How Aromatization Works In The Long Term?

[Makrosky]

Let's see if someone can give some light about this because I have never seen this discussed in the forum before and I'm really curious of how this works.

Let's start with three basic premises everybody knows:
- In the wrong context (hypothyroid, stress, etc.), testosterone or some of it's precussors like DHEA end up aromatized to estrogen.
- That's why people, specially bodybuilders, use aromatase inhibitors when they increase testosterone by any means.
- Some people get heavy estrogenic symptoms even from very small doses of DHEA.

So then the thing is :
- Imagine someone who has the above mentioned problems starts taking DHEA or an androgenic herb like Pine Pollen, etc. AND an aromatase inhibitor like Vitamin E, K, Nettle Root, whatever. This combination works. You keep getting androgenic and inhibiting the estrogen formation. Imagine you keep doing this for weeks or months and your blood levels of DHEA, DHEA-S, T, etc. keep increasing. So far so good. Presumably your tissues are also getting saturated with it, right ? And estrogen didn't go up even a little bit.

Then you find it's enough, you feel quite well, you want to stop for a while the DHEA/Androgens.

Then... what happens with the aromatization ? Because before starting this regimen you were aromatizing even the smallest ammount of DHEA and now you have TONS of DHEA and T on blood and tissues to to get aromatized. Much more than before.

What will happen ? I'm really curious. Do bodybuilders have to stay on AI forever or getting estrogenic symptoms as soon as they stop the AI ?

Will the muscles of the bodybuilders turn up to man boobs in a few months ? I don't think that happens. Why is so ?

Thanks in advance.

Giving that I am not very lucky getting answers to my latests posts, I'm gonna go straight and summon some of the gurus of the forum : @haidut @Amazoniac, @Hans, @Wagner83, @ecstatichamster, @tankasnowgod, @tca300, @DaveFoster, @olive, @Kartoffel

 

[Kartoffel]

Let's see if someone can give some light about this because I have never seen this discussed in the forum before and I'm really curious of how this works.

Let's start with three basic premises everybody knows:
- In the wrong context (hypothyroid, stress, etc.), testosterone or some of it's precussors like DHEA end up aromatized to estrogen.
- That's why people, specially bodybuilders, use aromatase inhibitors when they increase testosterone by any means.
- Some people get heavy estrogenic symptoms even from very small doses of DHEA.

So then the thing is :
- Imagine someone who has the above mentioned problems starts taking DHEA or an androgenic herb like Pine Pollen, etc. AND an aromatase inhibitor like Vitamin E, K, Nettle Root, whatever. This combination works. You keep getting androgenic and inhibiting the estrogen formation. Imagine you keep doing this for weeks or months and your blood levels of DHEA, DHEA-S, T, etc. keep increasing. So far so good. Presumably your tissues are also getting saturated with it, right ? And estrogen didn't go up even a little bit.

Then you find it's enough, you feel quite well, you want to stop for a while the DHEA/Androgens.

Then... what happens with the aromatization ? Because before starting this regimen you were aromatizing even the smallest ammount of DHEA and now you have TONS of DHEA and T on blood and tissues to to get aromatized. Much more than before.

What will happen ? I'm really curious. Do bodybuilders have to stay on AI forever or getting estrogenic symptoms as soon as they stop the AI ?

Will the muscles of the bodybuilders turn up to man boobs in a few months ? I don't think that happens. Why is so ?

Thanks in advance.

Giving that I am not very lucky getting answers to my latests posts, I'm gonna go straight and summon some of the gurus of the forum : @haidut @Amazoniac, @Hans, @Wagner83, @ecstatichamster, @tankasnowgod, @tca300, @DaveFoster, @olive, @Kartoffel

First of all, it's an honor to be included in that illustrious list of experts. My understanding of aromatization is very basic, so I am probably going to be of little help, but I think your example with the bodybuilders implies an over-simplification of the issue. I don't think that bodybuilders that take testosterone and an AI at the same time will have very high testosterone and very low estrogen. Maybe they will have blood tests indicating that estrogens are low, but I assume that this doesn't reflect what's really going on. Ray says that the edegree of aromatization depends on the physiological state of the whole organism, and many things can turn into AI inhibitors and promoters of aromatization.

In your example, the AI is like a dam that holds back the flood of estrogen, and once you remove it, the flood will reak havoc. I think any single AI will at best be a very leaky dam that can minimze some of the damage for a while. I have seen some guys that turned themselves into huge muscle monsters over the period of a few months, but then transformed into walking piles of pudding just as fast. Most of the strongest men on the planet are obese and sick. The mountain (Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson), for example, usually caries a significant amount of fat on his body, and recently had half his face paralyzed. Just the amount of protein those guys eat is probably a significant promoter of aromatization.
I guess the most powerful AI are an interesting life and eating that is based on hunger and cravings. I think bodybuilders are the exact opposite of both.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

. Just the amount of protein those guys eat is probably a significant promoter of aromatization.

What’s your thinking here? Any references to support this theory?

 

[Kartoffel]

What’s your thinking here? Any references to support this theory?

Excessive protein intake has been shown to decrease metabolic rate, decrease testosterone levels, and is associated with degenerative diseases in the intestine. I suspect that eating excess protein also drastically increases toxin-producing bacteria due to undigested peptides.

 

[Makrosky]

First of all, it's an honor to be included in that illustrious list of experts. My understanding of aromatization is very basic, so I am probably going to be of little help, but I think your example with the bodybuilders implies an over-simplification of the issue. I don't think that bodybuilders that take testosterone and an AI at the same time will have very high testosterone and very low estrogen. Maybe they will have blood tests indicating that estrogens are low, but I assume that this doesn't reflect what's really going on. Ray says that the edegree of aromatization depends on the physiological state of the whole organism, and many things can turn into AI inhibitors and promoters of aromatization.

In your example, the AI is like a dam that holds back the flood of estrogen, and once you remove it, the flood will reak havoc. I think any single AI will at best be a very leaky dam that can minimze some of the damage for a while. I have seen some guys that turned themselves into huge muscle monsters over the period of a few months, but then transformed into walking piles of pudding just as fast. Most of the strongest men on the planet are obese and sick. The mountain (Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson), for example, usually caries a significant amount of fat on his body, and recently had half his face paralyzed. Just the amount of protein those guys eat is probably a significant promoter of aromatization.
I guess the most powerful AI are an interesting life and eating that is based on hunger and cravings. I think bodybuilders are the exact opposite of both.

Yeah thanks for your feedback man. Good points. I mentioned bodybuilders because I think it's an easy image to grasp the whole concept but I meant more "modest" bodybuilders : the big ones and the uneducated ones do lots of extreme/counterproductive things as you mentioned, they are not a good example.

After reading your points I am thinking that in a normal aging/degenerating person that is not using any hormones or strong measures, thyroid function and "good hormones" levels will gradually decrease coupled together: You will keep "loosing" T/DHEA and thyroid function and you will keep "gaining" aromatization during the years so nothing extreme can suddenly happen. On the other side, using the AI like a damn on a not good metabolism and increasing T/DHEA sounds like a time bomb. That's why I want to make sure I get it right and that's why I'm asking.

Btw I'm asking it because I want to increase DHEA/Androgens but I know for myself I easily aromatize even small ammounts of DHEA. It's a shame because I get very good anti-stress/wellbeing effects before the aromatization takes place. Then hell breaks loose.

 

[Makrosky]

Excessive protein intake has been shown to decrease metabolic rate, decrease testosterone levels, and is associated with degenerative diseases in the intestine. I suspect that eating excess protein also drastically increases toxin-producing bacteria due to undigested peptides.

And the ammount of ammonia produced. The burden on the kidneys, etc...

 

[Kartoffel]

Yeah thanks for your feedback man. Good points. I mentioned bodybuilders because I think it's an easy image to grasp the whole concept but I meant more "modest" bodybuilders : the big ones and the uneducated ones do lots of extreme/counterproductive things as you mentioned, they are not a good example.

After reading your points I am thinking that in a normal aging/degenerating person that is not using any hormones or strong measures, thyroid function and "good hormones" levels will gradually decrease coupled together: You will keep "loosing" T/DHEA and thyroid function and you will keep "gaining" aromatization during the years so nothing extreme can suddenly happen. On the other side, using the AI like a damn on a not good metabolism and increasing T/DHEA sounds like a time bomb. That's why I want to make sure I get it right and that's why I'm asking.

Btw I'm asking it because I want to increase DHEA/Androgens but I know for myself I easily aromatize even small ammounts of DHEA.

I think Ray mentioned that he thinks 10mg are safe for a healthy, young male. When I was in bad shape, 10mg caused me to become aggressive and irretable - I assume that was from increased aromatization. Today, I can take 10mg daily with good results, but I would always start with sth like 2-5mg. The better you feel overall, the more likely it is that you can use larger amounts with good results.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Let's see if someone can give some light about this because I have never seen this discussed in the forum before and I'm really curious of how this works.

Let's start with three basic premises everybody knows:
- In the wrong context (hypothyroid, stress, etc.), testosterone or some of it's precussors like DHEA end up aromatized to estrogen.
- That's why people, specially bodybuilders, use aromatase inhibitors when they increase testosterone by any means.
- Some people get heavy estrogenic symptoms even from very small doses of DHEA.

So then the thing is :
- Imagine someone who has the above mentioned problems starts taking DHEA or an androgenic herb like Pine Pollen, etc. AND an aromatase inhibitor like Vitamin E, K, Nettle Root, whatever. This combination works. You keep getting androgenic and inhibiting the estrogen formation. Imagine you keep doing this for weeks or months and your blood levels of DHEA, DHEA-S, T, etc. keep increasing. So far so good. Presumably your tissues are also getting saturated with it, right ? And estrogen didn't go up even a little bit.

Then you find it's enough, you feel quite well, you want to stop for a while the DHEA/Androgens.

Then... what happens with the aromatization ? Because before starting this regimen you were aromatizing even the smallest ammount of DHEA and now you have TONS of DHEA and T on blood and tissues to to get aromatized. Much more than before.

What will happen ? I'm really curious. Do bodybuilders have to stay on AI forever or getting estrogenic symptoms as soon as they stop the AI ?

Will the muscles of the bodybuilders turn up to man boobs in a few months ? I don't think that happens. Why is so ?

Thanks in advance.

Giving that I am not very lucky getting answers to my latests posts, I'm gonna go straight and summon some of the gurus of the forum : @haidut @Amazoniac, @Hans, @Wagner83, @ecstatichamster, @tankasnowgod, @tca300, @DaveFoster, @olive, @Kartoffel

It will likely depend on how the AI works. If the AI you use allows the non aromatizable androgens and progesterone to build up and continue to be produced, then estrogen will probably continue to be lower after going off the AI, and less will be produced (assuming you were on the AI for a long enough period of time). However, some AI's, like Letrozole, suppress more than just estrogen. Letrozole suppresses Progesterone, too. So there could be a serious "rebound" effect from going off Letrozole, and estrogen may come back even harsher, since less progesterone will be there to oppose estrogen. Letrozole is considered a much harsher AI anyway, and makes many people feel lousy taking it.

 

[Makrosky]

It will likely depend on how the AI works. If the AI you use allows the non aromatizable androgens and progesterone to build up and continue to be produced, then estrogen will probably continue to be lower after going off the AI, and less will be produced (assuming you were on the AI for a long enough period of time). However, some AI's, like Letrozole, suppress more than just estrogen. Letrozole suppresses Progesterone, too. So there could be a serious "rebound" effect from going off Letrozole, and estrogen may come back even harsher, since less progesterone will be there to oppose estrogen. Letrozole is considered a much harsher AI anyway, and makes many people feel lousy taking it.

But testosterone is the main androgen and is the aromatizable one. What happens to people that increase artificially (not necessarily via hormones, even high dose magnesium supplementation can raise T levels significantly) ? I mean nore precisely : what happens with all that testosterone afterwards?

 

[Makrosky]

I'm thinking also in people that is getting good results with DHEA like in haiduts cortinon or pansterone and some androsterone for AI. What will happen when they stop the andro?

 

[milkboi]

Push

 

[BigChad]

Excessive protein intake has been shown to decrease metabolic rate, decrease testosterone levels, and is associated with degenerative diseases in the intestine. I suspect that eating excess protein also drastically increases toxin-producing bacteria due to undigested peptides.

so what is the ideal protein intake? 1g per pound bodyweight?
is 220g protein a day while weighing 170 to 190 pounds okay?

I think Ray mentioned that he thinks 10mg are safe for a healthy, young male. When I was in bad shape, 10mg caused me to become aggressive and irretable - I assume that was from increased aromatization. Today, I can take 10mg daily with good results, but I would always start with sth like 2-5mg. The better you feel overall, the more likely it is that you can use larger amounts with good results.

I believe Ray mentioned 15mg a day at most for anyone, but regardless, generally suggested 5mg, and mentioned if you want to do more than 5mg, like 15mg a day, to split it up into three doses of 5mg, equally split apart during the day?

But testosterone is the main androgen and is the aromatizable one. What happens to people that increase artificially (not necessarily via hormones, even high dose magnesium supplementation can raise T levels significantly) ? I mean nore precisely : what happens with all that testosterone afterwards?

why/how does magnesium significantly raise T levels? what mechanism does it do this by and how much is considered high dose.
also is 1g protein per pound bodyweight good? I think Ray ate like 150 grams while weighing 170?