Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

julcreutz

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Those are all symptoms of elevated levels of retinoic acid. You started to detox vA and felt worse. Also, if you weren't eating a fairly normal and balanced diet (very common here) then your symptoms could also be caused or exacerbated by factors other than vA.

Can you send me any proof that these symptoms are caused by elevated levels of retinoic acid? All I can say is that since incorporating large amounts of liver again, I've had much more energy, great sleep, smoother and thicker hair and my skin is better, and I also tolerate carbohydrates better.
 

Hermes

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There is nothing wrong with liver. Isn't this at least the Ray Peat forum? Ray is an old man who is still sharp as a tack, writes newsletters after newsletters and remembers studies decades ago in great detail. Certainly no brain fog there. The ideas he presents aren't theoretical. It's working for him. Now, what this means in a grander picture, I don't know. I'll continue to stick to a low vitamin A diet. As conflicting as it sounds. And isn't Danny Roddy also doing great?! And many others too.
 

Recoen

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Those are all symptoms of elevated levels of retinoic acid. You started to detox vA and felt worse. Also, if you weren't eating a fairly normal and balanced diet (very common here) then your symptoms could also be caused or exacerbated by factors other than vA.
What do you consider normal and balanced for diet?
 

ursidae

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What do you consider normal and balanced for diet?
Honestly the peat version of the diet that incorporates safe starches is not alien at all
rice, potatoes, masa harina, root veggies, some fruit, fruit like veg, greens broth, ruminant meat, lean fish, shellfish, coconut, gummy bears, chocolate, cheese, milk, butter-nothing crazy about this, eggs and oysters will provide pufa if it’s truly essential
If you cover all your RDI’d how is this imbalanced?
Nuts and legumes are not something I see normal people eat a lot of. Only those who are trying extra hard to be healthy I see choking down broccoli and raw veg
 
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He’s basically the anti peat, low metabolic rate, low cholesterol, low heart rate, while peat wants to speed things up as much as possible, stating a heart rate of 90 resting is ideal. I guess it’s now an opinion on whether or not you believe that a slower system lives longer or not, I agree with peat cause I felt horrible when my heart rate was as low as 60s, but some people believe intentionally slowing the system down Extends life
Same here. I feel best when my hr is around 70. Often it’s in the low 50-s - then I feel terrible - slugish and grumpy,
 
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With the other poster saying that their PTH is on the low end, 18, is absolutely remarkable . Since pth is everything Ray peat stands for essentially, which means calcium is not being pulled out of the bones and put into soft tissue . It also means that the calcium to phosphate ratio is good . And if peoples hormones are normal and their testosterone levels are normal, with cholesterol levels at perfect numbers 150- 170, that means there is no downside to vitamin A elimination. I think these things are key to understanding if this is healthy or not. We are here as a Ray peat followers, but didn't quite see the results we would expect. Then we read Grants work, something Sparks in us we try it, and see extraordinary results within a short period. The next step is to see whether or not our blood work is good. Then we find out that our cholesterol levels have slashed in half, blood pressure is better, skin is better, eyesight is better. The next thing we need to know is if all the markers Ray Peat is interested in, like pth, total T3, warm hands and nose. If Those things are excellent then we are all good. The speculation is Ray uses all of his Vitamin A up because he takes thyroid, and uses calcium to buffer the acidity of vitamin A.

Ray Peat is not all about PTH, and Genereux is mistaken. The position that VA is a poison is indeed Flat - Urth stuff. I disagree with Peat on many things, but Genereux is not the answer for anyone lol.
 
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https://scholar.google.de/scholar?c...&hl=de&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=xRX66tXyYy8J

Vitamin A improves the symptoms of autism spectrum disorders and decreases 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT): A pilot study.
M Guo, J Zhu, T Yang, X Lai, X Liu, J Liu, J Chen, T Li
Brain research bulletin 137, 35, 2018
Autism spectrum disorders (ASD) are complicated neurodevelopmental disorders. Many studies have demonstrated that children with autism have multiple nutritional deficiencies and increased serum 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) levels. In our previous study, 77.9% of autistic children were found to have vitamin A deficiency, and the concentration of vitamin A was negatively associated with the CARS score. In the present study, we sought to test whether vitamin A supplementation could improve autistic symptoms and decrease serum 5-HT levels. The DSM-V criteria and CARS score were used for symptom description and symptom assessment of the patients, respectively, before and after vitamin A supplementation (VAS). Serum retinol and 5-HT levels, mRNA levels of RAR α, β, and γ and TpH 1 expression were detected in autistic children before and after VAS and in normal children. Serum retinol levels in children with ASD were significantly lower than in control children. Serum 5-HT levels in children with ASD were higher than in control children, which were correlated with symptom severity of children with autism. After VA supplementation, the children with ASD exhibited significant improvement in autism symptoms. Serum retinol concentrations of children with ASD were significantly increased, and serum 5-HT levels were decreased. Moreover, statistically significant changes were observed in mRNA expression levels of RAR α, RAR γ and TpH 1 after VAS compared to baseline. This study suggested that VA supplementation may improve symptoms and reduce 5-HT levels in children with ASD, indicating that VA supplementation is a reasonable therapy at least for a subset of children with autism.
 
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Vitamin A deficiency increases the risk of gastrointestinal comorbidity and exacerbates core symptoms in children with autism spectrum disorder
Boli Cheng, Jiang Zhu, Ting Yang, Min Guo, Xi Lai, Qiu Li, Jie Chen, Tingyu Li
Pediatric Research, 1-6, 2020
Background
Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a neurodevelopmental disorder, and many individuals with ASD have gastrointestinal (GI) comorbidities. Vitamin A (VA) is an essential micronutrient that plays an important role in brain development and GI function.
Methods
A total of 323 children with ASD and 180 control children were enrolled in this study. Symptoms of ASD were assessed with the Child Autism Rating Scale (CARS), the Social Responsiveness Scale (SRS), and the Autism Behavior Checklist (ABC). Caregivers of the children completed questionnaires about GI symptoms. Serum retinol levels were detected with high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC).
Results
Children with ASD and with GI comorbidity and constipation had considerably lower serum VA levels than autistic children without these symptoms. VA level was associated with CARS, SRS, and ABC scores, whereas GI symptoms were associated some SRS and ABC scores. The interaction of VAD and GI symptoms appeared to aggravate some of the core symptoms of children with ASD.
Conclusions
VAD exacerbates core symptoms in children with ASD, and ASD children with GI comorbidities also have more serious core symptoms than ASD children without GI comorbidities. VAD comorbid with GI symptoms aggravates autistic children’s core symptoms.
 
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Vitamin A deficiency exacerbates autism-like behaviors and abnormalities of the enteric nervous system in a valproic acid-induced rat model of autism.
B Cheng, J Zhu, T Yang, S Wang, H Liu, Q Wu, X Zhang, J Chen, T Li
Neurotoxicology, 2020
The manifestations of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) are highly heterogeneous. As many individuals with ASD have gastrointestinal (GI) comorbidities, ASD with GI problems is considered to be a subtype of ASD. Vitamin A (VA) plays an important role in the development of both the central and peripheral nervous system. However, the relationship between VA deficiency (VAD) and ASD with GI comorbidities is still unclear. We established rat models with different VA levels based on the valproic acid-induced autism model. Compared to autism model rats with VA normal (VAN), autism model rats with gestational VAD showed more severe autism-like behavior, increased GI transit time, and impairment of the enteric nervous system (ENS). Besides, the expression levels of retinoic acid receptor α (RARα) and Ret in autism model rats with VAD were decreased compared with those in rats with VAN. Supplementation with VA was found to effectively ameliorate autism-like behaviors and impairments of GI motility and the ENS in autism model rats with VAD. Chromatin immunoprecipitation results suggested that RARa can bind to the promoter region of the Ret gene and regulate the Ret signaling pathway. We speculate that VAD in autism might lead to impairments of both the brain and ENS. VAD might be a factor that causes individuals to be more susceptible to ASD-related risk factors and aggravates a subtype of ASD with GI comorbidities.
 

tallglass13

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Ray Peat is not all about PTH, and Genereux is mistaken. The position that VA is a poison is indeed Flat - Urth stuff. I disagree with Peat on many things, but Genereux is not the answer for anyone lol.
I disagree Tristan, Ray talks much about PTH and the importance of keeping it low. If you don't think Ray is about Calcium , PTH, I just don't what you think of Peat's rec's then.
ALso, Peat has said many times how bad excess carotene is . I working from work , so I cant link the YouTube clip, but its the carotene clip obviously. He said it made him Hypothyroid. Then Peat talked how he used Vit A for his leukoplakia, but after that , every time he used it caused him severe migraines.
 
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I disagree Tristan, Ray talks much about PTH and the importance of keeping it low. If you don't think Ray is about Calcium , PTH, I just don't what you think of Peat's rec's then.
ALso, Peat has said many times how bad excess carotene is . I working from work , so I cant link the YouTube clip, but its the carotene clip obviously. He said it made him Hypothyroid. Then Peat talked how he used Vit A for his leukoplakia, but after that , every time he used it caused him severe migraines.

Carotenes are indeed bad because they are not VA proper, and have putative antagonistic receptor binding on various VA targets, thus disabling correct VA - signalling. I agree on Peat's stance on importance of PTH - control, and lowering of Ca activity by supplying sufficient Ca intake, but i do not believe that the connection with VA is viable or real, insofar as to say that VA is unphysiologic because it can raise PTH. And if Peat takes VA ( Retinol ) for leukoplakia, he consumes large, very high pharmacological amounts of it. That it then causes migraines ( increased cerebral pressure? ) is to be expected.
 

Lollipop2

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Honestly the peat version of the diet that incorporates safe starches is not alien at all
rice, potatoes, masa harina, root veggies, some fruit, fruit like veg, greens broth, ruminant meat, lean fish, shellfish, coconut, gummy bears, chocolate, cheese, milk, butter-nothing crazy about this, eggs and oysters will provide pufa if it’s truly essential
If you cover all your RDI’d how is this imbalanced?
Nuts and legumes are not something I see normal people eat a lot of. Only those who are trying extra hard to be healthy I see choking down broccoli and raw veg
+1
 

tallglass13

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Carotenes are indeed bad because they are not VA proper, and have putative antagonistic receptor binding on various VA targets, thus disabling correct VA - signalling. I agree on Peat's stance on importance of PTH - control, and lowering of Ca activity by supplying sufficient Ca intake, but i do not believe that the connection with VA is viable or real, insofar as to say that VA is unphysiologic because it can raise PTH. And if Peat takes VA ( Retinol ) for leukoplakia, he consumes large, very high pharmacological amounts of it. That it then causes migraines ( increased cerebral pressure? ) is to be expected.
Yes, I do see your point of view. However, PTH would rise with high VA intake to use calcium to buffer the "acidity" of VA, unless the diet contains copious amounts of calcium in the form of milk or eggshells recommended by Ray.
I does indeed seem "wild, or crazy" to call Vit A a toxin. I think Grants works has some good evidence, as well as anecdotal evidence by him and the many members of his and this forum. Again, to be able to lower cholesterol 100 points by eating red meat is more that remarkable. To clear eczema without meds and by avoiding VA is a magic feat. The sinister fortification of food, and now a law passed to where the manufacturer does not have list VA> Does not have to? If its a vitamin, wouldn't they WANT to. To be granted the power to not list VA or GMO is very suspicious.
My eyesight is clearer with low VA diet, and once I add eggs , or other high VA , gets blurry and eczema flares. My thinking gets sharper on low VA>
 

Maljam

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I disagree Tristan, Ray talks much about PTH and the importance of keeping it low. If you don't think Ray is about Calcium , PTH, I just don't what you think of Peat's rec's then.
ALso, Peat has said many times how bad excess carotene is . I working from work , so I cant link the YouTube clip, but its the carotene clip obviously. He said it made him Hypothyroid. Then Peat talked how he used Vit A for his leukoplakia, but after that , every time he used it caused him severe migraines.

He talks of the negative effects of things like beta carotene for example in carrot. Ray is very positive of vitamin A though, look how much he recommends liver, the most vitamin a dense food there is. The migraine thing, in my opinion, was more of a caution against the quality of supplements than excess vitamin A.

"I read the anti-vitamin A book, and found no evidence in it to support his ideas"

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository
 
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Recoen

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Do you all find your vitamin D - 25D and 1,25D- is low on a low vitamin A diet? I ask because of the 5:1 A : D recommendation. Do many have an aversion to sunlight? Or do you “crave” the sun more because of the components made from UVB and cholesterol that interact with the RXRs?
 
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tallglass13

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He talks of the negative effects of things like beta carotene for example in carrot. Ray is very positive of vitamin A though, look how much he recommends liver, the most vitamin a dense food there is. The migraine thing, in my opinion, was more of a caution against the quality of supplements than excess vitamin A.

"I read the anti-vitamin A book, and found no evidence in it to support his ideas"

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository
Yes, and I agree with your statement as well. However, I disagree with Ray that there is no evidence, but I am only a medic, and not a scientist. I mean, the whole point of Grants book is him showing evidence of the caustic value of VA. Of course there is a whole but of correlation as well, which may not be considered as evidence.
I still do rely and respect Ray to the fullest. But if I can take my health a step further, I am willing to try. I have not done bloods yet while being low VA>The people that have , have only shown huge improvements. How can that be? While still eating lots of red meat and fruits, but omitting the high VA foods.
My next guess is that the thyroid better be is tip top shape to handle VA.
 

tallglass13

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Do you all find your vitamin D - 25D and 1,25D- is low on a low vitamin A diet? I ask because of the 5:1 A:D recommendation. Do many have an aversion to sunlight? Or do you “crave” the sun more because of the components made from UVB and cholesterol that interact with the RXRs?
That is what I have been attempting to do. Potatoes, bananas (cooked most time), apples cooked, juice, egg shell, scallops, lobster, red meat. However, egg shell may not be necessary if my PTH is low normal. I will do bloods in a month.
 

tallglass13

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It would be really neat if we can get Ray to elaborate and explain the positive outcomes with lower VA in the diet by several individuals.
 

Maljam

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Yes, and I agree with your statement as well. However, I disagree with Ray that there is no evidence, but I am only a medic, and not a scientist. I mean, the whole point of Grants book is him showing evidence of the caustic value of VA. Of course there is a whole but of correlation as well, which may not be considered as evidence.
I still do rely and respect Ray to the fullest. But if I can take my health a step further, I am willing to try. I have not done bloods yet while being low VA>The people that have , have only shown huge improvements. How can that be? While still eating lots of red meat and fruits, but omitting the high VA foods.
My next guess is that the thyroid better be is tip top shape to handle VA.

I have wondered before if it is an excess of A in relation to a deficiency of D that is causing the problem and removing the A is just masking the problem rather than correcting an imbalance. If vitamin a excess issues is a modern problem too I would argue this lends more weight to the vitamin D imbalance theory as how widespread D deficiency is.

Also things such as eggs seem particularly difficult to digest for many people, so the benefits may just be the long term avoidance of irritable foods.

It just doesn't make sense to me to drive something like vitamin A into the ground to deficiency levels, as part of the theory that is being present by Grant and others, in my opinion something is missing with the thought process. Which leads me to the conclusion that the removal of A is simply removing a piece of a bigger picture and focusing on a small area of it. Again though admittedly I don't know this for definite.
 
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Recoen

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Given his recent update and some of the questions in this thread, I reached out to Grant and asked if he would be open to another interview as its been about a year since our last and there are definitely some updates since last year.

What questions do you guys have for him? I will do my best to ask.
Will you please also ask him if vitamin A issues (and any fat soluble ones really) more have to do with glucuronidation problems in the liver/ git? This would be my first thought given how important glucuronidation is for excretion and clearly many are struggling with estrogen problems too. If the theory is correct then a low vitamin A diet is comparable to a keto diet for those who have T2D.
 

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