Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Sulcuscentralis]

Greetings everyone,

I'm "tim-2" from Grant Genereux's forum.

I've been following a low VA diet for 12 months now.

This is what I eat most days now:

Breakfast: Granola with almond milk and banana.

Lunch: Battered fish, potato, leek, cabbage and mushrooms.

Dinner: Chicken and baked beans with most of the tomato sauce drained out.

I eat about 3 hard boiled eggs per week.

At first I went really low VA but I have since realized that it's a marathon not a sprint to reduce VA levels in the body and I've also seen science showing that the body works hard to conserve VA when we go really low. So I have a small amount of VA from leeks, a tiny bit of tomato, fish and chicken.

I had my serum retinol levels tested recently and it's 1.8 umol/L which is 50.4 ug/dL. My cholesterol and liver enzymes have normalized compared with a test I had 3 years ago.

I've seen a huge change in my seb derm over the past year. It is 95% better, almost completely gone. I've suffered with it on my scalp, face and chest for many years. I had to use 6% H2O2 on my body every few days to control it! Now I hardly ever have to use the hydrogen peroxide. The current theory for seb derm makes no sense because it doesn't cover all oily areas, it happens in patches. Maybe the RA is coming out in those patches and is creating dead skin cells which the yeast feeds on that causes seb derm. Riboflavin deficiency is likely a key player as well, seb derm is connected to riboflavin deficiency. I posted on Grant's forum showing evidence that over 70% of people are riboflavin deficient! And guess what? Riboflavin is needed to convert retinol to retinoic acid and then to convert retinoic acid to water soluble retinoids that get excreted in the urine! So VA toxicity is depleting people's riboflavin levels. I posted the relevant studies on Grant's forum about this: Riboflavin's role in an important VA detox pathway

I'm a WAPF survivor, the WAPF diet caused me a lot of damage. I took CLO, FCLO, ate liver and copious amounts of dairy fat.

Here is my take on the VA toxicity situation:

VA is an essential vitamin needed for vision and for RA which is a hormone used by the body. VA issues are simply a matter of too much VA in our diet and possibly chemicals, nutrient deficiencies and health conditions that slow down the elimination of it.

I believe that everyone that is dealing with VA toxicity should get serum retinol tested but also Vitamin D and then make sure they are Vit D sufficient as Vit A competes with Vit D in the body. VA also likely depletes K2, molybdenum and choline. It depletes riboflavin. Basically we need to supplement with some Vit D or get lots of sun. Sunlight breaks down carotenoids and retinoids into still toxic breakdown products that must be eliminated by the body.

We should follow a diet that is extremely rich in B vitamins. Legumes are essential as they are rich in molybdenum, thiamine and folate. Mushrooms are an excellent food as they are zero VA and zero pectin and are high in riboflavin. (As posted on the Grant Genereux forum pectin should be minimized as it breaks down into methanol in the gut. Fruit juice is a major source of pectin and should be avoided. Fruit, vegetables and legumes all contain pectin, we should avoid consuming an excess of these foods.) Squid is low VA and high in riboflavin too. Fish I consider essential as it contains DHA, iodine and selenium. I think a few eggs per week is a good idea for the choline and they also contain iodine, selenium and DHA as well.

What a blessing Grant's work has been to raise awareness of this issue. I am very thankful to Grant. However, I can't endorse his books as they are full of logical fallacies and I would question anyone's intelligence if they can't easily see that. Plants developed the ability to synthesize carotenoids billions of years ago as a form of sun protection. Animals developed the ability to convert them into retinoids and use them and they became essential. VAD is real and Grant will eventually get xeropthalmia, fortunately the onset is very slow so he will have time to replenish his VA reserves before permanent damage occurs. Grant denies that retinal is needed for vision which is just flat out denial of hard science.

I'm concerned about anyone getting pregnant or having children while following a very low VA diet longterm.

Mexicans consume about 1/5 of the RDA while Americans consume about 3x the RDA, Mexicans have far less autoimmune disease. I think about 1/3 of the RDA is a good figure to aim for long term although most of our VA toxicity issues have likely been caused by consuming VA far in excess of the RDA long term.

I would caution against following Garrett Smith's advice. He often gets things totally wrong. It's great that he is on board with the VA toxicity issue though.

Matt Stone, what a legend. He's the reason I heard about VA toxicity.

How much liver were you eating?In the last year I ate lots if liver weekly, eggs and butter everyday. I'm entertaining the idea of VA toxicity. I've developed what I believe is B2 deficiency (light sensitivity, scaly skin around the lips, redness around the nose, dandruff).

 

[Giraffe]

- Sensitization of the Skeleton to Vitamin-A Overdosage by Cortisol

It's a pity that this study didn't get much attention.

Hans Selye summarized that in his rats "a moderate excess in Vitamin-A which, in itself, produces no detectable skeletal lesions, results in extraordinarily intense bone absorption" in animals that were simultaneously treated with cortisol.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Greetings everyone,

I'm "tim-2" from Grant Genereux's forum.

I've been following a low VA diet for 12 months now.

This is what I eat most days now:

Breakfast: Granola with almond milk and banana.

Lunch: Battered fish, potato, leek, cabbage and mushrooms.

Dinner: Chicken and baked beans with most of the tomato sauce drained out.

I eat about 3 hard boiled eggs per week.

At first I went really low VA but I have since realized that it's a marathon not a sprint to reduce VA levels in the body and I've also seen science showing that the body works hard to conserve VA when we go really low. So I have a small amount of VA from leeks, a tiny bit of tomato, fish and chicken.

I had my serum retinol levels tested recently and it's 1.8 umol/L which is 50.4 ug/dL. My cholesterol and liver enzymes have normalized compared with a test I had 3 years ago.

I've seen a huge change in my seb derm over the past year. It is 95% better, almost completely gone. I've suffered with it on my scalp, face and chest for many years. I had to use 6% H2O2 on my body every few days to control it! Now I hardly ever have to use the hydrogen peroxide. The current theory for seb derm makes no sense because it doesn't cover all oily areas, it happens in patches. Maybe the RA is coming out in those patches and is creating dead skin cells which the yeast feeds on that causes seb derm. Riboflavin deficiency is likely a key player as well, seb derm is connected to riboflavin deficiency. I posted on Grant's forum showing evidence that over 70% of people are riboflavin deficient! And guess what? Riboflavin is needed to convert retinol to retinoic acid and then to convert retinoic acid to water soluble retinoids that get excreted in the urine! So VA toxicity is depleting people's riboflavin levels. I posted the relevant studies on Grant's forum about this: Riboflavin's role in an important VA detox pathway

I'm a WAPF survivor, the WAPF diet caused me a lot of damage. I took CLO, FCLO, ate liver and copious amounts of dairy fat.

Here is my take on the VA toxicity situation:

VA is an essential vitamin needed for vision and for RA which is a hormone used by the body. VA issues are simply a matter of too much VA in our diet and possibly chemicals, nutrient deficiencies and health conditions that slow down the elimination of it.

I believe that everyone that is dealing with VA toxicity should get serum retinol tested but also Vitamin D and then make sure they are Vit D sufficient as Vit A competes with Vit D in the body. VA also likely depletes K2, molybdenum and choline. It depletes riboflavin. Basically we need to supplement with some Vit D or get lots of sun. Sunlight breaks down carotenoids and retinoids into still toxic breakdown products that must be eliminated by the body.

We should follow a diet that is extremely rich in B vitamins. Legumes are essential as they are rich in molybdenum, thiamine and folate. Mushrooms are an excellent food as they are zero VA and zero pectin and are high in riboflavin. (As posted on the Grant Genereux forum pectin should be minimized as it breaks down into methanol in the gut. Fruit juice is a major source of pectin and should be avoided. Fruit, vegetables and legumes all contain pectin, we should avoid consuming an excess of these foods.) Squid is low VA and high in riboflavin too. Fish I consider essential as it contains DHA, iodine and selenium. I think a few eggs per week is a good idea for the choline and they also contain iodine, selenium and DHA as well.

What a blessing Grant's work has been to raise awareness of this issue. I am very thankful to Grant. However, I can't endorse his books as they are full of logical fallacies and I would question anyone's intelligence if they can't easily see that. Plants developed the ability to synthesize carotenoids billions of years ago as a form of sun protection. Animals developed the ability to convert them into retinoids and use them and they became essential. VAD is real and Grant will eventually get xeropthalmia, fortunately the onset is very slow so he will have time to replenish his VA reserves before permanent damage occurs. Grant denies that retinal is needed for vision which is just flat out denial of hard science.

I'm concerned about anyone getting pregnant or having children while following a very low VA diet longterm.

Mexicans consume about 1/5 of the RDA while Americans consume about 3x the RDA, Mexicans have far less autoimmune disease. I think about 1/3 of the RDA is a good figure to aim for long term although most of our VA toxicity issues have likely been caused by consuming VA far in excess of the RDA long term.

I would caution against following Garrett Smith's advice. He often gets things totally wrong. It's great that he is on board with the VA toxicity issue though.

Matt Stone, what a legend. He's the reason I heard about VA toxicity.

Accelerated MPB also.

 

[Max23]

My ancestry is northwest European and I am lactose intolerant and have the genetic trait for it as well.

There are exeptions and I still think lactose intolerance and allergies are caused by modern life, because I just can´t imagine someone being lactose intolerant like 150 years ago in this area. Nor have I read about it in historical literature. People didn´t have those types of diseases then. There were diseases of infectious origin or caused by hard work or injuries. Just my opinion.

 

[Max23]

How much liver were you eating?In the last year I ate lots if liver weekly, eggs and butter everyday. I'm entertaining the idea of VA toxicity. I've developed what I believe is B2 deficiency (light sensitivity, scaly skin around the lips, redness around the nose, dandruff).

Have you tried supplementing B2? The first time I tried it (150mg) I put 15kg on almost everything at the gym. The increase in strenght was massive. VA toxicity story can be put together in a lot of cases. It is worth a shot if you run out of ideas. At least you´ll get smarter about which foods contain vitamin A and how much. I´m sure you´ll get some new information about your health. I am a bit afraid of vitamin B1 deficiency on it.
Just thinking hypothetically, not really daring to recommend it, becauses I am 50/50 about it. But there definitely is some truth to the story.

 

[Blossom]

There are exeptions and I still think lactose intolerance and allergies are caused by modern life, because I just can´t imagine someone being lactose intolerant like 150 years ago in this area. Nor have I read about it in historical literature. People didn´t have those types of diseases then. There were diseases of infectious origin or caused by hard work or injuries. Just my opinion.

Yes, I see your point. I often wonder if I had my own cow for milk if I’d tolerate milk better. It does seem like I’ve tolerated it better at certain points in my life than others. I can stay below a certain amount and be okay especially when my gut inflammation is down.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Have you tried supplementing B2? The first time I tried it (150mg) I put 15kg on almost everything at the gym. The increase in strenght was massive. VA toxicity story can be put together in a lot of cases. It is worth a shot if you run out of ideas. At least you´ll get smarter about which foods contain vitamin A and how much. I´m sure you´ll get some new information about your health. I am a bit afraid of vitamin B1 deficiency on it.
Just thinking hypothetically, not really daring to recommend it, becauses I am 50/50 about it. But there definitely is some truth to the story.

Thx for the tip Max! My story is a bit complicated. But this forum is a godsent. Lots of smart, kind and well read people.
My past 3 years were a rollercoaster. A year into the Ray Peat thing around Autumn 2017 I've developed IBS/Sibo digestive issues, lost 25 pounds (was 160 pounds lean before it) crazy brain fog, low libido, depression, anxiety isssues, low energy, just feeling miserable all the time. This summer I was 80 percent better, during this winter I tried higher dose B1 and that improved my digestion to the point were it's almost perfect. Vitamin depletion was probably due to chronic IBS, vitamin A toxicity is just a suspect. Later I realized it antagonizes b2 so started 100mg b2 with 100mg b1 and some Energin from Haidut. Right now I gained all my muscle back, my lifts are strongest they've ever been and looks like the skin issues are clearing. Sun exposure no longer gives crazy fatigue like a year ago. Still have to figure out the hair loss, cause it wast the main reason I started Peating through Danny Roddy in the first place. Shedding is increased now, but I see little villus hairs popping up so maybe it will regrow, but at this point it doesn't bother me much - probably gonna buzz it off. Looks like I got my life back and that's what matters.

 

[EIRE24]

Thx for the tip Max! My story is a bit complicated. But this forum is a godsent. Lots of smart, kind and well read people.
My past 3 years were a rollercoaster. A year into the Ray Peat thing around Autumn 2017 I've developed IBS/Sibo digestive issues, lost 25 pounds (was 160 pounds lean before it) crazy brain fog, low libido, depression, anxiety isssues, low energy, just feeling miserable all the time. This summer I was 80 percent better, during this winter I tried higher dose B1 and that improved my digestion to the point were it's almost perfect. Vitamin depletion was probably due to chronic IBS, vitamin A toxicity is just a suspect. Later I realized it antagonizes b2 so started 100mg b2 with 100mg b1 and some Energin from Haidut. Right now I gained all my muscle back, my lifts are strongest they've ever been and looks like the skin issues are clearing. Sun exposure no longer gives crazy fatigue like a year ago. Still have to figure out the hair loss, cause it wast the main reason I started Peating through Danny Roddy in the first place. Shedding is increased now, but I see little villus hairs popping up so maybe it will regrow, but at this point it doesn't bother me much - probably gonna buzz it off. Looks like I got my life back and that's what matters.

Thats amazing that B1 worked for you. I tried this and it gave me serious acid reflux and heartburn. I do have gut issues though and an ulcer and can relate to the symptoms you prescribed. It is a pity that B1 does not work for me.

 

[Luann]

Iposted in my log last nite about wanting to try thiamine. I don't get a lot through diet. I would hope that it would work for my migraines and increase liver metabolism of toxins

 

[InChristAlone]

Iposted in my log last nite about wanting to try thiamine. I don't get a lot through diet. I would hope that it would work for my migraines and increase liver metabolism of toxins

Riboflavin is more of a treatment for migraines.

 

[Luann]

oh,i forgot I saw google results for it as a cluster headache treatment, not migraine, my bad.
my migraines actually do resemble cluster headaches which is why I found this out. and yes they say B2 for migraines, haven't experimented with it tho.
Also B1 seems to be pretty deficient in the RP diet!!

 

[tim333]

How much liver were you eating?In the last year I ate lots if liver weekly, eggs and butter everyday. I'm entertaining the idea of VA toxicity. I've developed what I believe is B2 deficiency (light sensitivity, scaly skin around the lips, redness around the nose, dandruff).

Yes I get all those things but they have all been drastically reduced over the last year. I still get a very oily nose, I'm hoping that with further depletion of VA levels that that improves as well.

About 10 years ago I was following a WAPF diet eating liver each week, taking CLO each day, eating A LOT of butter and eggs and also eating lots of high carotene vegetables. It was about as high VA as you can get. Over the last ten years I gave up on trying to eat healthy because it didn't seem to help, duh! I still retained false beliefs about nutrition that hurt me though, I still tried to consume plenty of butter regularly and ate lots of spinach. I still had plenty of VA in my diet but my health improved when I stopped trying so hard.

When I'm at the supermarket checkout and I take note of other people's shopping I have come to realize that I've been consuming far more VA than the average person for most of my life. Most people consume very little butter/margarine, consume few eggs, consume milk and some cheese, consume a very modest amount of carrots or spinach, they are not getting a whole lot of VA. Plus a lot of people just don't eat a lot.

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the symptoms of high VA are caused largely by B2 deficiency. Most foods in my diet are high in B vitamins: Whole grains, potatoes, mushrooms, beans, nuts, fish, chicken, limited eggs are all high in Bs. Mushrooms are very good since they are zero pectin and zero VA and high in B2. Eating low VA, high B food feels very compatible with my body and very light and nourishing. I feel like if I went back to eating high VA I would feel sick, the thought repulses me.

 

[chrismturner89]

Thx for the tip Max! My story is a bit complicated. But this forum is a godsent. Lots of smart, kind and well read people.
My past 3 years were a rollercoaster. A year into the Ray Peat thing around Autumn 2017 I've developed IBS/Sibo digestive issues, lost 25 pounds (was 160 pounds lean before it) crazy brain fog, low libido, depression, anxiety isssues, low energy, just feeling miserable all the time. This summer I was 80 percent better, during this winter I tried higher dose B1 and that improved my digestion to the point were it's almost perfect. Vitamin depletion was probably due to chronic IBS, vitamin A toxicity is just a suspect. Later I realized it antagonizes b2 so started 100mg b2 with 100mg b1 and some Energin from Haidut. Right now I gained all my muscle back, my lifts are strongest they've ever been and looks like the skin issues are clearing. Sun exposure no longer gives crazy fatigue like a year ago. Still have to figure out the hair loss, cause it wast the main reason I started Peating through Danny Roddy in the first place. Shedding is increased now, but I see little villus hairs popping up so maybe it will regrow, but at this point it doesn't bother me much - probably gonna buzz it off. Looks like I got my life back and that's what matters.

Vitamin A antagonises b2? What kind of b2 do you take?

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Vitamin A antagonises b2? What kind of b2 do you take?

I meant b1 antagonizes b2, bot sure about A and B2, but according to the gentleman above (Tim) it does. Makes sense too. I use "Puritan's Pride B2 100mg" - it was locally available. Weird thing that not one pharmacy was selling b2 separately.Usually Doctors don't take the b2 deficiency very seriously. I have a dermatologist friend and gonna ask him about it.

 

[Max23]

Thx for the tip Max! My story is a bit complicated. But this forum is a godsent. Lots of smart, kind and well read people.
My past 3 years were a rollercoaster. A year into the Ray Peat thing around Autumn 2017 I've developed IBS/Sibo digestive issues, lost 25 pounds (was 160 pounds lean before it) crazy brain fog, low libido, depression, anxiety isssues, low energy, just feeling miserable all the time. This summer I was 80 percent better, during this winter I tried higher dose B1 and that improved my digestion to the point were it's almost perfect. Vitamin depletion was probably due to chronic IBS, vitamin A toxicity is just a suspect. Later I realized it antagonizes b2 so started 100mg b2 with 100mg b1 and some Energin from Haidut. Right now I gained all my muscle back, my lifts are strongest they've ever been and looks like the skin issues are clearing. Sun exposure no longer gives crazy fatigue like a year ago. Still have to figure out the hair loss, cause it wast the main reason I started Peating through Danny Roddy in the first place. Shedding is increased now, but I see little villus hairs popping up so maybe it will regrow, but at this point it doesn't bother me much - probably gonna buzz it off. Looks like I got my life back and that's what matters.

Sounds very complicated indeed! Glad to hear you fixed most of your problems. B1 and B2 are definitely Ray Peat Forum all stars. At least I think so. B1 and B2 gave me great benefits at first, but the effects wore off. Have not tried Energin. Extreme diets can be dangerous. If you have mostly everything in check, then extreme experiments should not be necessary. I don´t know much about hair loss, only that it is quite complicated as I have read in this forum.

 

[chrismturner89]

I meant b1 antagonizes b2, bot sure about A and B2, but according to the gentleman above (Tim) it does. Makes sense too. I use "Puritan's Pride B2 100mg" - it was locally available. Weird thing that not one pharmacy was selling b2 separately.Usually Doctors don't take the b2 deficiency very seriously. I have a dermatologist friend and gonna ask him about it.

@tim333 could you elaborate please? Thanks!

 

[tim333]

@tim333 could you elaborate please? Thanks!

Riboflavin's role in an important VA detox pathway

 

[Amazoniac]

That's some great data, I wasn't aware that Vit D reduces liver VA levels. Thanks for that.

They were taken at the same time, we can't expect the same antagonism when consumed separately.

Riboflavin's role in an important VA detox pathway

What doesn't get much attention is that the mitochondrial complex I (associated with niacin) involves riboflavin's coenzyme FMN in its function:
- Respiratory complex I - Wikipedia

It's a pity that this study didn't get much attention.

Hans Selye summarized that in his rats "a moderate excess in Vitamin-A which, in itself, produces no detectable skeletal lesions, results in extraordinarily intense bone absorption" in animals that were simultaneously treated with cortisol.

Giraffe, Ihr Kommentar war für mein Belohnungssystem äußerst atoxisch.
It's considerate of you to search before posting, you're one of a few doing it.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Sounds very complicated indeed! Glad to hear you fixed most of your problems. B1 and B2 are definitely Ray Peat Forum all stars. At least I think so. B1 and B2 gave me great benefits at first, but the effects wore off. Have not tried Energin. Extreme diets can be dangerous. If you have mostly everything in check, then extreme experiments should not be necessary. I don´t know much about hair loss, only that it is quite complicated as I have read in this forum.

Too true - extremes are indeed harmful for most people. What I've learned through this Peat journey that being neurotic about food is just another form of stress and letting it go sometimes is therapeutic.

 

[tim333]

They were taken at the same time, we can't expect the same antagonism when consumed separately.

What doesn't get much attention is that the mitochondrial complex I (associated with niacin) involves riboflavin's coenzyme FMN in its function:
- Respiratory complex I - Wikipedia

The antagonism happens in the intestine? If not, why can't we expect antagonism when consumed separately?