Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

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lollipop

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One more thing that is worth commenting is that people that have issues related to endotoxins after consuming starch assume that by eating, even if temporarily, a diet that consists mainly of starches, are going to make their situation worse and unbearable. However, after studying West's work in depth (available for free, here on the forum) you realize that sometimes the outcome from experiments like these is usually unexpected.
That exact diet is capable of providing enough nutrients and energy in an easily digested way without excess proteins to interact with bacteria in an already compromised metabolic state. Concerning problematic bacteria, what's left for microbes from properly prepared starches is a bit of resistant starch that will do the aforementioned job of providing a bit of carbs that hopefully will serve to shift the microbial balance. Just as capable as restoring the metabolism as the milk and orange juice diet.
I won't cite because you all know how many books are there devoted to starch-based diets and most of them have positive results in practice. In case the milk and oj diet didn't work for someone, even if you consider that it's against odds and counter-intuitive, I think it's worth considering the starch, fruit and vegetable approach. Making sure that you're getting proper micronutrition and supplementing if needed.

Again, I'm not taking sides of anything. This just seems to me a reasonable approach despite the resistance to it that we encounter here sometimes.

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Related to the previous post:
Lipopolysaccharides (LPS) of Oral Black-Pigmented Bacteria Induce Tumor Necrosis Factor Production by LPS-Refractory C3H/HeJ Macrophages in a Way Different from That of Salmonella LPS
I think it can be an option especially when nothing else seems to work and frankly there is no one solution that fits everyone. I have been eating a balance each meal between protein (eg: milk, cottage cheese, cheese, eggs, small amounts muscle meats, occasional shrimp and lobster), carbs (eg: occasional "approved" veggies, a raw carrot (not every day), potatoes - my fav), fructose carbs (fruit, honey), sat fat (eg in milk, butter, occasionally coconut oil, occasional extra virgin olive oil) eliminating obvious PUFA, grains, etc. This has rocked my gut and my metabolism as well...

In beginning of Peat had to heal liver from low carb eating. My increased fructose caused weight gain. That stopped and now slowly losing and feeling healthy. My gut had become way unbalanced and finally now is soooo much better. Used enzymes to help .
 
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tyw

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Good stuff @Amazoniac :smug::smuggrin::wtf:

Those are more plausible mechanics to guess at why people have varying gut responses to higher protein vs glucose vs fructose intake.

Personally, protein leads to overall poorer digestive function for me :bored:. Transit time is slowed, more potential for bloat, and sometimes changes in bristol stool score toward the lower values (closer to constipation). Glucose and fructose is fine ;) Sweet potatoes are good for my gut personally. If I bothered to do a gut-biome analysis, I'd probably find something in line with the mechanics you posted. For now, I will just leave this as speculation

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And yes, I'm fully on board with LPS as an acute inflammatory signal that is used for great good ;).

Note that Peat refers to all inflammation by their old terminology -- "Injury Potential" -- which is literally seen as the accumulation of positive charge on the surface of the cells at the site of injury. Without this potential difference, no healing occurs; it is both a signal, and an energetic gradient, to get tissues healed back up to the healthy baseline.

Details can be found in Robert O. Becker's 'The Body Electric'. The degree to which he saw huge acute spikes in the injury potential, was the degree to which organisms could regenerate, and Salamanders, which displayed the largest acute spikes in injury potential, were the organisms that could regenerate entire limbs (vs something like a frog, which had a weak injury potential, and no limb regeneration capacity).

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jaa

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My digestion has gone from sporadically mediocre to poor to almost perfect since I read tyw's post on short grain rice and waxy potatoes. I've upped by intake of those and decreased fat and sugar a little and have never felt better. :thumbsup:

And without attempting to restrict calories my weight has been unexpectedly falling off with no noticeable loses in lean muscle mass.
 
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lollipop

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My digestion has gone from sporadically mediocre to poor to almost perfect since I read tyw's post on short grain rice and waxy potatoes. I've upped by intake of those and decreased fat and sugar a little and have never felt better. :thumbsup:

And without attempting to restrict calories my weight has been unexpectedly falling off with no noticeable loses in lean muscle mass.
I AGREE @jaa after I read @tyw post on waxy potatoes, I also looked up and made full switch - though mostly had been eating the red and new varieties - so was almost there! Fat consumption for me went from high % to moderate atm and lowered muscle meats and increased cottage cheese. BIG difference in gut. Also decreased honey and OJ consumption and use mostly fresh fruits because ripe and good in Dallas these days...
 
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However, after studying West's work in depth (available for free, here on the forum) you realize that sometimes the outcome from experiments like these is usually unexpected.

Thanks. That is what I've been saying all along. I highly agree with the person who posted the "diversity in diet may be hurting us all" post.
 

Tarmander

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My digestion has gone from sporadically mediocre to poor to almost perfect since I read tyw's post on short grain rice and waxy potatoes. I've upped by intake of those and decreased fat and sugar a little and have never felt better. :thumbsup:

And without attempting to restrict calories my weight has been unexpectedly falling off with no noticeable loses in lean muscle mass.

Can you link me? I thought it was the other way around...long grain rice...

Edit: Nevermind I found it. I can't believe I mixed up short and long grain rice. I have been consuming large amounts of long grain brown rice, and have had some improvements that you mentioned, but also some endotoxin issues.
 
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B

Braveheart

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Yes, your experience is consistent with all the mechanisms I stated :) . Fat can only transport existing endotoxin in the small intestine to the rest of the body. If there is no endotoxin to begin with, then there is nothing to transport.

Now we need to qualify what your "zero fat diet" meant. The mechanisms of:
- chylomicrons transporting endotoxin from the small intestine to the rest of the body
- production of endotoxin by bacteria in the small intestine.

Are completely separate from each other.

This is why I said many times that "zero fat" doesn't mean anything for endotoxin risk. A "zero fat" diet with fermentable materials like pectin or FODMAPS is still a breeding ground for bacteria which can produce endotoxin.

The control experiment would be zero fat, zero fermentable carbohydrate. This is not an easy practical experiment to run, and involves a decent amount of food control. (Sidenote: that said, my regular diet is basically zero fermentable carbohydrates ;) , and very low fat)

Even then, the definition of a "fermentable carbohydrate" can be murky. For me, pure amylopectin basically just gets absorbed very quickly -- I lose the feeling of fullness very quickly, blood sugar spikes very quickly, and recovers to baseline very quickly ("very quickly" meaning like 2-3 hours for even a 2,000kcal meal). All indications of gut health seem to indicate that this is not going to give bacteria the opportunity for fermentation.

High Amylose on the other hand, gives me issues with bloating. No basmati rice please! (Just search "tyw rice" for my previous posts elaborating on these topics in detail)

All you can do with these mechanics, is to understand them, and then think about future experiments.


And lastly (and IMPORTANTLY :trophy:) do note that the small intestine is a very high turnover system -- border cells which only last for a few days. This makes the response to a particular molecule very different as "conditions of existence" change. For someone with a history of gut issues, constant monitoring and constant tweaking is required, and the assumption that "what works today will work tomorrow" is not valid.

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This chylomicron-mediated endotoxin transport mechanism does not come into play at all in the large intestine. There, we have to look at other factors, like butyrate production by bacteria (which is likely beneficial as far as I can tell).

Large intestine bacterial populations are something which needs to be discussed in a separate thread, with research and mechanics specific to that.

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I'm sorry...why won't this work as you state: (Just search "tyw rice" for my previous posts elaborating on these topics in detail)
Brain fog or just ignorance...don't do too well searching this forum yet.
 

Blossom

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I'm sorry...why won't this work as you state: (Just search "tyw rice" for my previous posts elaborating on these topics in detail)
Brain fog or just ignorance...don't do too well searching this forum yet.
Just put the word rice in the 'search' box and the username tyw in the 'posted by member' box and then click on the search icon.
 
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Braveheart

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Just put the word rice in the 'search' box and the username tyw in the 'posted by member' box and then click on the search icon.
'
Thank you Blossom! No wonder I didn't get it...it's too easy! I do that all the time...just got thrown off for some reason...thanks
 

Blossom

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'
Thank you Blossom! No wonder I didn't get it...it's too easy! I do that all the time...just got thrown off for some reason...thanks
Happens to me all the time. I think it's something about being a Viking.:p
 
L

lollipop

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Happens to me all the time. I think it's something about being a Viking.:p
Though joking, I wonder if you haven't hit upon something as it relates to this thread @Blossom? Perhaps ancestry might play a small role in how starches and proteins are experienced in an individual's body. I know it is the ugly word "genes", and I agree Epigenetics empowers us to go beyond any genetic limitations AND I wonder if it could account for some of the vast differences seen on this forum?

edit: saw @Koveras post on the potato=good thread.
 
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Blossom

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Perhaps ancestry might play a small role in how starches and proteins are experienced in an individual's body.
I think your right Lisa. There is no denying the fact that my ancestry played a role in my development of celiac disease. I'm sure it wasn't the only factor but it was definitely a contributor. I even tried reintroducing wheat in the form of sourdough bread after a year of very strict 'peating' and seemed to do okay for awhile until I suddenly crashed myself completely so I know there is more to it for me than just metabolism and hormone balance.
 

Birdie

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I think your right Lisa. There is no denying the fact that my ancestry played a role in my development of celiac disease. I'm sure it wasn't the only factor but it was definitely a contributor. I even tried reintroducing wheat in the form of sourdough bread after a year of very strict 'peating' and seemed to do okay for awhile until I suddenly crashed myself completely so I know there is more to it for me than just metabolism and hormone balance.
Oh, thanks for these thoughts. I'm a Viking too. Have been off gluten for many years, but was just thinking of trying sourdough. Maybe I'll just skip that. I'm not celiac btw, just sensitive to gluten.

Have been using a little short grain white rice (thanks @tyw for the idea) but no conclusions so far.
Long grain puts me in craving mode.

Am also nightshade intolerant, so no potatoes for me.
And I'm beginning to wonder about corn which I have been eating.
We'll see how the short gr rice goes.
 

InChristAlone

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We usually eat Jasmine rice from thailand, is that good? Any special way to cook it? I usually just follow the directions. What do people eat with the rice? Its basically just starch.
 

YuraCZ

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Thanks. That is what I've been saying all along. I highly agree with the person who posted the "diversity in diet may be hurting us all" post.
Westside Pufa I'm curious what you think about people like Dr.mcdougall who promotes NO FATS at all. Just starches, vegetables and maybe some fruits. What I don't understand on this diet is. Toxins are released from the body(besides sweating and urine) through the liver -->gallbladder-->bile right? If there is so little fat in the diet. It basically means low bile flow therefore low toxin elimination through the bile right? Now, I can see how it works or can works for healthy people. So people without toxin exposure. People without past of bad eating habits, drug use etc.. So for example people from Okinawa and their low fat sweet potato diet etc.. But how can dr.Mcdougall treat on this basically zero fat diet for example obese woman with high estrogen, sluggish bile with lots of concentrated cholesterol, maybe gallstones.. In my opinion in those cases liver needs for example olive oil on a daily basis to squeeze and flush overtime all that garbage from the liver and gallbladder.. Basically my point is. How can someone eliminate toxins from the gallbladder if there is no fat to squeeze gallbladder. There are also studies where people on a low fat diet develop gallstones during weight loss..
 
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Sure.

I love McDougall but I don’t agree with everything he says. I don’t agree with every he says. Did I mention that I don’t agree with everything he says? Just like I don’t agree with everything Ray Peat says. Just like I don’t agree with everything any of these people (non-nutrition) say; Sam Harris, Milo Yiannopoulos, Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchens, George Carlin, Dave Chapelle, Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, Louis C.K., Joe Rogan, Bob Marley, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, etc. I love all of those people but I don’t agree with everything they say. I hope you see the point I’m making. Just because I’m a starchatarian doesn’t mean I agree with everything Johhny says. We all have people that influence us and we take things piece by piece from others and adjust it to our own lives. I have to make that point because I’ve been taken out of context. And because I asked Peat this, people assumed I have a “vegan” agenda. I do not. I was genuinely curious as to what Peat thought about a special, specific kind of vegan diet. I benefit in no way, financially or otherwise, if you decide to put a piece of fat free boiled potato in your mouth or a piece of the highest fat content cheese you can find. McDougall is 70 years old. Give the guy a break. Starch haters will cry “he looks old.” Yea, he’s 70. That’s more than double my age. My response to those people is, let me see you make it to 70, and not be obese, hypertensive, arthritic, and on depression meds, all the while surviving a stroke at the age of 18. He’s not really vegan because he eats turkey on Thanksgiving with his family and I’m sure he sneaks in some lean meats throughout the year as well. He just has to promote a certain lifestyle so he can get his patients to understand him. He’s working with people who are on their way out (dying). He and his colleagues at True North are the last resort for many people. But all of that aside, my favorite thing about him is that he is one of very, very few who is fighting against the misguided war on carbohydrates. I would also put Peat in that camp as well, in the carbohydrates sense. Even if you don't like starch, how could a Peat fan not like this video?: Cure Type 2 Diabetes With Sugar & White Rice - Dr. McDougall

His work helped me realize that I can eat all the starch I want so long as I keep my fat intake low.

I digress.

What you said he promotes is about right. This is what he promotes and it has been translated to 30 languages. That’s his whole program for free. Pretty generous of him.

I think the fat made from starch in the gut provides the fat you mention. I asked Peat “what is the raw material that we make fats from if we don’t ingest any overt fats?

"We make fats from sugar, starch, and amino acids. Even the brain has enzymes to make new fats."-RP

Interesting.

When I look at the edible sources of fats for humans, I just don't see the benefit in eating more than small amounts. Fats are not good sources of nutrients, even saturated fats. (yes, rice is also not a good source of nutrients but it is a source for the most important nutrient, glucose, and other starch sources have many nutrients) Dairy fat naturally only has small amounts of A and k2. Coconut does has lauric acid which is probably good. Macadamia nuts are a source of a special kind of MUFA, I forget what it's called. But I don't see the point in high, or even moderate fat diets.

How does this happen, how did this woman eliminate toxins on low fat, as you inquire, published in the prestigious BMJ?

Low Fat Diet/fasting Reverses 42 Yr Old Woman's Cancer, Published In British Medical Jounral

Anecdotal. I know.
 
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InChristAlone

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@Westside PUFAs could you address the gallbladder issue on low fat? I eat quite a lot of fat as a breastfeeding Mom and wonder if it's causing some of my issues. Peat always said to add butter to starch but many conflicting viewpoints on this. Plus he recommends ice cream for quite a lot of issues, but I'll admit several months of haagen dazs every evening and I now have cellulite for the first time in my life. Not even overeating calories either!
 

YuraCZ

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lol you are so aggressive.. I was just asking what you think or how you think that it works(low fat diet). For example in case of gallbladder issues, gallstones due to estrogen.. So please relax. My post wasn't about vegans vs paleo, fat vs carbs or whatever.. I'm simply curious. How low fat can work for gallbladder-bile flow issues.. Because I have those issues. I would like to eat nothing but cheap starches and be healthy again. But I don't see how this can work. I have zero interest to be in some hardcore diet group. I'm 29 and everything what I want is to be healthy.. Like you said. I don't agree with everything what somebody says. But I'm willing to eat ANYTHING. From worms to nothing but grass or whatever for health. But it must make some sense.. So like I said. I'm simply curious how can work this low fat approach. Specifically for liver, gallbladder issues.
 

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