Estrogen Blocking

[b555]

I didnt suggest it wasnt!

You said you felt crappy on the AI and much better off it... I think that's more than likley from the burden it would put on your liver.

Ah yes interesting

 

[b555]

I see. Have you noticed any increase in water retention with higher estrogen? I tried exemestane in various doses over the span of a couple of months for the supposed testosterone boosting effects. It seemed to increase subcutaneous lower abdominal fat and also lowered my energy levels after a few days. Did you experience this as well?

Yes !

 

[Jing]

@b555 What dose of test do you take? And how long did it take for everything to stabilise after dropping ais?

 

[b555]

@b555 What dose of test do you take? And how long did it take for everything to stabilise after dropping ais?

6 weeks about.
Right now im taking 70mg test cyp a week. I have used up to 200mg

 

[Jing]

6 weeks about.
Right now im taking 70mg test cyp a week. I have used up to 200mg

How is a low dose treating you compared to high dose? Also what is your injection frequency?

 

[b555]

I feel better at a higher dose, but 70mg seems to get the lowest dose to alleviate most of my symptoms. I felt very good at a higher dose, but do worry about it long term. My free t was 3x over range at my highest dose, 70mg puts all my numbers right in the middle range
2x injections works, but also i did daily which works well too, but would be hard to maintain that

 

[MitchMitchell]

Shooting for mid range numbers is utterly useless as those ranges are based on statistics from a fat sedentary hopeless population of sick individuals. It’s about symptoms and wellbeing not numbers.

T3, Free test (total is useless without shbg), E2, Dhea, igf1 and others should all be in the upper quintile of the range at least. Drug induced “high” levels of t3, T, E2, Dhea aren’t the same as baseline naturally high levels. But I think most people can’t understand it.

 

[b555]

Shooting for mid range numbers is utterly useless as those ranges are based on statistics from a fat sedentary hopeless population of sick individuals. It’s about symptoms and wellbeing not numbers.

T3, Free test (total is useless without shbg), E2, Dhea, igf1 and others should all be in the upper quintile of the range at least. Drug induced “high” levels of t3, T, E2, Dhea aren’t the same as baseline naturally high levels. But I think most people can’t understand it.

yes correct. Usually i feel best with Free t3 right at top range. and Free T needs to be over range around 25. DHEAS i have a hard time getting that higher than mid range. Also e2 is slightly over range.

 

[MitchMitchell]

DHEAS i have a hard time getting that higher than mid range

do you think that could be cortisol related?

 

[b555]

Maybe, my saliva cortisol was just very slightly off. I use ace sometimes, but doesnt seem to help

 

[tankasnowgod]

This Jay Campbell character seems to be all about Estrogen for men. Another thread about this same thing, about a year ago-

Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

The problems with AIs have been talked about a lot on this forum. Peat is on record as suggesting that the pharmaceutical AIs are dangerous.

However, lot's of guys here are having success on various doses of progesterone (myself included), which is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances there is-

DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

 

[tankasnowgod]

I stopped using an AI and am way healthier with high E2.

The only pharma AI I have used has been Exemestane. It did suppress serum E2 when tested, which was about 4 weeks in. I was using with Pregnenolone and DHEA, in hopes to raise testosterone. It didn't work for me as hoped. I was using 6.25mg Exemestane a day. After about 2 months, I noticed mood was getting worse, and didn't notice any subjective benefits, nor improvements in blood tests. When I stopped Exemestane, mood rebounded in a day or two. I have taken about 6.25 a few times since then, using it once or twice a week. I noticed no negatives when doing this, but didn't notice any real positives, either. Might have been too infrequent.

I think Exemestane still might be useful in some situations, but it can still come with some negatives. Letrozole, or the the other zoles, I think cause even more issues. Maybe if they were dosed even lower. There is a doctor that recommends mcg doses of letorzole (in what would add up to about 3.5 pills used over a year) along with DHEA as an alternative to TRT. Maybe they are all just simply dosed way too high (at least in men, not necessarily in women with breast cancer).

However, higher dose Progesterone with DHEA has indeed been a very positive thing. I have noticed the greatest increase in my biceps ever over ten weeks, and that is with zero weight lifting. No negative mood issues after 10+ weeks of doing this at about 135mg Prog + 15mg DHEA a day. The Prog + DHEA combo has quite a bit of promise, IMO.

 

[b555]

The only pharma AI I have used has been Exemestane. It did suppress serum E2 when tested, which was about 4 weeks in. I was using with Pregnenolone and DHEA, in hopes to raise testosterone. It didn't work for me as hoped. I was using 6.25mg Exemestane a day. After about 2 months, I noticed mood was getting worse, and didn't notice any subjective benefits, nor improvements in blood tests. When I stopped Exemestane, mood rebounded in a day or two. I have taken about 6.25 a few times since then, using it once or twice a week. I noticed no negatives when doing this, but didn't notice any real positives, either. Might have been too infrequent.

I think Exemestane still might be useful in some situations, but it can still come with some negatives. Letrozole, or the the other zoles, I think cause even more issues. Maybe if they were dosed even lower. There is a doctor that recommends mcg doses of letorzole (in what would add up to about 3.5 pills used over a year) along with DHEA as an alternative to TRT. Maybe they are all just simply dosed way too high (at least in men, not necessarily in women with breast cancer).

However, higher dose Progesterone with DHEA has indeed been a very positive thing. I have noticed the greatest increase in my biceps ever over ten weeks, and that is with zero weight lifting. No negative mood issues after 10+ weeks of doing this at about 135mg Prog + 15mg DHEA a day. The Prog + DHEA combo has quite a bit of promise, IMO.

yeah good points I added in 5mg dhea

 

[schultz]

This Jay Campbell character seems to be all about Estrogen for men. Another thread about this same thing, about a year ago-

Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

The problems with AIs have been talked about a lot on this forum. Peat is on record as suggesting that the pharmaceutical AIs are dangerous.

However, lot's of guys here are having success on various doses of progesterone (myself included), which is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances there is-

DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

Yes it has been discussed quite a bit. I researched the topic a year or so ago, looking at studies and case reports. They do (AI's) seem to sometimes have some strange effects, which I feel are unrelated to estrogen. I have concluded that we just do not have enough information on these drugs to really know what is happening, but I have a feeling they are not entirely specific to the CYP19A1 enzyme 100% of the time. I would be shocked if they were actually. So that leaves the question, what other enzymes are they affecting and what effect does that have on the person? Those are pretty big questions.

Edit: For clarification, I was mostly researching letrozole and anastrozole. I don't know as much about exemestane, and it works differently than the other two.

 

[MitchMitchell]

This Jay Campbell character seems to be all about Estrogen for men. Another thread about this same thing, about a year ago-

Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

The problems with AIs have been talked about a lot on this forum. Peat is on record as suggesting that the pharmaceutical AIs are dangerous.

However, lot's of guys here are having success on various doses of progesterone (myself included), which is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances there is-

DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

Jay Campbell is very very very limited intellectually.

He doesn’t understand that Rouzier is pro estradiol in the sole context of having high testosterone. This is evidence based and it seems that there are very few studies showing good results from progesterone supplementation in men but that doesn’t discount anecdotes for sure. FYI rouzier recommends 25 if not 50mg of Dhea as a starting dose but that also depends on DHEA-S bloodworks.

 

[IVILA]

what are healthy levels of E1 and E2 anyways? My estradiol is 18.5 pg/mL.

 

[MitchMitchell]

About 1/20 to 1/30 of total Testosterone. Healthy total test being 600+ you do the maths

 

[IVILA]

About 1/20 to 1/30 of total Testosterone. Healthy total test being 600+ you do the maths

yeah so if total test is 700 ng/dl, then an estradiol of 18.5 pg/ml is fine I guess. Especially if total test is yet to be increased.

 

[MitchMitchell]

yeah it is fine, higher e2 is great (bone hair libido anti cvd etc.) but only if T is higher of course.

Free T is important as well

 

[IVILA]

yeah it is fine, higher e2 is great (bone hair libido anti cvd etc.) but only if T is higher of course.

Free T is important as well

boron(12 mg per day) helps with improving all 3 of these measures no? Plus increasing dht. So it's an all round t-booster