Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

orangebear

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Thanks, appreciate it!
Quick question, since you're around at the moment! Is coffee ok on the VAD? Or anyone else who can chime in? No coffee, or just no caffeine?
Coffee seems to be somewhat controversial in the low vA community. I generally don't drink it as much as when I was on RP style foods, but I'll have some a couple times a month. It is a stimulant so I don't believe that it has zero downsides even though it's generally mild.
 

Tarmander

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Thanks, appreciate it!
Quick question, since you're around at the moment! Is coffee ok on the VAD? Or anyone else who can chime in? No coffee, or just no caffeine?
I don't personally drink it as it messes with my stomach and sleep, but it doesnt have any VA in it.
 

Kray

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I started with psyllium husk and I find that in times that I get any setbacks I handle it better than beans, though I usually handle beans fine now. It's also recommended by Unique Hammond before breakfast in her Bean Protocol. So I do psyllium husk in the morning, and then it's mostly beans, apples, and sometimes potatoes throughout the day for the bulk of my soluble fiber. Try different sources and see what agrees best with you.

Dr. Smith recommends a tanning lamp over vitamin D but either one is fine if that's what you have. I bought a vitamin D lamp for 500$ when I was doing RP style eating so it doesn't make sense for me to replace something that expensive. That said, you might want to start slow with UV light because some people can be quite sensitive to it. It all depends on the individual. I'd say start with 3 minutes one day and see how you feel. Then you can go up if it's working well. I only use my vitamin D lamp 3 months in the winter.
That's very helpful. Does it matter if bulk husk, powder, or capsules? I happen to have capsules.
As for the lamps, do you mean Dr Smith recommends a lamp over vitamin D supplements? I purchased sessions at a tanning salon. They offer both options- 50/50 UVA/UVB and a mostly-UVB option where I would be getting about 95% UVB, only 5% UVA. I'm not sure what people are sensitive to- the UVA/sunburn effect or UVB/vitamin D effect. If you mean sunburn, then I guess I should opt for the mostly-UVB option. Thanks-
 

orangebear

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That's very helpful. Does it matter if bulk husk, powder, or capsules? I happen to have capsules.
As for the lamps, do you mean Dr Smith recommends a lamp over vitamin D supplements? I purchased sessions at a tanning salon. They offer both options- 50/50 UVA/UVB and a mostly-UVB option where I would be getting about 95% UVB, only 5% UVA. I'm not sure what people are sensitive to- the UVA/sunburn effect or UVB/vitamin D effect. If you mean sunburn, then I guess I should opt for the mostly-UVB option. Thanks-
Psyllium husk should be well hydrated before consuming so I’d recommend using powder dissolved in an adequate amount of water over capsules. I find vitamin D supplements to be problematic for me and Dr. Smith recommends against them as well. UV light is definitely preferred. Either type should work as long as UVB is part of it.
 

Kray

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Psyllium husk should be well hydrated before consuming so I’d recommend using powder dissolved in an adequate amount of water over capsules. I find vitamin D supplements to be problematic for me and Dr. Smith recommends against them as well. UV light is definitely preferred. Either type should work as long as UVB is part of it.
Thanks so much, orangebear. I went back and re-read your earlier post about how you balance between psyllium and other foods. And thank you for clarifying the bit about the UV lamps. Sure hope it will help, but I'm really looking forward to incorporating psyllium into my routine.
 
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Vinero

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Sorry if you covered this already elsewhere, but can you give a basic list of foods you eat regularly? I'm trying to rid myself of itchy dry skin rashes (eczema?) and have started a low A diet within the past week. I am assuming A is the culprit, since I've singled out other sources, following a Peat diet for about 8 years. Some improvement in skin since lowering dairy to almost nil but still struggle mostly at night with itching.
The diet I used to clear my eczema was:
Lean beef, White rice, Coca-cola/pepsi, some mushrooms or cauliflower as vegetables. This diet reversed my declining health and gave me nice skin again.
But I have discovered I can also eat cheese, eggs, butter, and milk and have clear skin.
In other words, vitamin A doesn't seem to cause any eczema for me.
In fact, milk, eggs, and butter have only improved my skin health. I have been eating 4 egg yolks a day with as much butter as I want, and drinking a quart of milk a day.
I still eat lots of beef. And lots of simple sugars too like honey, sugar syrup, coke, strained fruit juicies (apple or orange), sometimes white chocolate,
What seems to trigger my eczema is certain plant toxins. I haven't found out if it's oxalates, salicylate, soluble fiber, lectins, etc. But I can't eat the following foods without my skin going crazy and feeling poisoned:
Beans, nuts, potatoes, most whole grains, cacoa/dark chocolate, high amounts of any vegetables and fruits.
Notice how most of these foods don't even contain any vitamin A or carotenoids.
 
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orangebear

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Thanks so much, orangebear. I went back and re-read your earlier post about how you balance between psyllium and other foods. And thank you for clarifying the bit about the UV lamps. Sure hope it will help, but I'm really looking forward to incorporating psyllium into my routine.
You’re very welcome 😊
The diet I used to clear my eczema was:
Lean beef, White rice, Coca-cola/pepsi, some mushrooms or cauliflower as vegetables. This diet reversed my declining health and gave me nice skin again.
But I have discovered I can also eat cheese, eggs, butter, and milk and have clear skin.
In other words, vitamin A doesn't seem to cause any eczema for me.
In fact, milk, eggs, and butter have only improved my skin health. I have been eating 4 egg yolks a day with as much butter as I want, and drinking a quart of milk a day.
I still eat lots of beef. And lots of simple sugars too like honey, sugar syrup, coke, strained fruit juicies (apple or orange), sometimes white chocolate,
What seems to trigger my eczema is certain plant toxins. I haven't found out if it's oxalates, salicylate, soluble fiber, lectins, etc. But I can't eat the following foods without my skin going crazy and feeling poisoned:
Beans, nuts, potatoes, most whole grains, cacoa/dark chocolate, high amounts of any vegetables and fruits.
Notice how most of these foods don't even contain any vitamin A or carotenoids.
According to the vA toxicity theory you could be dumping bile and getting some of it into your blood every time you eat one of those foods you mentioned at the end of your post. They are almost all high in soluble fiber. In such a case the toxins wouldn’t be in the foods you listed but in your body. The only exception being cacao/chocolate which is high in copper which can be toxic in even moderate amounts for some people. A perfectly healthy person shouldn’t react negatively to beans or fruit. I did at one point and went low carb, but it made things worse in the long run.
 

Kray

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You’re very welcome 😊

According to the vA toxicity theory you could be dumping bile and getting some of it into your blood every time you eat one of those foods you mentioned at the end of your post. They are almost all high in soluble fiber. In such a case the toxins wouldn’t be in the foods you listed but in your body. The only exception being cacao/chocolate which is high in copper which can be toxic in even moderate amounts for some people. A perfectly healthy person shouldn’t react negatively to beans or fruit. I did at one point and went low carb, but it made things worse in the long run.
orangebear- very interesting observation.

I am having a really bad eczema flare in the last 2-3 days. Even with all the lowA foods. My bowel function has been minimal. I will be getting psyllium husk powder today and will start that. After reading vinero's post I am thinking bile could be the culprit in my eczema. Any thoughts or helps? Is it possible to get on track with proper elimination and forego the need for such a strict diet? I think vinero raises a good question about vA being the cause- in his case anyway. Prior to starting lowA a week ago, and having an open diet with dairy eggs, etc, my eczema wasn't as bad then as it's been in the last 2-3 days on lowA diet.

I do think beans are a good staple. I probably won't be giving them up, just trading out fiber for a time with psyllium, getting balanced, then hopefully incorporating them regularly into my diet.
 
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Kray

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The diet I used to clear my eczema was:
Lean beef, White rice, Coca-cola/pepsi, some mushrooms or cauliflower as vegetables. This diet reversed my declining health and gave me nice skin again.
But I have discovered I can also eat cheese, eggs, butter, and milk and have clear skin.
In other words, vitamin A doesn't seem to cause any eczema for me.
In fact, milk, eggs, and butter have only improved my skin health. I have been eating 4 egg yolks a day with as much butter as I want, and drinking a quart of milk a day.
I still eat lots of beef. And lots of simple sugars too like honey, sugar syrup, coke, strained fruit juicies (apple or orange), sometimes white chocolate,
What seems to trigger my eczema is certain plant toxins. I haven't found out if it's oxalates, salicylate, soluble fiber, lectins, etc. But I can't eat the following foods without my skin going crazy and feeling poisoned:
Beans, nuts, potatoes, most whole grains, cacoa/dark chocolate, high amounts of any vegetables and fruits.
Notice how most of these foods don't even contain any vitamin A or carotenoids.
Thanks for the feedback. Sorry if you already said, how long were you on lowA diet before you reintroduced dairy and eggs?
 

Kray

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I do wonder if Peat figured this out himself toward the end of his stay in this dimension. Hence the reason he started adding in oats, etc. and testing his theory.

I think detox symptoms can be mistaken for endotoxin symptoms within this community. Someone could introduce soluble fiber, get detox symptoms, call them endotoxin symptoms, stop the soluble fiber and the endotoxin symptoms go away, so the soluble fiber must be bad, right? I and many others are finding that these symptoms are not bad, and indeed are clearing out the poison. I think this will eventually lead to a big shift in the Ray Peat community with the realization that soluble fiber is needed to "take out the trash" like you said.

I think another shift will be that the accumulation of vitamin A and its harmful effects are indeed real. Crumbling of teeth, even with Ray Peat himself and many others in this community, loss of bone density, liver poisoning, detox system shut down, then accumulation of heavy metals like copper, lead, etc leading to premature graying of hair and the other nefarious effects. I and many other people did well in the beginning of Peating, but once the accumulation effects of vitamin A start up after many years, things start to go downhill. Some people cannot handle many years and immediately start to see the bad effects. The liver health someone starts with is probably the reason.

These are all theories I am searching out myself right now. I was very cautious at first going in, taking my time to watch other communities work through it. But I have seen enough now where I have to test it out myself. I tend to lean towards these theories are indeed correct and will catapult this community into incredible health with the knowledge of Peat backing us up.
charlie--What a great post! You are hitting it. I am this story. I am suffering right now but will keep slogging through. I have been "peating" for about 8 years, enough time to agree from personal experience, your insights about the balance of liver health, dietary habits, and time. Also very astute on detox conundrum-- what seems like a curse may be a blessing-- we just may need to push through, albeit a bit more gingerly, realizing it is a transitional stage. I am just beginning reading, starting on LOW-A diet along with extra soluble fiber, and am cautiously optimistic this is right for me.
 

Orion

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@Kray My opinion now is to go very low and slow with fiber, after many experiments being over 4yrs low VA.

It does appear that low VA over time can potentially bring on choline deficiency, which would be detrimental to intestinal lining, especially with VA being excreted. Introducing large amounts of fiber can cause issues later on. You are at the start so fiber might not cause to many issues.

I seem to do best with fruit and tubers right now. Good luck with your journey.
 

Kray

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I don't personally drink it as it messes with my stomach and sleep, but it doesnt have any VA in it.

Coffee seems to be somewhat controversial in the low vA community. I generally don't drink it as much as when I was on RP style foods, but I'll have some a couple times a month. It is a stimulant so I don't believe that it has zero downsides even though it's generally mild.
Thank you both. Haven't given it up, but I have reduced my daily intake from 2-3 cups (leaded and non-leaded combined) to just 1 cup leaded. I tried Dandy Blend, and it's not bad, but it has some things in it I'm not sure about (chicory, dandelion, liquid extract of rye and barley), whether it's a better trade for coffee or not-
 

Kray

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@Kray My opinion now is to go very low and slow with fiber, after many experiments being over 4yrs low VA.

It does appear that low VA over time can potentially bring on choline deficiency, which would be detrimental to intestinal lining, especially with VA being excreted. Introducing large amounts of fiber can cause issues later on. You are at the start so fiber might not cause to many issues.

I seem to do best with fruit and tubers right now. Good luck with your journey.
Thanks Orion, good to know. Sounds like you don't need to supplement fiber, per se (ie psyllium) but rely on fruits/tubers? What tubers do you fancy? Seems if we point too much in one direction there is always a reaction, which is our body telling us "time to shift"-- a good signal. Which is why intuitively many decide to go LOW not NO. Speaking of which, the study below was on a link in my news world today (study itself not new, but when you mentioned CHOLINE I thought of this. Perhaps it was already posted elsewhere on the forum, I don't know).


P.S. Your warning on the fiber issue- was it directly realizing a choline deficiency, or causing too much bowel irritation/elimination? Just so I have better context.
 
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aniciete

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Paul Saladino’s face has aged terribly in the last 4 years, pic on the left is now and pic on right is 4 years ago. He’s gotten noticeably slimmer too and in some of his Insta vids he looks comparable to a crackhead almost.

I saw someone in here mention it’s the sun that aged him probably, but I disagree with that, I feel like it is his diet that is ageing him, maybe it’s all the liver and carotene fruits?

View: https://twitter.com/carnivoremd/status/1620156164515459072?s=46&t=YCNA8-Y3BYvaH7HGw6Uc9Q
 

Apple

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maybe the problem of ggenereux (and peatarians) is psoralens.
Psoralen is a well-known mutagen .
Psoralens are natural products found in plants such as all citrus fruits, carrots, celery, parsley, figs, and cloves , tropical fruits, parsnip.
Psoralens affect your DNA to stop cell growth in one of two ways. One group intercalates, or weaves itself into, DNA strands after your skin is exposed to ultraviolet light. This group includes 5-methoxypsoralen and 8-methoxypsoralen. The second group creates monoadducts, or links, to an individual base -- the cross-pieces inside a DNA strand.
Substantial exposure to psoralen+ultraviolet A dramatically increases the risk of nonmelanoma skin cancer.
Psoralens can make your skin more sensitive to sunlight. They can raise your risk of sunburn, cataracts, and skin cancer, liver injury . And your skin might age faster.
Common side effects include nausea, headache, dizziness, fatigue, depression and erythematous and pruritic skin reactions to UV light. Rare, but potentially severe adverse reactions include increased risk of basal cell carcinoma and melanoma.
 
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Orion

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Thanks Orion, good to know. Sounds like you don't need to supplement fiber, per se (ie psyllium) but rely on fruits/tubers? What tubers do you fancy? Seems if we point too much in one direction there is always a reaction, which is our body telling us "time to shift"-- a good signal. Which is why intuitively many decide to go LOW not NO. Speaking of which, the study below was on a link in my news world today (study itself not new, but when you mentioned CHOLINE I thought of this. Perhaps it was already posted elsewhere on the forum, I don't know).


P.S. Your warning on the fiber issue- was it directly realizing a choline deficiency, or causing too much bowel irritation/elimination? Just so I have better context.
Hey Kray, I occasionally use white potatoes, parsnip, turnip, and celery root.

My thinking that aligns with the choline theory, was that fiber comsumption tended to bring on more and more IBS like symptoms the further along I went. People are reporting alleviating those symptoms with inclusion of eggs, providing large amounts of bio-avail choline. With digestion worsening, it would be harder to uptake choline from meat. "time to shift" is a good way of putting it.

Lots of threads on choline over here:
 

Kray

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maybe the problem of ggenereux (and peatarians) is psoralens.
Psoralen is a well-known mutagen .
Psoralens are natural products found in plants such as all citrus fruits, carrots, celery, parsley, figs, and cloves , tropical fruits, parsnip.
Psoralens affect your DNA to stop cell growth in one of two ways. One group intercalates, or weaves itself into, DNA strands after your skin is exposed to ultraviolet light. This group includes 5-methoxypsoralen and 8-methoxypsoralen. The second group creates monoadducts, or links, to an individual base -- the cross-pieces inside a DNA strand.
Substantial exposure to psoralen+ultraviolet A dramatically increases the risk of nonmelanoma skin cancer.
Psoralens can make your skin more sensitive to sunlight. They can raise your risk of sunburn, cataracts, and skin cancer, liver injury . And your skin might age faster.
Common side effects include nausea, headache, dizziness, fatigue, depression and erythematous and pruritic skin reactions to UV light. Rare, but potentially severe adverse reactions include increased risk of basal cell carcinoma and melanoma.
Never heard of this. Is there any way to mitigate the effects, other than not eating these foods, or having a skin cancer removed?
 

Korven

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Hey Kray, I occasionally use white potatoes, parsnip, turnip, and celery root.

My thinking that aligns with the choline theory, was that fiber comsumption tended to bring on more and more IBS like symptoms the further along I went. People are reporting alleviating those symptoms with inclusion of eggs, providing large amounts of bio-avail choline. With digestion worsening, it would be harder to uptake choline from meat. "time to shift" is a good way of putting it.

Lots of threads on choline over here:

This sounds similar to what I experienced after 3 years as a WFPB vegan. I feel like eating too many legumes/grains and too little animal products (very low choline diet) wrecked my digestion and gave me IBS symptoms.

Do you feel better after including eggs in your diet?
 

Apple

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Never heard of this. Is there any way to mitigate the effects, other than not eating these foods, or having a skin cancer removed?
I just found out about Psoralens and I think it is worthy to mention it here.
Maybe we are fighting here not carotenes but Psoralens ... go figure.
The fact that it makes skin/eyes sensitive to sunlight is pretty scary...I knew there was smth wrong with citrus and carrots and it is not carotenes ( which in fact are protective)
 

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