Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[julcreutz]

You might experience so called detox symptoms. As the body tries to excrete VA serum levels might raise, and you feel worse than before you started going low VA. I'd recommend you stick to it and see where it goes. It's a long process. It took years to reach toxic levels of VA. I'm in my second year doing low VA and I feel like I'm going in the right direction, but I'm still often sluggish and fatigued.

You can blame it on "detox" as long as you want, but when you don't feel good after doing it for 1 year already, I would change it up.

 

[Hermes]

You can blame it on "detox" as long as you want, but when you don't feel good after doing it for 1 year already, I would change it up.

Well, I wouldn't know what to do then. Anyway, in January of 2019 I took an interest in VA and got it tested, it looked rather high to me: 3.1 μmol/l. And then decided to give it a shot. In September 2019 I tested again: 4.14 μmol/l. Obviously serum levels increased as the body tries to excrete VA. It's a bumpy road for sure. Now in July 2020 serum VA levels are at 3.12 μmol/l. Where I left off. The low VA diet is definitely not a quick fix. But hey, everyone is free to try what they believe in. I've found Grant's story very inspirational and surmise he's on to something.

 

[Korven]

Well, I wouldn't know what to do then. Anyway, in January of 2019 I took an interest in VA and got it tested, it looked rather high to me: 3.1 μmol/l. And then decided to give it a shot. In September 2019 I tested again: 4.14 μmol/l. Obviously serum levels increased as the body tries to excrete VA. It's a bumpy road for sure. Now in July 2020 serum VA levels are at 3.12 μmol/l. Where I left off. The low VA diet is definitely not a quick fix. But hey, everyone is free to try what they believe in. I've found Grant's story very inspirational and surmise he's on to something.

Thanks for sharing, very interesting. It certainly looks like the vitamin A detox is a real thing, and that there isn't much you can do about it besides more "time under low VA".

If you don't mind sharing, what changes have you noticed that indicate you're heading in the right direction? If your levels are starting to trend downwards again then healing should be happening faster, hopefully :)

 

[Hermes]

Thanks for sharing, very interesting. It certainly looks like the vitamin A detox is a real thing, and that there isn't much you can do about it besides more "time under low VA".

You're welcome. Yeah, it seems like you just have to wait it out. I try different things to increase wellbeing, like pregnenolone, topical B-vitamins and also Haidut's Cardenosine seems to help with sleep. Anyway, considering that I'm still dependent on such supplements suggests that it will take some more time to deplete VA. Also, the measured vitamin A stores seem to be rather high. In regards to speeding up the process of depletion, Grant linked to a forum thread on his site: Activated charcoal comparison with cholestyramine Both activated charcoal and cholestyramine are mentioned. Someone seems to have had great success with charcoal: Activated Charcoal really works! The mother gave her son low dose ACV with breakfast and lunch, and within two weeks she notices improved social behavior. He was prescribed drugs for ADHD and depression. Not sure what to make of it. ACV also binds to endotoxin. But maybe skyrocketing diagnoses of all sorts of mental diseases is also linked with VA? Who knows.

If you don't mind sharing, what changes have you noticed that indicate you're heading in the right direction? If your levels are starting to trend downwards again then healing should be happening faster, hopefully :)

Hm, good question. To begin with, it's very subtle and nothing too obvious in my case. I didn't have any skin issues to begin with or other obvious physical ailment. It's a gut feeling that I'm heading in the right direction b/c of increased calmness and improved mental clarity. It's mostly mental: I seem to have my ***t more together, less all over the place, enjoy social settings more but still find them unnaturally tiresome (well, I'm an introvert, I guess I'll never be energized by them). I have quite a history with SSRI's. For more than ten years I was on and off prozac. Later I had mirtazapine for three years in total. Sometimes I wish I could turn back the wheel of time but that's just a childish fantasy.

Some have mentioned though instead of getting older, they get younger as the continue with their low vitamin A diet.

One thing that struck me: Grant mentioned in his five year update, that his handwriting got more stylish. Mine got crappy and difficult to read when I was 17. In grade school I prided myself in writing elegantly. I wonder if someone else's handwriting improved over the course of a low VA diet.

 

[Orion]

@Hermes @Korven I have the same take away, it is time under low VA that gets results, I am 2 months away from 2 years. In the starting months as you switch from VA inflow to VA outflow, and the storage VA esters are released from tissue/liver and converted to retinoic acid, all the nasty excretion/detox events pile up. For me now its just steady progress, and hoping the bottle necks are open (b vitamins, taurine, molybdenum, soluble fiber, sunshine, etc..). My number one issue was skin quality, and I see this improve month to month still.

My history of high dose: CLO, retinyl palmitate, dairy, liver, eggs and accutane icing, has me thinking that I am about half way. Feeling great now, so the experiment continues.

 

[Mito]

My history of high dose: CLO, retinyl palmitate, dairy, liver, eggs and accutane icing, has me thinking that I am about half way. Feeling great now, so the experiment continues.

Is your diet similar to Grant’s diet of rice, black beans, and bison?

 

[Blossom]

Well, I wouldn't know what to do then. Anyway, in January of 2019 I took an interest in VA and got it tested, it looked rather high to me: 3.1 μmol/l. And then decided to give it a shot. In September 2019 I tested again: 4.14 μmol/l. Obviously serum levels increased as the body tries to excrete VA. It's a bumpy road for sure. Now in July 2020 serum VA levels are at 3.12 μmol/l. Where I left off. The low VA diet is definitely not a quick fix. But hey, everyone is free to try what they believe in. I've found Grant's story very inspirational and surmise he's on to something.

Wow, mine went down fairly quickly. It must vary quite a bit.

 

[Hermes]

@Orion Congratulations to the determination to stick with it. Usually, I'm very satisfied eating this way and I hardly have any cravings. The most difficult part I find in social settings when I'm most likely to compromise. When being invited for dinner, let's say. I really don't like explaining myself. Also, in restaurants, it might pose some challenges. That's mostly on weekends. On the other hand, this purely functional perspective on food can get annoying. Food can just be a fun, pleasurable experience. With adhering to a fairly strict diet I reduce food to nutrition. I feel bad for the chef in a restaurant who puts effort into making some original creation, and I'm so picky and leave aside anything that's not low VA. Sometimes I'm also wondering if I'm eating too much meat. So many people I know choose a vegetarian lifestyle.

Didn't know that the body transforms VA to retinoic acid to excrete it. I'm currently reading Grant's second book. Maybe one-fourth of it I've read. Such a great story. It feels like a detective novel with these unexpected turns. Sometimes stuff flies over my head. Also, I enjoyed Grant's appearance in the Quaxpodcast. He seems very down to earth and good at explaining things. Also, you learn a little about how he came about the idea to exclude VA from his diet. A no-frills approach.

Do you know of any way to supplement with taurine topically? The sulfur doesn't agree with me very much. Same with b-vitamins which I supplement topically.

 

[Orion]

Is your diet similar to Grant’s diet of rice, black beans, and bison?

Similar, but not as strict. Lean beef, lima/black/black eyed beans, rice, potato, sprouted wheat breads, some low VA fruits

 

[Orion]

@Orion Congratulations to the determination to stick with it. Usually, I'm very satisfied eating this way and I hardly have any cravings. The most difficult part I find in social settings when I'm most likely to compromise. When being invited for dinner, let's say. I really don't like explaining myself. Also, in restaurants, it might pose some challenges. That's mostly on weekends. On the other hand, this purely functional perspective on food can get annoying. Food can just be a fun, pleasurable experience. With adhering to a fairly strict diet I reduce food to nutrition. I feel bad for the chef in a restaurant who puts effort into making some original creation, and I'm so picky and leave aside anything that's not low VA. Sometimes I'm also wondering if I'm eating too much meat. So many people I know choose a vegetarian lifestyle.

Didn't know that the body transforms VA to retinoic acid to excrete it. I'm currently reading Grant's second book. Maybe one-fourth of it I've read. Such a great story. It feels like a detective novel with these unexpected turns. Sometimes stuff flies over my head. Also, I enjoyed Grant's appearance in the Quaxpodcast. He seems very down to earth and good at explaining things. Also, you learn a little about how he came about the idea to exclude VA from his diet. A no-frills approach.

Do you know of any way to supplement with taurine topically? The sulfur doesn't agree with me very much. Same with b-vitamins which I supplement topically.

I usually stick with burger and fries, steak and potato at restaurants, and some cheat meals with family or friends probably good for the mental part. I usually just say I am allergic to dairy, that covers most all animal VA right there.

Taurine is part of the transformation of VA to retinoic acids, so it is important, not aware if it is suitable to take topically, but if you are eating meat, you should be ok not to supplement it.

 

[Recoen]

Looking at my recent ION panel, both retinol and beta carotene were low. Would the low vit A crowd say that’s because it’s in storage and I need to eat even less vit A/ bets carotene containing foods? Five days a week I eat ~2eggs, ~3tbsp butter, ~2cups Greek yogurt, one carrot, ~2cups oj, ~1oz liverwurst, and ~4oz gruyere cheese. And the other 2 days just the Oj and carrot sources.
My amino acids were very low on my ION except for taurine- all makes sense because I was clearly B6 deficient and I was using protein for glucose. I bring this up because the three seem to be tied.

And if anyone has any insights on my measles question above, I would appreciate it!

 

[Hermes]

I usually stick with burger and fries, steak and potato at restaurants, and some cheat meals with family or friends probably good for the mental part. I usually just say I am allergic to dairy, that covers most all animal VA right there.

That's a good why to put it. I'll probably be allergic to dairy as well, when I'll need an excuse time. Thanks for the idea.

Taurine is part of the transformation of VA to retinoic acids, so it is important, not aware if it is suitable to take topically, but if you are eating meat, you should be ok not to supplement it.

Yeah, I eat quite a lot of meat. Maybe I'll try taurine once again, when gut dysbiosis is improved, to see if additional supplementation is helpful.

 

[Hermes]

Wow, mine went down fairly quickly. It must vary quite a bit.

Yeah. Let's see how it continues. Maybe there is a tipping point where suddenly things go quickly and then flatten out again, once the majority of VA is depleted. Don't know at which year mark Grant reached almost zero VA but not zero. And now he's trying to squeeze out every last molecule possible. And that seems to take time. I'm thinking Pareto principle.

 

[Orion]

Five days a week I eat ~2eggs, ~3tbsp butter, ~2cups Greek yogurt, one carrot, ~2cups oj, ~1oz liverwurst, and ~4oz gruyere cheese.

Added those foods to chronometer, I would suspect that you are not deficient eating 500% the RDA of VA for 5 of the days of the week. Is ION a serum blood test?

 

[postman]

@Lollipop2 except it isn't actually what's happening. He hasn't written anywhere that he only eats that many calories, and often writes eating many more. The truth of the matter is just that no, his hormones aren't dropping, his metabolic rate isn't slowing down, he isn't nearing xerophthalmia. He's obviously healthy, especially compared to people his age. Peat just got this wrong.

I hope everyone realizes that he can bench press 225lbs, which you can't do as a fully grown man eating 1300 calories a day regardless of how low your metabolism is.

I’m going to reluctantly retract my statement about Grant writing at one point that he was eating in the 1200-1300 calorie range. I’m certain I read it because another member and I discussed it via email but when I went back to the blog post and it now says “slightly less calories” rather than the above range. I’m pretty sure a grown man would have a hard time thriving long term on that amount regardless. I’m thrilled he is doing well and hope he continues to do so. Reading his books, quitting vitamin A supplements, reducing dietary Vitamin A and eliminating beta carotene altogether has been life changing for me.

Well now I'm curious as to what he actually does eat lol. Someone said around 3,000 cal, but you're saying that might be a bit lower now?

He eats 2400 kcal/day. Some days more, some days a bit less. That's what his reply to my question was.

Actually he did just now again claim to eat about 1500 calories per day.

Grant's new post: Six-Year Update - Page 3
Grant's new post: Six-Year Update - Page 2

I don’t track or limit how many calories I eat. I just eat as much as a need. But, a few years ago I started needing a lot less food per day. When I first started on this diet I was probably eating around 3,000 cals/day, now it’s closer to 1,500. I know someone else who has reported the same effect, they too now just need a lot less food per day.

 

[AK18]

Actually he did just now again claim to eat about 1500 calories per day.

Grant's new post: Six-Year Update - Page 3
Grant's new post: Six-Year Update - Page 2

I stand corrected.

 

[Blossom]

Actually he did just now again claim to eat about 1500 calories per day.

Thank you.

 

[Recoen]

Added those foods to chronometer, I would suspect that you are not deficient eating 500% the RDA of VA for 5 of the days of the week. Is ION a serum blood test?

Thank you! Yes that part of the ION was serum. There’s also an OAT with it too.

I have noticed my seb derm has been flaring more. I’ll try reducing to just the rda for a few weeks to see if that is the reason for it. Then again there are threads on here that say not enough fat solubles are the reason for it.

My concern is the Ca:P. Has anyone used the NOW or nutricost brand Ca carbonate? Or pure encapsulation mcha? Or any better form of Ca? I didn’t respond well to egg shells.

 

[Hermes]

He probably didn't track the food he ate before this.

What could it mean, that he eats rather little compared to when he started out?

 

[mmb82]

Thank you! Yes that part of the ION was serum. There’s also an OAT with it too.

I have noticed my seb derm has been flaring more. I’ll try reducing to just the rda for a few weeks to see if that is the reason for it. Then again there are threads on here that say not enough fat solubles are the reason for it.

My concern is the Ca:P. Has anyone used the NOW or nutricost brand Ca carbonate? Or pure encapsulation mcha? Or any better form of Ca? I didn’t respond well to egg shells.

For what it's worth, I have been doing low vA for about 18-19 months and low calcium has not been an issue despite that I am not eating dairy and getting only about 500 mg of calcium daily (on average). I say that with some confidence, as my PTH is "maximally suppressed" according to Chris Masterjohn's Testing Nutritional Status "Cheat Sheet". My PTH measured 18 pg/mL on a lab scale of 15-65 pg/mL two months ago. Masterjohn says:

"Calcium and vitamin D suppress PTH, while phosphorus raises it. If PTH is maximally suppressed, the body perceives calcium and vitamin D as adequate and does not perceive any crisis of excess phosphorus. The point of maximal suppression appears to be approximately halfway through the normal range (around 30 pg/mL) and may be as low as 20 pg/mL."

Interestingly, my vD was slightly below the lowest lab ranges and I have been fighting to keep raising it through tanning. My vA still hovers near the upper lab ranges, meaning it barely lowered over 18-19 months of virtually zero vA.