Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Abcdefgmo]

That had actually occurred to me @Abcdefgmo !!

nutrition is confusing haha. like the ceruloplasmin has been summoned to fight against some kind of stress you mean? But I am def thinking along those lines now. And its possible that ceruloplasmin does require *some* A but just the little bit we get thru dairy and occasional yams etc

Yeah, even if you go on Wiki, one of the causes listed for high ceruloplasmin is inflammation. Ceruloplasmin = antioxidant

 

[Luann]

Yeah, even if you go on Wiki, one of the causes listed for high ceruloplasmin is inflammation. Ceruloplasmin = antioxidant

Wow, just wow. Thanks abcdefgmo

 

[Blossom]

Ah, verry interesting. I tend to forget we do not live in ideal circumstances and this affects our capacity for some substances. thanks Charlie

So true. Lots of things it seems.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Wow, just wow. Thanks abcdefgmo

Ferritin rises in inflammation too.

 

[Luann]

So...if I've learned anything here today...it's that copper may not increase the need for A...in fact counter-acting A toxicity may increase the need for copper.
Whoa!

 

[Abcdefgmo]

According to this site which shows vitamin and mineral agonists and antagonists, Copper and Vitamin A are antagonists ..

https://return2health.com.au/articles/vitamin-mineral-antagonists

So is liver even a good source of Copper..? Vitamin A, Zinc, and Iron will all hinder its absorption.. on the other hand, foods like nuts and seeds have phytates which hinder zinc and iron, and don't have Vitamin A(retinol), while it (phytic acid) apparently increases copper absorption, (which I guess is because of that fact that it hinders the absorption of its antagonists)

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

According to this site which shows vitamin and mineral agonists and antagonists, Copper and Vitamin A are antagonists ..

https://return2health.com.au/articles/vitamin-mineral-antagonists

So is liver even a good source of Copper..? Vitamin A, Zinc, and Iron will all hinder its absorption.. on the other hand, foods like nuts and seeds have phytates which hinder zinc and iron, and don't have Vitamin A(retinol), while it (phytic acid) apparently increases copper absorption, (which I guess is because of that fact that it hinders the absorption of its antagonists)

All livers are considered good sources of copper. However there are difference between them - beef liver is the highest in copper and the lowest in iron and is considered closer to that of a human liver. That's why it's recommended buy Morley Robbins in the Root Cause protocol.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

deleted.

 

[tim333]

Is there any evidence for widespread copper deficiency? Seems unlikely, it's found in a range of foods. Copper, iron and Vitamin A are the three nutrients that can cause major illness in excess so I certainly wouldn't want to consume a lot of copper rich food intentionally. Riboflavin deficiency affects 60+% of the population, Vitamin D deficiency affects ~40% of the population, thiamin deficiency affects about 25% of the population from memory, Vitamin C is about 7% from memory, choline deficiency is probably high, iodine deficiency affects ~40% of the population from memory, magnesium deficiency is said to be high. These are figures from studies I've read. Riboflavin deficiency likely causes a lot of iron and copper toxicity issues.

 

[Luann]

i'm not sure there's evidence for widespread copper deficiency but it could happen if a person relied on iron-rich or retinol-rich foods for it... re the comment above about those things inhibiting its absorption

a final thing i'm gonna say on this topic is that dairy supplementation with vite A goes above and beyond what normal milk contains. so, that is an intake of A that is not 'natural'. and idk if liver is even really a traditional food or if it was more of a poverty food but i'm sure someone could find more information on that if they looked.

thanks for indulging my thoughts : )

 

[tim333]

Liver is a traditional food, see this clip of the Kung San of the Kalahari:



Perhaps Europeans and Middle Easterners have made genetic adaptions to a low VA and low iron diet since the beginning of the Neolithic. They are the population groups that suffer from hemochromatosis with the most frequency. It is said that the neolithic reached Northern Europe more recently than the Middle East, this however is irrelevant as the Indo European peoples that introduced it were invaders, i.e. farmer DNA dominated native European Cro Magnon hunter gatherer DNA. Yes the nobility liked to feast on large amounts of meat but most of the population were consuming a cereal based diet. This is pure speculation though, there may be big holes in this theory, for example the peoples of the Germanic forests in Roman times did a lot of hunting and most had a high level of freedom. I doubt dislike of liver is a new phenomenon, perhaps it only occurs among certain ethnicities. In that clip the Kung San seem to think liver is great but the White presenter finds it repulsive.

As far as I know most VA fortification uses much lower amounts of VA than what one would get from high VA sources like liver, CLO and VA supplements. It's more in the realm of what we get from eggs and dairy. It's obviously bad but not necessarily enough to lead to problems on its own.

 

[tim333]

What are people's thoughts on blood donations as a way to reduce VA stores? If one has 50 mcg/dL then a donation of 450 ml will contain 225 mcg of retinol. This is approximately the amount of VA in 3 eggs. Donating blood is a great way to reduce iron stores but it doesn't seem like a very good way to reduce VA stores.

 

[Max23]

Liver is a traditional food, see this clip of the Kung San of the Kalahari:



Perhaps Europeans and Middle Easterners have made genetic adaptions to a low VA and low iron diet since the beginning of the Neolithic. They are the population groups that suffer from hemochromatosis with the most frequency. It is said that the neolithic reached Northern Europe more recently than the Middle East, this however is irrelevant as the Indo European peoples that introduced it were invaders, i.e. farmer DNA dominated native European Cro Magnon hunter gatherer DNA. Yes the nobility liked to feast on large amounts of meat but most of the population were consuming a cereal based diet. This is pure speculation though, there may be big holes in this theory, for example the peoples of the Germanic forests in Roman times did a lot of hunting and most had a high level of freedom. I doubt dislike of liver is a new phenomenon, perhaps it only occurs among certain ethnicities. In that clip the Kung San seem to think liver is great but the White presenter finds it repulsive.

As far as I know most VA fortification uses much lower amounts of VA than what one would get from high VA sources like liver, CLO and VA supplements. It's more in the realm of what we get from eggs and dairy. It's obviously bad but not necessarily enough to lead to problems on its own.

In my Northern and Eastern European country liver has been a traditional food. The taste really depends on seasoning. It can be super tasty. When salt is not used it can taste like butt. Liver paté made with butter has been one of my childhood favourites. On bread I think it is supertasty. Once I made a fried liver dish with onions. It tasted horrendous, like butt. Then I put salt on it and it went to amazing.

I am trying to put together a story how the vitamin A toxicity occurs. My ancestors have never consumed this amount of it. There have been animal livers, but the amount of it consumed is not very large. There is only one liver and a bunch of other stuff in a pig, while everything gets consumed (ears and legs included). Then the whole family eats it, so one person gets a small portion of the liver. Animals aren´t killed that often either. There is also dairy, but not as much concentrated forms of it. People also ate less, because that amount of food wasn´t available. Fruit was only eaten seasonally. So the most of the diet was grains and vegetables, low in vitamin A. Also I think the main culprit of vitamin A toxicity then is all of the other new stuff the liver has to deal with: drugs, pollution, heavy metals, food additives, and so on. That is why it could get clogged up with vitamin A.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

In my Northern and Eastern European country liver has been a traditional food. The taste really depends on seasoning. It can be super tasty. When salt is not used it can taste like butt. Liver paté made with butter has been one of my childhood favorites. On bread I think it is supertasty. Once I made a fried liver dish with onions. It tasted horrendous, like butt. Then I put salt on it and it went to amazing.

I am trying to put together a story how the vitamin A toxicity occurs. My ancestors have never consumed this amount of it. There have been animal livers, but the amount of it consumed is not very large. There is only one liver and a bunch of other stuff in a pig, while everything gets consumed (ears and legs included). Then the whole family eats it, so one person gets a small portion of the liver. Animals aren´t killed that often either. There is also dairy, but not as much concentrated forms of it. People also ate less, because that amount of food wasn´t available. Fruit was only eaten seasonally. So the most of the diet was grains and vegetables, low in vitamin A. Also I think the main culprit of vitamin A toxicity then is all of the other new stuff the liver has to deal with: drugs, pollution, heavy metals, food additives, and so on. That is why it could get clogged up with vitamin A.

Eastern european checking in. Very interesting theory!

 

[Abcdefgmo]

i'm not sure there's evidence for widespread copper deficiency but it could happen if a person relied on iron-rich or retinol-rich foods for it... re the comment above about those things inhibiting its absorption

a final thing i'm gonna say on this topic is that dairy supplementation with vite A goes above and beyond what normal milk contains. so, that is an intake of A that is not 'natural'. and idk if liver is even really a traditional food or if it was more of a poverty food but i'm sure someone could find more information on that if they looked.

thanks for indulging my thoughts : )

They fortify wheat and other grains with inorganic iron (which stays in your body accumulating unless you donate blood), fructose lowers copper absorption (who hasn't overeaten sugar compared to 100 years ago), glyphosate, and maybe there's not as much as there once was in the soils. Widespread copper deficiency is not farfetched

 

[tim333]

In my Northern and Eastern European country liver has been a traditional food. The taste really depends on seasoning. It can be super tasty. When salt is not used it can taste like butt. Liver paté made with butter has been one of my childhood favourites. On bread I think it is supertasty. Once I made a fried liver dish with onions. It tasted horrendous, like butt. Then I put salt on it and it went to amazing.

I am trying to put together a story how the vitamin A toxicity occurs. My ancestors have never consumed this amount of it. There have been animal livers, but the amount of it consumed is not very large. There is only one liver and a bunch of other stuff in a pig, while everything gets consumed (ears and legs included). Then the whole family eats it, so one person gets a small portion of the liver. Animals aren´t killed that often either. There is also dairy, but not as much concentrated forms of it. People also ate less, because that amount of food wasn´t available. Fruit was only eaten seasonally. So the most of the diet was grains and vegetables, low in vitamin A. Also I think the main culprit of vitamin A toxicity then is all of the other new stuff the liver has to deal with: drugs, pollution, heavy metals, food additives, and so on. That is why it could get clogged up with vitamin A.

Yeah liver is a traditional food all around the world and many people like to eat it but there are many that also intensely dislike it as well. Think about lactose tolerance. In Northern Europe lactose tolerance is common but there are still many people in the same gene pool that are lactose intolerant as well. If genetic adaptions were made to a lower VA diet not everyone would share those genes equally. I hate liver and have always hated it, it doesn't matter if it is pate or liverwurst or anything, if it contains liver I find it really disgusting. I trust that my body doesn't want it.

It is true that people didn't eat nose to tail by choice but by necessity, food was scarce for most. However liver seems to have been a prized food by some cultures indicating that it wasn't just a food they were forced to eat.

 

[Max23]

Yeah liver is a traditional food all around the world and many people like to eat it but there are many that also intensely dislike it as well. Think about lactose tolerance. In Northern Europe lactose tolerance is common but there are still many people in the same gene pool that are lactose intolerant as well. If genetic adaptions were made to a lower VA diet not everyone would share those genes equally. I hate liver and have always hated it, it doesn't matter if it is pate or liverwurst or anything, if it contains liver I find it really disgusting. I trust that my body doesn't want it.

It is true that people didn't eat nose to tail by choice but by necessity, food was scarce for most. However liver seems to have been a prized food by some cultures indicating that it wasn't just a food they were forced to eat.

In Northern Europe lactose intolerance is very rare. I have never heard of anyone who is lactose intolerant in my country. During childhood I didn´t really know what allergy was (it was the 90s). Nobody had it. During the Soviet times there were practically no allergies. My biology teacher said allergies are caused by food additives. During the Soviet times there was no need for them, because everything would get bought right away. My opininon is that allergies are caused by the Western lifestyle and probably other chronic diseases as well, especially those that affect the youth.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

In Northern Europe lactose intolerance is very rare. I have never heard of anyone who is lactose intolerant in my country. During childhood I didn´t really know what allergy was (it was the 90s). Nobody had it. During the Soviet times there were practically no allergies. My biology teacher said allergies are caused by food additives. During the Soviet times there was no need for them, because everything would get bought right away. My opininon is that allergies are caused by the Western lifestyle and probably other chronic diseases as well, especially those that affect the youth.

I think allergies and poor immunity are casued (partially atleast) by our sterile lives. Kids don't play in the dirt anymore, we sanitize everything and overuse antibiotics. I'm a millennial and our parent's generation (baby boomers and generation X) were the first generation that widely used (and abused perhaps) and doctors gave them like candies. Consequently our generation is plagued by allergies, following generations are even worse. Gut microbiome is a crucial piece of this puzzle imo.

 

[somuch4food]

In Northern Europe lactose intolerance is very rare. I have never heard of anyone who is lactose intolerant in my country. During childhood I didn´t really know what allergy was (it was the 90s). Nobody had it. During the Soviet times there were practically no allergies. My biology teacher said allergies are caused by food additives. During the Soviet times there was no need for them, because everything would get bought right away. My opininon is that allergies are caused by the Western lifestyle and probably other chronic diseases as well, especially those that affect the youth.

I think allergies and poor immunity are casued (partially atleast) by our sterile lives. Kids don't play in the dirt anymore, we sanitize everything and overuse antibiotics. I'm a millennial and our parent's generation (baby boomers and generation X) were the first generation that widely used (and abused perhaps) and doctors gave them like candies. Consequently our generation is plagued by allergies, following generations are even worse. Gut microbiome is a crucial piece of this puzzle imo.

Antibiotics, pesticides, lifestyle, additives, hygiene, all play a part in tuning our biome in the wrong direction, but we are also malnourished.

Marketing is erasing all traditions as it makes its way into other cultures. So, media also play a big part since we soak the information and begin to think that what is broadcasted is the truth. i.e. red meat is bad, butter is bad, Crisco is more healthy, colorful fruits and vegetables are the most healthy... Those are all things I grew up to believe since I was bombarded by the information in ads.

 

[Blossom]

In Northern Europe lactose intolerance is very rare. I have never heard of anyone who is lactose intolerant in my country. During childhood I didn´t really know what allergy was (it was the 90s). Nobody had it. During the Soviet times there were practically no allergies. My biology teacher said allergies are caused by food additives. During the Soviet times there was no need for them, because everything would get bought right away. My opininon is that allergies are caused by the Western lifestyle and probably other chronic diseases as well, especially those that affect the youth.

My ancestry is northwest European and I am lactose intolerant and have the genetic trait for it as well.