin. Upon which all the other research was built upon.

I can absolutely 100% understand the concerns people have. 100%. I talked about morality in the first mouse video and in the description of the new video. If I did not have a reasonably high level of confidence that the mice would be okay, I would not be conducting the experiment. I believe they will probably be okay because Grant conducted the same experiment with two gerbils.

I was a vegetarian for 5years, animals have always been a very significant part of my life, much more then for the average dog or cat owner. Life and nature does not conform to ideals. these are the same animals being put through all sorts of torture in studies for us to cite and discuss, these are the same animals that are being fed to reptiles constantly, sometimes while living. These animals suffer from horrible diseases humanely induces, or not. Just as we do.

None of this is justification, I do not need anyone's justification, it is context. Considering the potential significance and repercussions of vitamin A not being essential in the context of the original research, that is why I have made my decision. I stand by and honour it and continue to do so.

Respect to you all, I have had to work through my own concerns and this is the decision I have made.
I stand by it for better or worse.

You don't need to defend yourself. People are attacking you unnecessarily. It's shameful. People post rat studies on here daily and rarely have I ever seen someone comment on the cruelty of them. Some of these studies are downright sickening.

Sure you may not have access to the kind of lab testing that would show underlying diseases, but do any rat owners care to run multiple tests to make sure their rat isn't suffering? No, if it dies they get a new one.

I had guinea pigs that got sick, I did attempt to treat them at the vet but at that point they just needed to live out their life. It hurts to watch but that's the chance you take with any pet. They can't tell us what hurts.

I don't think what you are doing is cruel, if the rats do become blind and refuse to eat that's not any worse than what I've seen in dogs. My Mom has a dog who I believe got poisoned at 4 yrs old and he's been barely alive for the last yr and blind. They love him too much to put him down. There are pet dogs like that all over the world. Dogs eat the worst food available and suffer the worst diseases.

Anyway, I think attempting to breed them at least a few times would show the validity but I understand that's difficult as what would you do with 30 rats? Could give them away.

 

[Orion]

Well, I tried going much lower A for 3 months, and I didn't really see any improvements. In fact, dandruff goes seriously worse. I went back to eating calf liver last week, and dandruff is dramatically and noticeably better this week.

Just one point of view, but the thought here is(paradoxical vitamin A effect), going low vitamin A starts to release the stored *retins* into bloodsteam for removal, so its not unlike being on accutane, causing skin issues(dandruff, acne...). Going back on liver or supp'ing A then locks the retins back up in storage(stops dandruff). Anecdotally via Grant, and what other user experience, depleting stored A will take a loooooong time to fully remove symptoms, and skin is the last one to heal properly(probably since it is our largest organ).

 

[Amazoniac]

I think I understand it now... what they want to disprove is the most blatant things. That the animals will not die abruptly, that their eyes do not melt, etc... but if that doesn't happen it doesn't mean they are healthy. They could have tumors and what not inside.

It's a spectrum of poison to superfluous. Speaking supers, I don't know if you're superstitious or are into conspiracies, but I mentioned Walt Disney a few pages back and now Donald Duck is following me.

It's a home experiment. He is caring for them. I'm pretty sure if he sees their health go south he will change their diet/stop the experiment.

You cannot compare what he's doing with professionals getting paid and having access to diagnosis tools.

The first attempt failed and apparently the animals were discarded. After an eventual successful conclusion, what would make it more credible than the others that have been published before?

In my opinion home experiments are justifiable if they could provide something unique to what has already been doneded. Videos are cool documentation, but even in persons who could be interviewed and cooperate in providing information during depletion, certain aspects required testing for detection.

And here we have a third useless and pointless phrase, it's just for the sake of expressing myself in spite of being aware that it's not being read other than by yourself, due to curiosity and to confirm that there's nothing threatening your reputation; Yi, to inspect for offenses that never existed; and Blossom, out of cordiality.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Just one point of view, but the thought here is(paradoxical vitamin A effect), going low vitamin A starts to release the stored *retins* into bloodsteam for removal, so its not unlike being on accutane, causing skin issues(dandruff, acne...). Going back on liver or supp'ing A then locks the retins back up in storage(stops dandruff). Anecdotally via Grant, and what other user experience, depleting stored A will take a loooooong time to fully remove symptoms, and skin is the last one to heal properly(probably since it is our largest organ).

That could be..... or, Grant's theory could have some holes and be flawed. I tend toward the later view, especially since he doesn't seem to know the difference between retinol and beta carotene. I am open to the view that that you describe, but would need to see some pretty compelling evidence that that is the case, and I haven't seen it yet. Those that have had success with low/no A seem to have had some noticeable improvements within that three month period. I did not.

 

[Tarmander]

I respect that there's a part of you that's trying to bring enlightenment and help others, but I still cannot see any possible use to bring animals into the equation. You literally have humans with human physiology in this thread running the tests on themselves. Humans that can and will give feedback, alongside yourself.

Words can only make a person consider something more deeply, they can't change a person's view when it's strong - experience alone does that. So I only ask you to reflect more deeply if you don't have an urge for some kind of scientific gravitas or a perceived validation of your intelligence by running an experiment like this, or to build a profile for yourself for whatever reason.

I only ask this because there really really really isn't any justification to be putting the mice through this.

You mention mice like to eat "what they like, not what's good for them" - are you sure you know better than a mouse what's good for it in a given moment?



If you have such a high level of confidence then it's another reason to keep conducting the experiment on yourself. You have at least 3 forum members here plus yourself, and they'll all give more accurate data than a mouse experiment ever could.

It's all very well saying animals are a significant part of your life but finding the value in wellbeing and a true appreciation for life of any kind can often only really come when having felt (and deeply reflected on) the kind of hardship it's possible to feel. A willingness to put any kind of intentional hardship on another being when there isn't going to be a real terms benefit to it - given the fact human tests have been done, and are also currently being done by yourself and forum members - is something that shouldn't be taken lightly.

I'm glad you've reflected on your concerns to a degree but this just isn't necessary. There won't be enough consequence in the results - it's just you playing god without due respect for other living beings.

There are so many more options with mice verse humans, it is totally justified. He can do several generations of mice if he so chooses to see the prolonged effect of no A. He can feed mice babies no A and see what happens. I seriously doubt anyone wants to offer up their human child to experiment a no vitamin A diet from birth. Yes people are experimenting on themselves with a lack of vitamin A, but we have all had plenty of A our whole lives. What if we do not need anymore, and have the storage for the next several decades? Mice is the only place where you could test whether the original vitamin A studies were accurate or not.

You have a point in that he should not be cruel, but your pro mouse anti human attitude undermines the point.

Just one point of view, but the thought here is(paradoxical vitamin A effect), going low vitamin A starts to release the stored *retins* into bloodsteam for removal, so its not unlike being on accutane, causing skin issues(dandruff, acne...). Going back on liver or supp'ing A then locks the retins back up in storage(stops dandruff). Anecdotally via Grant, and what other user experience, depleting stored A will take a loooooong time to fully remove symptoms, and skin is the last one to heal properly(probably since it is our largest organ).

The thing I hate about this is how close it is getting to "you feel bad if you have it and bad if you avoid it"....meaning it is getting to that health quack place where you feel worse and they tell you you are getting better...the hallmark of all detox scams.

 

[Orion]

The thing I hate about this is how close it is getting to "you feel bad if you have it and bad if you avoid it"....meaning it is getting to that health quack place where you feel worse and they tell you you are getting better...the hallmark of all detox scams.

I always questioned the whole Herx and re-tracing stuff as well. But will say I have experienced weird symptoms in the last few months on low A, that I have never experienced before, all while starting to look and feel much better. Journey continues...

 

[Tarmander]

I always questioned the whole Herx and re-tracing stuff as well. But will say I have experienced weird symptoms in the last few months on low A, that I have never experienced before, all while starting to look and feel much better. Journey continues...

Yeah I am the same. I had this spot show up on the underside of my forearm. Would not rub off, looked like a birthmark...then a week later it was gone. I still cough up phlegm as well when I am particularly strict with the diet...so I am definitely experiencing "detox" while feeling better and better.

 

[InChristAlone]

There are so many more options with mice verse humans, it is totally justified. He can do several generations of mice if he so chooses to see the prolonged effect of no A. He can feed mice babies no A and see what happens. I seriously doubt anyone wants to offer up their human child to experiment a no vitamin A diet from birth. Yes people are experimenting on themselves with a lack of vitamin A, but we have all had plenty of A our whole lives. What if we do not need anymore, and have the storage for the next several decades? Mice is the only place where you could test whether the original vitamin A studies were accurate or not.

You have a point in that he should not be cruel, but your pro mouse anti human attitude undermines the point.



The thing I hate about this is how close it is getting to "you feel bad if you have it and bad if you avoid it"....meaning it is getting to that health quack place where you feel worse and they tell you you are getting better...the hallmark of all detox scams.

Yeah no way any human would test no vitamin A on their babies. And all of us had a lifetime of eating it. These studies are justifiable.

 

[sunraiser]

You have a point in that he should not be cruel, but your pro mouse anti human attitude

It's pro sentient willing participant vs the opposite (maybe sentient but definitely not willing). There's a huge difference.

The thing I hate about this is how close it is getting to "you feel bad if you have it and bad if you avoid it"....meaning it is getting to that health quack place where you feel worse and they tell you you are getting better...the hallmark of all detox scams.

It's the same as every other dogmatic approach. I do think a degree of herx can exist but healing means feeling consistently better.

Detox symptoms are minor road bumps that don't lead to a week to week sense of lower wellbeing. If a person finds themselves asking serious questions then it's probably time to stop.

Dandruff could well be one of those things, but I wouldn't say it's a good sign unless overall wellbeing is really improving alongside it.

I remember when I first stopped gluten and people on the gluten free forums used to say straight faced; "it can up to two years before you start feeling any better".

Youfuckingwhatm8????

Also seeing the horrible paths of people not getting better then being told "must be the oxalates", then "fodmap" .etc etc.. Only to see the person in hell 6 months down the line eating only rice and room temperature mineral water.

I'm very glad people are healing and making progress quite consistently in this case, though.

I think I probably have an okay vitamin A tolerance due to eating lots of whole grains (consistently crave them) and even cashews. Grains and beans seem to be excellent nutrient uptakers from the soil so they often cover a lot of trace mineral bases.

 

[Christoph]

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.”
NEJM editor: “No longer possible to believe much of clinical research published”

Thanks Charlie. This article just scratches the surface on how corrupt the medical industrial complex really is.

 

[tankasnowgod]

It's pro sentient willing participant vs the opposite (maybe sentient but definitely not willing). There's a huge difference.

Are you making the claim that an infant or toddler can give informed consent?

 

[InChristAlone]

Like I have said in the past, riboflavin is a big contributor to skin problems. I am testing out 20 mg of it a day to see if my butt crack heals. As genital dermatitis can also be riboflavin deficiency. It's certainly not vitamin A as I've eaten liver in the past and had no improvement. But liver is one of the best sources so I have my doubts it's riboflavin deficiency.

 

[sunraiser]

Are you making the claim that an infant or toddler can give informed consent?

Haha no... read the post he quoted for context.

 

[InChristAlone]

I also questioned Herxing as well. But it is a thing for killing gut bacteria as that is when I would get Herx symptoms in the past. I think that just means you are being poisoned! But Garrett says with the low vitamin A you'll have detox cycles where for a few days you'll see bad symptoms then get even better after. If there are no improvements after then it's the wrong path.

 

[sunraiser]

I also questioned Herxing as well. But it is a thing for killing gut bacteria as that is when I would get Herx symptoms in the past. I think that just means you are being poisoned! But Garrett says with the low vitamin A you'll have detox cycles where for a few days you'll see bad symptoms then get even better after. If there are no improvements after then it's the wrong path.

It is important to give things a fair chance and a hyper awareness of every negative reaction is definitely just as bad as suffering in the name of detox.

Patience and finding middle ground, as always.

My main assertion is that, on a week to week basis, if something is working it'll be quite apparent, just as if it's making you worse.

 

[Cirion]

Just gonna throw this thought out there

At the end of the day, virtually every food has some give (benefit) and take (negative) from it.

It's up to us to decide for ourselves how to get the most give with the least take, especially in the context of our current needs and state of health. I can respect that vitamin A could be problematic for some at certain dosages, but I will probably not give up my skim milk that yes, is fortified with vitamin A or my carrots. I need the milk because it is a virtually zero source of PUFA, and I deem avoiding PUFA among the most important things to do. I need my carrots because I like to have my carrot salad. Other than that though I don't go out of my way to get vitamin A on purpose, and I don't supplement it either. Supplementation honestly of ANY nutrient can be very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. I find I take less and less supplements and get more and more of my nutrition from food as I become wiser in my journey. Supplementation can really mess you up. For example I just learned that Vitamin E supplementation can cause really painful bowel movements due to blood thinning. Aspirin can easily cause bruising (even with vitamin K supplementation). I now don't take E, aspirin, or K anymore for these reasons. So, given my negative experiences from supplementation, I can absolutely see how supplementing vitamin A could really mess you up. Part of the problem is that supplements come in supraphysical dosages that the body would normally never see in a normal diet. Because of this, one should NEVER supplement something unless they are virtually 100% sure they are deficient in it. That's now my stance. That's why now the only supplements I take are salt, vitamin D, magnesium, baking soda, caffeine.

Just think we should avoid the dogma of either extreme of "take this in high quantities" or "avoid this nutrient entirely 100%". Either extreme is rarely the correct answer.

& with that, I'm leaving my soap box. Lol

 

[dbh25]

2004 BBC Horizon documentary covering Poison/"Vitamin A" known dangers, "The Truth About Vitamins"

The title of the video is "The Truth About Vitamins". People who ate carrots, leafy greens, etc a diet rich in beta carotene had a lower incidence of lung cancer. People given beta carotene high dose supplements had issues. The point of the video is taking supplements is not the same as what we take in from real food.

 

[InChristAlone]

Just gonna throw this thought out there

At the end of the day, virtually every food has some give (benefit) and take (negative) from it.

It's up to us to decide for ourselves how to get the most give with the least take, especially in the context of our current needs and state of health. I can respect that vitamin A could be problematic for some at certain dosages, but I will probably not give up my skim milk that yes, is fortified with vitamin A or my carrots. I need the milk because it is a virtually zero source of PUFA, and I deem avoiding PUFA among the most important things to do. I need my carrots because I like to have my carrot salad. Other than that though I don't go out of my way to get vitamin A on purpose, and I don't supplement it either. Supplementation honestly of ANY nutrient can be very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. I find I take less and less supplements and get more and more of my nutrition from food as I become wiser in my journey. Supplementation can really mess you up. For example I just learned that Vitamin E supplementation can cause really painful bowel movements due to blood thinning. Aspirin can easily cause bruising (even with vitamin K supplementation). I now don't take E, aspirin, or K anymore for these reasons. So, given my negative experiences from supplementation, I can absolutely see how supplementing vitamin A could really mess you up.

Just think we should avoid the dogma of either extreme of "take this in high quantities" or "avoid this nutrient entirely 100%". Either extreme is rarely the correct answer.

& with that, I'm leaving my soap box. Lol

But you won't know if the skim milk is hurting you unless you try elimination. A low vitamin A diet can have very low PUFA as well.

Also Riboflavin is so non toxic they haven't found a toxic level. Same for vitamin C, the toxic level is so high you'd never get there. I think with all the fat-solubles as a community we need to be more careful.

 

[Cirion]

But you won't know if the skin milk is hurting you unless you try elimination. A low vitamin A diet can have very low PUFA as well.

Also Riboflavin is so non toxic they haven't found a toxic level. Same for vitamin C, the toxic level is so high you'd never get there. I think with all the fat-solubles as a community we need to be more careful.

I agree vitamin A fortified milk isn't necessarily the most ideal, but I take the risk. The dosage isn't nearly as high as many vitamin A supplements, from what I can recall off the top of my head, and so it's not as worrysome as super dosing vitamin A on its own.

How can you get low PUFA without skim milk? There is no other protein that has low enough pufa, except gelatin. Perhaps our definition of low PUFA differ. For me, I aim for less than a gram most days of PUFA.

Ah yes vitamin C is one I forgot to list. I have been lazy with it lately. Will probably bring C back in my stack.