Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Doer]

Yeah its been my experience aswell that copper and Vit A toxicity go together.

 

[youngsinatra]

For those who struggle with paradoxically low ceruloplasmin and vitamin A toxicity, that does not resolve with increased copper intake or anything else:

„It is suggested that vitamin A influences metabolism of Cu, Fe and Zn possibly, in
part, due to a decrease in secretion of transport proteins by the liver“

„Levels of albumin were reduced in the plasma of chicks fed on both high and
low intakes of vitamin A (Tab. I), whereas ceruloplasmin levels where enhanced at low vitamin A and depressed at high vitamin A intakes.“

„Both cytochrome C oxidase activity and SOD activity was increased in low vitamin-A fed chickens.“

— The effect of different dietary levels of vitamin A on metabolism of copper iron and zinc in the chick - PubMed

 

[Motorneuron]

Yeah I didn't feel sh1t from copper supplements. I used copper glycinate. I will soon be starting an experiment involving eating beef liver for month. I will be eating 100g of beef liver a day. If I start feeling bad I will stop, but I need to correct my copper levels somehow.

Do you think liver VA will allow copper to be absorbed and transported on a regular basis? because from what i've read so far they are antagonists...please clarify

 

[Vanset]

Do you think liver VA will allow copper to be absorbed and transported on a regular basis? because from what i've read so far they are antagonists...please clarify

Retinol helps induce the synthesis of ceruloplasmin

 

[Vanset]

For those who struggle with paradoxically low ceruloplasmin and vitamin A toxicity, that does not resolve with increased copper intake or anything else:

„It is suggested that vitamin A influences metabolism of Cu, Fe and Zn possibly, in
part, due to a decrease in secretion of transport proteins by the liver“

„Levels of albumin were reduced in the plasma of chicks fed on both high and
low intakes of vitamin A (Tab. I), whereas ceruloplasmin levels where enhanced at low vitamin A and depressed at high vitamin A intakes.“

„Both cytochrome C oxidase activity and SOD activity was increased in low vitamin-A fed chickens.“

— The effect of different dietary levels of vitamin A on metabolism of copper iron and zinc in the chick - PubMed

View attachment 49289

Interesting. I have tested my serum vitamin A and I'm well within range. I will test ceruloplasmin after my experiment is done.

 

[youngsinatra]

Interesting. I have tested my serum vitamin A and I'm well within range. I will test ceruloplasmin after my experiment is done.

I‘ve seen serum retinol doubling during their first 6 months of following a low vitamin A dieting in a few cases.

My serum retinol was actually the „lowest“ when I started, then skyrocketed at the 6th month and then came back down a bit but still above my start value.

 

[orangebear]

Retinol helps induce the synthesis of ceruloplasmin

What you do is up to you, but I went down a similar route with Morley Robbins' Root Cause Protocol. I ate tons of beef liver and oysters, and supplemented cod liver oil. I did increase my ceruloplasmin a bit, but seven months into the protocol, all my symptoms that I now recognize as vA toxicity got much worse. I don't think chasing a high ceruloplasmin lab result equals great health. What's the point of great labs (in someone's misguided opinion) when you feel terrible?

 

[Vanset]

I‘ve seen serum retinol doubling during their first 6 months of following a low vitamin A dieting in a few cases.

My serum retinol was actually the „lowest“ when I started, then skyrocketed at the 6th month and then came back down a bit but still above my start value.

Honestly thinking about this I get stuck in analysis paralysis. The only real way to know for sure is liver biopsy., right? I'm gonna assume I don't have that much of it stored since my liver panel is good. If I start feeling like crap I will stop. The bottom line is: I have slightly below range Copper (not free, never tested), and rock bottom ceruloplasmin (similar to your labs).

 

[Vanset]

What you do is up to you, but I went down a similar route with Morley Robbins' Root Cause Protocol. I ate tons of beef liver and oysters, and supplemented cod liver oil. I did increase my ceruloplasmin a bit, but seven months into the protocol, all my symptoms that I now recognize as vA toxicity got much worse. I don't think chasing a high ceruloplasmin lab result equals great health. What's the point of great labs (in someone's misguided opinion) when you feel terrible?

Oh yeah I'm definitely wary. This willlast a month at most and then I will retest.

 

[orangebear]

Oh yeah I'm definitely wary. This willlast a month at most and then I will retest.

I mean the funny thing is that I did feel better for a couple months before it all crashed down. There's an interesting effect where some bad things can make us feel better temporarily at a future cost.

 

[Vanset]

I'm going to admit that I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to this whole iron/copper/ceruloplasmin/retinol etc. relationship and only recently started researching this topic at all.

 

[orangebear]

BTW, I recently came across Meri's posts on a low vA Facebook group and her take on how vA toxicity works is quite intriguing. Her take seems to be less about vA being a toxin bar none like Grant and Dr. Smith believe, but instead that an impaired vA metabolism can lead to build ups of vA and its metabolites, which causes problems on a number of levels. That said, from what I gather she does believe that overdoing vA can be an initial cause of an impaired vA metabolism. Here's an article from her website. Impaired Vitamin A Metabolism, Retinoic Acid Deficiency, and Neurological Decline. – Weak Therefore Strong

 

[youngsinatra]

Honestly thinking about this I get stuck in analysis paralysis. The only real way to know for sure is liver biopsy., right? I'm gonna assume I don't have that much of it stored since my liver panel is good. If I start feeling like crap I will stop. The bottom line is: I have slightly below range Copper (not free, never tested), and rock bottom ceruloplasmin (similar to your labs).

I am interested to see know how your experiment turns out.
What are your symptoms you are trying to resolve?

 

[Vanset]

I am interested to see know how your experiment turns out.
What are your symptoms you are trying to resolve?

I have lots of strange symptoms that seem to revolve around blood flow, adrenaline, adrenal function and electrolyte imbalance, especially sodium, but I can't quite pinpoint the root cause.

 

[Abcdefgmo]

Not sure how vA is a copper antagonist. I've heard many reports of vA and copper toxicity going hand in hand, including my own experience confirmed by both symptoms and labs.

Yeah I've heard both, but you're probably right, they both slow down metabolism according to HTMA
Also, screw plant based, I recommend just staying away from vitamin A, iron, and copper supplements for sure

Butter and eggs are essential to remove copper via bile

 

[Abcdefgmo]

I think copper deficiency is real, and it's because it's best from plants, but glyphosate is rampant, so only organic plant foods can provide your daily needs
Supplements are useless, maybe this is why people are going in circles, they either try supplementation or eat supposed copper rich foods that arent organic

 

[orangebear]

I think copper deficiency is real, and it's because it's best from plants, but glyphosate is rampant, so only organic plant foods can provide your daily needs
Supplements are useless, maybe this is why people are going in circles, they either try supplementation or eat supposed copper rich foods that arent organic

I can't speak for others, but I've gotten copper toxic without trying to be 100% organic. I used to really love oysters and chocolate. I've been working on detoxing copper for some time. Given my symptoms and labs, I don't think copper deficiency is an issue for me at all.

 

[Motorneuron]

@orangebear Keep the general picture of things and paths together well, in the medium to long term you will create imbalances around or bottlenecks on missing nutrients... don't focus only on copper / zinc but maybe I shouldn't tell you this

 

[orangebear]

@Backtolife90 if I had to guess, I would say the vA toxicity was probably a factor in me becoming copper toxic, perhaps more so than the oyster and chocolate consumption. A lot of imbalances probably happen due to the detox pathways not working properly. A reasonably healthy person should be able to eat a varied diet and the body should sort out what to hold onto and what to expel. Obsessing over micronutrients is something sick people do and would have been impossible before they were discovered, yet healthy people existed in the past, just eating and not worrying. That said, I’m not as healthy as I would like to be so I do obsess over nutrition somewhat, but I have come to the conclusion that cramming micronutrients is the wrong approach, and can often be harmful.

 

[Abcdefgmo]

@Backtolife90 if I had to guess, I would say the vA toxicity was probably a factor in me becoming copper toxic, perhaps more so than the oyster and chocolate consumption. A lot of imbalances probably happen due to the detox pathways not working properly. A reasonably healthy person should be able to eat a varied diet and the body should sort out what to hold onto and what to expel. Obsessing over micronutrients is something sick people do and would have been impossible before they were discovered, yet healthy people existed in the past, just eating and not worrying. That said, I’m not as healthy as I would like to be so I do obsess over nutrition somewhat, but I have come to the conclusion that cramming micronutrients is the wrong approach, and can often be harmful.

They say Iron and Copper accumulate with aging, with copper in supplements and in water being more toxic than food copper, but maybe if one is eating vegan for example with less zinc and animal fat to deplete copper via bile, that copper can be problematic as well

I think we need to stop with the assumption that if iron is bad, copper must be good! They in fact could both be high! This could be another reason people have been going in circles

Apparently ascorbic acid oxidizes into oxalic acid, and oxalic acid can bind free iron
Vitamin C can also block copper absorption and chelate it
Maybe this is why people feel better with Vitamin C

Also, its ceruloplasmin that carries copper, and its dependent on the liver, thyroid, and adrenals
Well copper antagonizes the adrenals via blocking vitamin C and B5
And copper accumulation is a known cause of liver disease along with iron
Copper is also tied with estrogen which messes with the thyroid