Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[tim333]

Youtube video I've made on subclinical Hypervitaminosis A.

 

[Amazoniac]

Intermediate reactions that are rarely mentioned:

- Retinal dehydrogenase - Wikipedia (poisonal to poisonoic acid)

"The proposed mechanism of retinal dehydrogenase begins with a key cysteine residue in the active site attacking the aldehyde group in retinal to form a thiohemiacetal intermediate.[3] Then, a hydride shift is facilitated by the enzyme to form NADH and a thioester intermediate. This hydride shift has been shown to be stereospecific in a subset (class 3) of retinal dehydrogenases.[8] The thioester intermediate is then attacked by a water molecule, which is made more nucleophilic by a glutamate residue that lies near the active site.[9] There has been some debate as to whether the glutamate residue near the active site acts as a general base during the reaction or whether it is more limited and merely deprotonates the catalytic cysteine to make the cysteine more nucleophilic.[9] Kinetic studies have supported this mechanism by showing that the reaction follows an ordered sequential path with NAD+ binding first which is followed by the binding of retinal, the catalytic breakdown of retinal to retinoic acid, the release of retinoic acid, and finally the release of NADH.[10]"

Spoiler

The antagonism happens in the intestine? If not, why can't we expect antagonism when consumed separately?

It's not that we can't, just pointing out that differences are expected.

Here they suggest that poisonol is more antagonistic on killciol uptake than the opposite:
- What Are Your Best Fat Soluble Vitamins Combinations From Personal Experience?

If the consumption of poisonoids is low, they have to be mobilized to maintain the toxins balanced. The second figure below reinforces that it's not just on uptake (as long as it wasn't from sunlight degradation):
- Anti-Peat - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity (first and last rows of same color)

There are also the odservations of their concentrations and markers changing according to the intake of the other.

 

[tim333]

If the consumption of poisonoids is low, they have to be mobilized to maintain the toxins balanced.

hahaha comedy gold

 

[postman]

Eating a VA deficient diet gives me chest pains and makes me feel weak. It also improves my memory, my vision incl. in the dark, my learning ability, my energy levels, my hearing, my mood, my hairline, and a thousand other things. But I can't stick to it if I get chest pains to the point where I feel like I have to lie down. I think I have a weak heart, there are some other recommendatioms here that also give me chest pains, like aspirin for example.

I feel like maybe I have too much retinol in some parts of my body and not enough in other parts. I don't know. Both the positive and the negative results get stronger over time, so it isn't a "hold out in the beginning" kind of thing. I'm fairly certain retinol is the factor regarding the chest pain but I haven't tried a retinol supplement challenge, instead I've tried foods with retinol. However I have tried a retinol supplement regarding all the negative effects so I know with 100% certainty that it causes all manner of bad things and inflammation in my body.

It took me a long time until I figured out what I need to reliably react well to calcium. Both K1, and K2, and a low iron intake. I need all of those things or else calcium just gives me excitotoxic misery. Maybe it's the same with retinol, I need something else for it to work properly. Maybe just a higher thyroid function but I doubt it becuase even when I was taking t3 and had better thyroid function, high retinol foods still gave me trouble. Mixed tocopherols seem to have made me slightly less sensitive to retinol but it's not nearly enough.

 

[MarcelZD]

I feel like maybe I have too much retinol in some parts of my body and not enough in other parts. I don't know. Both the positive and the negative results get stronger over time, so it isn't a "hold out in the beginning" kind of thing.

This is something I have been considering as well. Is it possible that you have something affecting your body that impedes optimal elimination of VA? The liver and the gall bladder come to mind (VA deficiency can quickly induced by surgically removing the gall bladder). I think for me that might be the source of all problems - though I have definitely overdone the vitamin A in the past.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Does Vitamin A deplete EFAs?
Anyone know? i read parts of this threat,but its Yuuge..
Got dry Body-skin from consumption of Hi-Dose Retinol,
and am interested in the workings behind it.I read all the basics and a lot
of studies,but Retinol is complicated to say the least + cant remeber.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Liposomes as delivery systems for carotenoids: comparative studies of loading ability, storage stability and in vitro release

"[..]the incorporation of carotenoids can affect the membrane fluidity,[11] permeability,[12] micropolarity,[11] lipid peroxidation[13] and thermotropic phase behavior.[14] Furthermore, carotenoids have contrasting effects on the membrane properties, owing to their various chemical structures. One general conclusion is that carotenoids having oxygen-containing groups in the ionone rings (xanthophylls) can exert rigidifying effects on the membrane fluidity, whereas the effects of carotenoids having only carbon and hydrogen atoms (carotenes) are negligible or opposite.[15] With these points taken into consideration, we can simply speculate that the inserting ability of carotenoids and their diffusion inside the lipid bilayer are highly dependent upon the type of incorporated carotenoids."​

- carotenoids orientation membrane lipid | Google Images


The number of identified toxins keeps growing on every new publication, there's a database for them:
- Carotenoids Database

 

[S.Seneff]

Pe

Eating a VA deficient diet gives me chest pains and makes me feel weak. It also improves my memory, my vision incl. in the dark, my learning ability, my energy levels, my hearing, my mood, my hairline, and a thousand other things. But I can't stick to it if I get chest pains to the point where I feel like I have to lie down. I think I have a weak heart, there are some other recommendatioms here that also give me chest pains, like aspirin for example.

I feel like maybe I have too much retinol in some parts of my body and not enough in other parts. I don't know. Both the positive and the negative results get stronger over time, so it isn't a "hold out in the beginning" kind of thing. I'm fairly certain retinol is the factor regarding the chest pain but I haven't tried a retinol supplement challenge, instead I've tried foods with retinol. However I have tried a retinol supplement regarding all the negative effects so I know with 100% certainty that it causes all manner of bad things and inflammation in my body.

It took me a long time until I figured out what I need to reliably react well to calcium. Both K1, and K2, and a low iron intake. I need all of those things or else calcium just gives me excitotoxic misery. Maybe it's the same with retinol, I need something else for it to work properly. Maybe just a higher thyroid function but I doubt it becuase even when I was taking t3 and had better thyroid function, high retinol foods still gave me trouble. Mixed tocopherols seem to have made me slightly less sensitive to retinol but it's not nearly enough.

Perhaps by suppressing VA, you get VD overdose, and so you get magnesium deficiency symptoms.
Also, there is more protective vitamin e in natural raised animals than in feedlotebeef, which is needed to protect double bond.

 

[postman]

Eating a VA deficient diet gives me chest pains and makes me feel weak. It also improves my memory, my vision incl. in the dark, my learning ability, my energy levels, my hearing, my mood, my hairline, and a thousand other things. But I can't stick to it if I get chest pains to the point where I feel like I have to lie down. I think I have a weak heart, there are some other recommendatioms here that also give me chest pains, like aspirin for example.

I feel like maybe I have too much retinol in some parts of my body and not enough in other parts. I don't know. Both the positive and the negative results get stronger over time, so it isn't a "hold out in the beginning" kind of thing. I'm fairly certain retinol is the factor regarding the chest pain but I haven't tried a retinol supplement challenge, instead I've tried foods with retinol. However I have tried a retinol supplement regarding all the negative effects so I know with 100% certainty that it causes all manner of bad things and inflammation in my body.

It took me a long time until I figured out what I need to reliably react well to calcium. Both K1, and K2, and a low iron intake. I need all of those things or else calcium just gives me excitotoxic misery. Maybe it's the same with retinol, I need something else for it to work properly. Maybe just a higher thyroid function but I doubt it becuase even when I was taking t3 and had better thyroid function, high retinol foods still gave me trouble. Mixed tocopherols seem to have made me slightly less sensitive to retinol but it's not nearly enough.

This is something I have been considering as well. Is it possible that you have something affecting your body that impedes optimal elimination of VA? The liver and the gall bladder come to mind (VA deficiency can quickly induced by surgically removing the gall bladder). I think for me that might be the source of all problems - though I have definitely overdone the vitamin A in the past.

Pe

Perhaps by suppressing VA, you get VD overdose, and so you get magnesium deficiency symptoms.
Also, there is more protective vitamin e in natural raised animals than in feedlotebeef, which is needed to protect double bond.

To be honest I think those negative symptoms were mainly from being protein deficient and also from coming out a severe "flu" that seemed to affect my quite heart a bit. It's better now, no more chest pain despite being low VA. @MarcelZD Interesting, do you have you seen any papers about that? Especially about the gall bladder thing.

 

[tfcjesse]

A behemoth of a thread. Just checking in as I eat some white rice and beef with an egg on top. Do most of you remain convinced that a VA restriction diet is optimal? Is there a period after which one follows a minimal VA diet when they can reintroduce things like eggs? Also, to poll the geniuses here, is the diet centered around white rice and beef still viable? I've added some potatoes, steak, mushrooms, apples, bananas, and an egg here or there but that's my current diet.

 

[saraleah]

A behemoth of a thread. Just checking in as I eat some white rice and beef with an egg on top. Do most of you remain convinced that a VA restriction diet is optimal? Is there a period after which one follows a minimal VA diet when they can reintroduce things like eggs? Also, to poll the geniuses here, is the diet centered around white rice and beef still viable? I've added some potatoes, steak, mushrooms, apples, bananas, and an egg here or there but that's my current diet.

 

[saraleah]

If you are feeling better , you will quickly notice changes when reintroducing foods higher in retinoids, carotenoids. Ive been doing this 8 months, will add foods only one at a time to see what happens. It takes a long time to deplete.

 

[Luann]

A behemoth of a thread. Just checking in as I eat some white rice and beef with an egg on top. Do most of you remain convinced that a VA restriction diet is optimal? Is there a period after which one follows a minimal VA diet when they can reintroduce things like eggs? Also, to poll the geniuses here, is the diet centered around white rice and beef still viable? I've added some potatoes, steak, mushrooms, apples, bananas, and an egg here or there but that's my current diet.

That's for darn sure.

as far as "remain convinced", I personally have not taken great pains to remove naturally Vitamin-A containing foods from my diet since my last post on the topic. Yet I haven't supplemented with it for 6 weeks or so and DON'T PLAN TO.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

oh,i forgot I saw google results for it as a cluster headache treatment, not migraine, my bad.
my migraines actually do resemble cluster headaches which is why I found this out. and yes they say B2 for migraines, haven't experimented with it tho.
Also B1 seems to be pretty deficient in the RP diet!!

"Also B1 seems to be pretty deficient in the RP diet!!"

yes,and it is a bit concerning because of the distance between low B1 intake and high to very high CHO intake.For your issues i would rec. a general B-complex or multi,and that spiked with additional higher dosages B1up to 1200mg,B2, up to 200mg and so on,and Mg-citrate up to 1000mg/d for migraines.B2 at 200mg and Mg-citrate 400mg-Mg-content is a supplement for migraines here in germany.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

self-cite:

Does Vitamin A deplete EFAs?
Anyone know? i read parts of this threat,but its Yuuge..
Got dry Body-skin from consumption of Hi-Dose Retinol,
and am interested in the workings behind it.I read all the basics and a lot
of studies,but Retinol is complicated to say the least + cant remeber.

 

[postman]

self-cite:

Does Vitamin A deplete EFAs?
Anyone know? i read parts of this threat,but its Yuuge..
Got dry Body-skin from consumption of Hi-Dose Retinol,
and am interested in the workings behind it.I read all the basics and a lot
of studies,but Retinol is complicated to say the least + cant remeber.

I don't think it depletes EFAs and I don't think being "depleted" in "essential" fatty acids would cause dry skin unless you were at the same time deficient in other nutrients. Retinol can cause dry skin by a completely different mechanism.

 

[EIRE24]

I don't think it depletes EFAs and I don't think being "depleted" in "essential" fatty acids would cause dry skin unless you were at the same time deficient in other nutrients. Retinol can cause dry skin by a completely different mechanism.

And what mechanism would that be?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

And what mechanism would that be?

direct genomic action on sebocyte expression and anatomy is what i can remember.
Still have dry bodyskin after Hi-Dose Retinol,not of medical relevance but of minor cosmetic.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I don't think it depletes EFAs and I don't think being "depleted" in "essential" fatty acids would cause dry skin unless you were at the same time deficient in other nutrients. Retinol can cause dry skin by a completely different mechanism.

I thought about you just moments ago.What we share is reactivity or thoughts towards
Calcium,Sodium and Retinol.Calcium sensitivity can be directly explained by sodium excess and what it does to Ca-homeostasis.Also,interestingly,Vitamin D deficiency messes with Calcium Channels of different types.
I believe that 70ng/ml is a desireable D value,for which about 10000IU D3 has to be taken,if going without UV-irradiation.

 

[EIRE24]

direct genomic action on sebocyte expression and anatomy is what i can remember.
Still have dry bodyskin after Hi-Dose Retinol,not of medical relevance but of minor cosmetic.

Have you figured out how to counteract this?