Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

[Westside PUFAs]

I'm also really surprised. It is common statement from doctors. Who have no idea about biology and nutrition. But someone who supposed to know something about human body can't say something like that.. It's insane....

You keep breaking forum rules yet again by attacking me.

My statement is still true and you've yet to refute it:

"The gallbladder is not an essential organ, which means a person can live normally without a gallbladder. Once the gallbladder is removed, bile flows out of the liver through the hepatic and common bile ducts and directly into the duodenum, instead of being stored in the gallbladder. Surgery to remove the gallbladder, called cholecystectomy, is one of the most common operations performed on adults in the United States."

 

[Mufasa]

You keep breaking forum rules yet again by attacking me.

My statement is still true and you've yet to refute it:

"The gallbladder is not an essential organ, which means a person can live normally without a gallbladder. Once the gallbladder is removed, bile flows out of the liver through the hepatic and common bile ducts and directly into the duodenum, instead of being stored in the gallbladder. Surgery to remove the gallbladder, called cholecystectomy, is one of the most common operations performed on adults in the United States."

Many things are non essential. Carbohydrates and glycine are officially non essential as well ...

 

[lindsay]

@Westside PUFAs - Doctor's and surgeons regularly tell people they don't need many organs to live a normal healthy life.
I don't know a single person who's had their gallbladder removed who doesn't have an "I can't eat that" list. The good thing about that is, I avoided fried foods and PUFA for many years.

 

[lindsay]

Nutritional Keys for Intestinal Barrier Modulation
Gln: glutamine
Trp: tryptophan
TER: transepithelial electrical resistance, that measure paracellular ions flux (69).

Thanks for sharing that! The part about raw foods versus cooked foods (especially in reference to meat and fish) was super interesting! Also, I assume this translates to eggs as well. And dairy. And cabbage? Who knew about cabbage. All those cultures who eat sour cabbage probably knew it was good for the gut forever. When I lived in Russia, I ate cabbage a lot. Mostly the sour stuff. At first, it gave me diarrhea, but then my gut adjusted to it and I tolerated it well. I should probably add it back into my routine.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Doctor's and surgeons regularly tell people they don't need many organs to live a normal healthy life.

Many? Which ones?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Many? Which ones?

well let's see. Thymus, appendix, gall bladder, adenoids, spleen, teeth, parts of stomach are apparently unnecessary :), parts of the colon are unnecessary apparently, and so it goes...I know I'm forgetting something...

 

[Westside PUFAs]

well let's see. Thymus, appendix, gall bladder, adenoids, spleen, teeth, parts of stomach are apparently unnecessary :), parts of the colon are unnecessary apparently, and so it goes...I know I'm forgetting something...

Not all of those are organs and not all are essential.

 

[lindsay]

Many? Which ones?

Ovaries are one of the big ones that come to mind, in addition to gallbladders, appendixes, and many of the things Ecstatic Hamster mentioned. I think they even remove part of livers sometimes, no? And then there is the donation of things like kidneys - because, hey - you only need one, right?

 

[YuraCZ]

Many things are non essential. Carbohydrates and glycine are officially non essential as well ...

This "non essential" statement is really funny. For example eyes are also non essential for life. ehm...

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks for sharing that! The part about raw foods versus cooked foods (especially in reference to meat and fish) was super interesting! Also, I assume this translates to eggs as well. And dairy. And cabbage? Who knew about cabbage. All those cultures who eat sour cabbage probably knew it was good for the gut forever. When I lived in Russia, I ate cabbage a lot. Mostly the sour stuff. At first, it gave me diarrhea, but then my gut adjusted to it and I tolerated it well. I should probably add it back into my routine.

If studies usually draw wrong conclusions, reviews are basically a collection of misinterpretations. I wish things were as simple as removing some goitrogens and lactic acid. It took me a long time to realize that even things that we consider safe and healthy can become the opposite depending on the context.
I suggest that you follow those references to confirm for yourself and trust your palate. If you read the same review again after some months, you'll probably screen the information differently anyway..

Edit: I wasn't going to post this, but now that I mentioned it, it reminded me of this:
Lactic Acid Permeabilizes Gram-Negative Bacteria by Disrupting the Outer Membrane

 

[Amazoniac]

One interesting thing that is worth commenting is that gram negative exploit the stability of saturated fats to pack their outer layer. On another thread I posted that one of their strategies is to straighen the unsaturated fats temporarily, something similar to CLA before they can manufacture on their own or incorporate from the environment.
The reason that it offers protection is that they can pack them tighter and basically turn the layer less permeable, so antimicrobials of any kind are more difficult to succeed. Contrary to that, if their membrane is unsaturated, it becomes more permeable, if we compared both on the same temperature. I once read an example of how this works as matches in a matchbox, which illustrates quite well.

I'm mentioning this because I guess that it's a relatively energy-expensive process that leaves a certain disavantage if they have to saturate their membranes on their own, because the insults from the environment keep coming. If dietary saturated fats are provided, the incorporation is simpler, it seems.
There's also the fact that many antimicrobials are much more potent on gram positive bacteria than gram negative, including medium-chain and long-chain saturated fats.

All of this can be relevant to the whole endotoxin-fats discussion..

 

[lindsay]

If studies usually draw wrong conclusions, reviews are basically a collection of misinterpretations. I wish things were as simple as removing some goitrogens and lactic acid. It took me a long time to realize that even things that we consider safe and healthy can become the opposite depending on the context.
I suggest that you follow those references to confirm for yourself and trust your palate. If you read the same review again after some months, you'll probably screen the information differently anyway..

Edit: I wasn't going to post this, but now that I mentioned it, it reminded me of this:
Lactic Acid Permeabilizes Gram-Negative Bacteria by Disrupting the Outer Membrane

I will have to read through the whole article - I just skimmed it briefly. The thing about fermented foods is, do they all contain lactic acid? I know a lot of fermented foods have lactic acid added to them, but traditionally, just salt and sometimes vinegar are added to the foods and then they break down themselves - this is how Russians make sour cabbage and pickles. They just refer to it as salted cabbage. I think that's how many fermented foods are made as well - just by allowing the food to break down naturally with salt and liquid.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I will have to read through the whole article - I just skimmed it briefly. The thing about fermented foods is, do they all contain lactic acid? I know a lot of fermented foods have lactic acid added to them, but traditionally, just salt and sometimes vinegar are added to the foods and then they break down themselves - this is how Russians make sour cabbage and pickles. They just refer to it as salted cabbage. I think that's how many fermented foods are made as well - just by allowing the food to break down naturally with salt and liquid.

most fermented foods (all of them?) have lactic acid and acetic acid and malic acid. Lots of those acids.

 

[Amazoniac]

I will have to read through the whole article - I just skimmed it briefly. The thing about fermented foods is, do they all contain lactic acid? I know a lot of fermented foods have lactic acid added to them, but traditionally, just salt and sometimes vinegar are added to the foods and then they break down themselves - this is how Russians make sour cabbage and pickles. They just refer to it as salted cabbage. I think that's how many fermented foods are made as well - just by allowing the food to break down naturally with salt and liquid.

After all this time, I still think that a bit of pickled foods as condiments won't do any harm, the lactic acid is not the only potential problem but it can be drained or not ingested in significant quantities. However, the fact that most kids don't like them is quite telling..
You can read the books by Nick Lane - tyw suggested them a long time ago - despite his name, he's not part of any boy band. It will give you a much clearer picture of energy, including fermentation in a broader sense..

 

[lindsay]

most fermented foods (all of them?) have lactic acid and acetic acid and malic acid. Lots of those acids.

After all this time, I still think that a bit of pickled foods as condiments won't do any harm, the lactic acid is not the only potential problem but it can be drained or not ingested in significant quantities. However, the fact that most kids don't like them is quite telling..
You can read the books by Nick Lane - tyw suggested them a long time ago - despite his name, he's not part of any boy band. It will give you a much clearer picture of energy, including fermentation in a broader sense..

I really, really love pickles though. Like LOVE pickles, and I have since childhood. And the brine. I could drink the pickle brine like juice. It's just vinegar and some spices after all. And what about cheese? RP is super into cheese, but it's also fermented. Darn fermented foods - they are all so incredibly salty and tasty! There are certain fermented foods that make me feel awful though - most yogurts I do not like at all. Only the Siggi's brand. And cottage cheese - not fond of that either. Russian tvorog is so much better and easier to digest, but then there is very little whey in tvorog.

Do you happen to know which book by Nick Lane tyw was referring to? I found his website, but he has a couple of books.

 

[tyw]

Quick notes

-----

"Essential" has evolved from being:

• initially defined as --> "cannot survive without"
• then to --> "cannot synthesize endogenously"
• and now to --> "required for optimal function"

Credit to Chris Masterjohn -- The Daily Lipid Podcast Episode 17: You Asked Me Anything About Methylation, Facebook Live, 06/25/16

I personally like to view these 3 definitions as distinct concepts => [Assert. De-complect. Falsify]. Then I ask questions regarding ALL those concepts, with respect to the context of the particular organism.

ie: The discussion of the "essentiality" of the gallbladder should revolve around a particular person. Useful questions will then be more akin to, "Can this person assimilate enough nutrition in the absence of a gallbladder?". The answer to such a question will change depending on the person's existing state of health, food tolerances and intolerances (eg: can they tolerate dairy casein?), etc ....

----

All of Nick Lane's books are good

'Life Ascending' is a higher-level analysis of existing evolutionary traits and how they could have come to evolve. It does take a bio-energetics perspective to each trait, and this would be the recommended book to start with.

For a low level analysis of mitochondria, 'Sex, Power, Suicide' is good, as is 'Oxygen'.

The more recent 'The Vital Question' takes those low level mechanics to the next level, and tries to explain how life evolved its existing set of metabolic functions.

.....

 

[lollipop]

All of Nick Lane's books are good

'Life Ascending' is a higher-level analysis of existing evolutionary traits and how they could have come to evolve. It does take a bio-energetics perspective to each trait, and this would be the recommended book to start with.

For a low level analysis of mitochondria, 'Sex, Power, Suicide' is good, as is 'Oxygen'.

The more recent 'The Vital Question' takes those low level mechanics to the next level, and tries to explain how life evolved its existing set of metabolic functions.

WoW...just looked at his site and read a few chapters, very interesting! Thank you @Amazoniac for mentioning him and @tyw for bringing him to the forum.

 

[lindsay]

ie: The discussion of the "essentiality" of the gallbladder should revolve around a particular person. Useful questions will then be more akin to, "Can this person assimilate enough nutrition in the absence of a gallbladder?". The answer to such a question will change depending on the person's existing state of health, food tolerances and intolerances (eg: can they tolerate dairy casein?), etc ....

I think you would have loved hearing Dewitt from Peatarian (so sad when he stopped posting there). His comments about the gallbladder were very helpful to me (since I no longer have mine) - unlike my doctors, he informed me that absorbing fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K) would be impaired for a person without a gallbladder (he also had a lot of other useful knowledge). So I started supplementing K2 at some point (after reading Denise Minger's story) and later began applying Vitamin E & A topically. Vitamin K2 and eating hard cheeses have strengthened my teeth and bones a lot - low fat dairy is useless, IMO. What's the point of getting rid of fat if you take away the vitamins? Like, I had deteriorating teeth and receding gumline from my vegetarian days (when I ate almost no protein and very little dairy) and I broke my wrist about 4 years ago and had difficulty getting strength back in both until I put dairy and K2 into my diet - something I have been doing now for about 2 years. I eat very little meat, but my teeth are very strong now, and my bones feel super strong too. High fat dairy has helped me greatly. But I also take Ox Bile, so that helps with digesting the fats, I think. I no longer vomit occasionally when eating fats (like I use too), so that's something.

 

[Parsifal]

well let's see. Thymus, appendix, gall bladder, adenoids, spleen, teeth, parts of stomach are apparently unnecessary :), parts of the colon are unnecessary apparently, and so it goes...I know I'm forgetting something...

Tonsils.

 

[Parsifal]

Thanks for sharing that! The part about raw foods versus cooked foods (especially in reference to meat and fish) was super interesting! Also, I assume this translates to eggs as well. And dairy. And cabbage? Who knew about cabbage. All those cultures who eat sour cabbage probably knew it was good for the gut forever. When I lived in Russia, I ate cabbage a lot. Mostly the sour stuff. At first, it gave me diarrhea, but then my gut adjusted to it and I tolerated it well. I should probably add it back into my routine.

I've tried CTRL + F but found nothing in the article regarding raw foods, cooked foods, meat and fish?