E2 Is Not The Problem

[Jing]

I suppose it could have been. Although it was from a Mexican pharmacy and was in the Astra Zeneca box in blister packs and the pills had little markings on them. The package was identical to the Astra Zeneca Arimidex packaging. I feel like that would be difficult to fake. It's not like it was some liquid bluesky peptides shady brand.

It's just odd not to feel a negative or a positive I would assume you would definitely end up feeling a negative eventually from that much arimidex especially with no additional testosterone, even on high dose testosterone I feel the difference from just 0.5mg

 

[b555]

That Facebook group is the definition of dogma and is not somewhere you should be taking medical advice from. Danny Bossa has zero formal education, severe gyno, is incredibly quick to anger and just repeats the words of better men without adding anything to the discussion himself. Steven Devos is a dermatologist who looks to be suffering from alopeica universalis, which tells you all you need to know imo. Jordan Grant seems like an intelligent and reasonable man who I have a lot of time for.

Should aromatase inhibitors be used? In my opinion, no -- not because estradiol is a beneficial hormone that you want as high as possible, but because they do absolutely nothing to address the underlying pathology which led to excessive aromatization taking hold. Taking an ai to reduce estrogen is akin to taking thyroid whilst still eating 1500 calories a day and running marathons: of course it isn't going to make you feel good. A poor response to an aromatase inhibitor cannot be used as evidence that estrogen excess is desirable.

Back when I used to post in that group, I had multiple debates with Danny, the doctors and Gil. Their entire approach is based upon the premise that the rate of aromatization is genetically determined, so by definition, nobody is an over-aromatizer, and estrogen, specifically estradiol, should therefore be left to "fall where it falls" when using exogenous testosterone. This idea is fundamentally wrong. Aromatase inhibitors are not the answer to this issue, but likewise, estrogen excess should not be swept under the carpet.

Every time I would dispute these claims whilst offering an alternative view, I'd be inundated with personal messages from men who'd been following their advice for a year + and saw zero benefit, or had actively regressed. Most men in that group, including many of the doctors / admins, still rely on daily low dose ciallis to get their **** hard -- does that sound like a healthy person to you?

If you want to use looks for examples. What about HAIDUT ?

I do agree with what you wrote though

I think they like the extra boost cialis brings them. I think there is a lot more success stories on those boards than in peat forums... ( i like both)

I may even try to wean off TRT

 

[b555]

That's because testosterone is an endocrine hormone, meaning it is produced by a gland and enters the blood stream to travel to it's target tissue. Estradiol, on the other hand, is a paracrine hormone in men, meaning it is produced and used in it's tissue of origin -- i.e, it does not need to travel in the blood stream to reach it's target tissue, as it is directly produced in the tissue itself via aromatization.

This is why serum testosterone is a good measure of testosterone status, whilst serum estradiol is not a good measure of actual estrogenic load.

this is why they recommend to not even test estrogen. and if you block it maybe your blocking it to important tissues... what do you think of that?

Also what do you think about the idea that since the environment, food etc is so contaiminated its not even really possible to become truly optimized without hormones, like testosterone, thyroid, etc

 

[b555]

Because popping an ai does nothing to fix the actual problem -- of course it'll make you feel worse.

but how do fix the actual problem? Are you against TRT in general?
Right now im doing 70-80mg test a week. I feel better at lower dosages.

Clearly its not eating pufa, high carb, etc. at least for me that did zero. I tried most of this stuff before TRT

 

[b555]

You sure it was legit it would be very unlikely to feel nothing from that dose.

@Jing whats your current protocol right now?

 

[Jing]

@Jing whats your current protocol right now?

120mg test 2x a week.

 

[b555]

120mg test 2x a week.

how do you feel at that? Thats a good dose. No AI? DHEA, thyroid? etc?

 

[Jing]

how do you feel at that? Thats a good dose. No AI? DHEA, thyroid? etc?

No just testosterone, feel ok I guess but I don't really notice much from testosterone tbh lol thinking of trying low dose maybe 70-80mg see how I feel on that.

 

[TheBeard]

The whole testosterone optimization field is such a farce. Those guys who claim they know what they’re talking about when all they do is repeat some decade old nonsense.

I’ve been offered a position in one of those anti aging clinics as a patient care coordinator and even though the money is good, the whole dogma surrounding “HRT” is a god damn joke... it is beyond me how we can solemnly tell someone they’re “secondary hypogonadal” and not even bother searching secondary for what? What’s primarily causing trashed hormones? Nah, just inject T and pop more pills when adverse events happen. I would never want anyone to have suppressed HPTA unless they’re into legit bodybuilding. And even then they wouldn’t be injecting more than TRT + other (better) anabolics

I agree that TRT is never the panacea to someone's health issues.
But in the absence of better options and without having identified what their hypogonadism is secondary to, and with people not knowing about health concepts, this forum, or other relevant advice, there's a chance exogenous testosterone could have a net benefit on their condition rather than accepting low T symptoms.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still looking for the profound causes of my energy deficiency, but I can't lie I live a better life when on testosterone to mask my fatigue.
By the way, after experimenting with discontinuing T for a month after 9 months of continuous use at around 300mg/week, I bounced back just fine to my pre-TRT levels.

 

[b555]

No just testosterone, feel ok I guess but I don't really notice much from testosterone tbh lol thinking of trying low dose maybe 70-80mg see how I feel on that.

I did a lot of different protocols with TRT and AI. I seem to do best on 2x injections 70-80mg.. I even though about trying 60mg a week.

 

[Jing]

I did a lot of different protocols with TRT and AI. I seem to do best on 2x injections 70-80mg.. I even though about trying 60mg a week.

Yh it seems many people say they do best on lower dosages.

 

[Broken man]

That Facebook group is the definition of dogma and is not somewhere you should be taking medical advice from. Danny Bossa has zero formal education, severe gyno, is incredibly quick to anger and just repeats the words of better men without adding anything to the discussion himself. Steven Devos is a dermatologist who looks to be suffering from alopeica universalis, which tells you all you need to know imo. Jordan Grant seems like an intelligent and reasonable man who I have a lot of time for.

Should aromatase inhibitors be used? In my opinion, no -- not because estradiol is a beneficial hormone that you want as high as possible, but because they do absolutely nothing to address the underlying pathology which led to excessive aromatization taking hold. Taking an ai to reduce estrogen is akin to taking thyroid whilst still eating 1500 calories a day and running marathons: of course it isn't going to make you feel good. A poor response to an aromatase inhibitor cannot be used as evidence that estrogen excess is desirable.

Back when I used to post in that group, I had multiple debates with Danny, the doctors and Gil. Their entire approach is based upon the premise that the rate of aromatization is genetically determined, so by definition, nobody is an over-aromatizer, and estrogen, specifically estradiol, should therefore be left to "fall where it falls" when using exogenous testosterone. This idea is fundamentally wrong. Aromatase inhibitors are not the answer to this issue, but likewise, estrogen excess should not be swept under the carpet.

Every time I would dispute these claims whilst offering an alternative view, I'd be inundated with personal messages from men who'd been following their advice for a year + and saw zero benefit, or had actively regressed. Most men in that group, including many of the doctors / admins, still rely on daily low dose ciallis to get their **** hard -- does that sound like a healthy person to you?

What would you do for high estrogen than?

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I agree that TRT is never the panacea to someone's health issues.
But in the absence of better options and without having identified what their hypogonadism is secondary to, and with people not knowing about health concepts, this forum, or other relevant advice, there's a chance exogenous testosterone could have a net benefit on their condition rather than accepting low T symptoms.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still looking for the profound causes of my energy deficiency, but I can't lie I live a better life when on testosterone to mask my fatigue.
By the way, after experimenting with discontinuing T for a month after 9 months of continuous use at around 300mg/week, I bounced back just fine to my pre-TRT levels.

I agree that if you do it with a reasonable mindset there’s a chance that it’s vastly beneficial. I had in mind the overtrained dudes who think they’re deficient because they can’t squat 500 3 times a week anymore.

When things point towards deeper issues... chronic stress or dissatisfaction or other symptoms... might as well cut to the chase and optimize T for sure.

 

[schultz]

It's just odd not to feel a negative or a positive I would assume you would definitely end up feeling a negative eventually from that much arimidex especially with no additional testosterone, even on high dose testosterone I feel the difference from just 0.5mg

I wonder if it actually has to do with the fact that I wasn't taking some kind of external hormone like T? If you think about it, most guys are taking an AI while also taking a hormone or two. So when they say they are getting sore joints or something maybe it is some kind of combination effect. And most women are taking like 1mg a day. I'm not sure how that would work, but if the AI was affecting synthesis of upstream or downstream hormones at the same time as an external hormone was also affecting hormones by reducing endogenous production, it could be reducing certain protective hormone metabolites excessively. We don't even know that much about some of these downstream hormones and there are dozens of them.

Just theorizing.

Edit: or maybe I have a super liver? I do drink a ton of coffee lol

 

[Jing]

I wonder if it actually has to do with the fact that I wasn't taking some kind of external hormone like T? If you think about it, most guys are taking an AI while also taking a hormone or two. So when they say they are getting sore joints or something maybe it is some kind of combination effect. And most women are taking like 1mg a day. I'm not sure how that would work, but if the AI was affecting synthesis of upstream or downstream hormones at the same time as an external hormone was also affecting hormones by reducing endogenous production, it could be reducing certain protective hormone metabolites excessively. We don't even know that much about some of these downstream hormones and there are dozens of them.

Just theorizing.

Edit: or maybe I have a super liver? I do drink a ton of coffee lol

Yh I don't know but I would just assume with no exogenous test estrogen would get super low from an ai

 

[b555]

I agree that TRT is never the panacea to someone's health issues.
But in the absence of better options and without having identified what their hypogonadism is secondary to, and with people not knowing about health concepts, this forum, or other relevant advice, there's a chance exogenous testosterone could have a net benefit on their condition rather than accepting low T symptoms.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still looking for the profound causes of my energy deficiency, but I can't lie I live a better life when on testosterone to mask my fatigue.
By the way, after experimenting with discontinuing T for a month after 9 months of continuous use at around 300mg/week, I bounced back just fine to my pre-TRT levels.

so you’re currently not on trt?

i was thinking of stopping trt, but i would do a pct

 

[5a-DHP]

I agree that TRT is never the panacea to someone's health issues.
But in the absence of better options and without having identified what their hypogonadism is secondary to, and with people not knowing about health concepts, this forum, or other relevant advice, there's a chance exogenous testosterone could have a net benefit on their condition rather than accepting low T symptoms.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still looking for the profound causes of my energy deficiency, but I can't lie I live a better life when on testosterone to mask my fatigue.
By the way, after experimenting with discontinuing T for a month after 9 months of continuous use at around 300mg/week, I bounced back just fine to my pre-TRT levels.

Agree with everything you wrote. For the average middle aged dude who has zero knowledge about physiology, nutrition and the cohort of factors required to actually restore health, testosterone supplementation can make a big difference in overall wellbeing. It's definitely not optimal, nor is it even safe imo, but for that demographic it's better than the alternative of spiraling into the fragility of old age. In a perfect world doctors would actually know enough to do things the proper way, but as everyone on this forums knows, it's just not the case.

From the little I've seen of your testosterone-related posts, you've never claimed it's a panacea, you've never claimed low testosterone in isolation is the actual problem itself, and you're open that your use of higher doses isn't physiological or risk free. As I mentioned in my earlier comment, it's your body and you can do what you want -- absolutely no judgment from me there, because I've done the same in the past for my own reasons.

The problem that I have with testosterone use is from people like Bossa directly promoting very high doses of testosterone, and subsequently extremely high levels of estradiol, suppressed progesterone, pregnenolone, dhea, etc, as directly health-promoting, which it just isn't. He will also quickly suppress and mock the likes of Dr Mark Gordon who suggest that upstream hormone supplementation is needed alongside hpta shutdown, despite having zero, and I mean zero, knowledge of even basic physiology himself. The reason I have so much time for Jordan Grant is because he's at least open to a non-dogmatic discussion -- I had a long chat with him about the use of progesterone alongside trt, and whilst he currently doesn't think it should be used, he was cognizant enough to admit that there isn't enough evidence to determine whether it is or isn't beneficial. This is contrary to Bossa and Keith Nichols, who immediately shut it down in an aggressive, condescending and authoritarian manor.

 

[5a-DHP]

this is why they recommend to not even test estrogen. and if you block it maybe your blocking it to important tissues... what do you think of that?

Also what do you think about the idea that since the environment, food etc is so contaiminated its not even really possible to become truly optimized without hormones, like testosterone, thyroid, etc

It's one of the few things I agree with that group on. Whilst estradiol isn't the beneficial hormone they tout it to be, it is still absolutely required in sufficient amounts for good health; the same applies to cortisol, aldosterone, serotonin, etc. It's easy to get the impression from Haidut and Peat et al that the hormones of stress are pure evil, and that taking them as low as possible is desirable, but it's just not the case.

The estrogen you're detecting on a serum reading is the accumulation of whatever is leaking out of the peripheral tissue, with each tissue contributing differing amounts to the systemic pool. When you dose an ai based upon a serum reading, you're not accounting for the tissues that have extremely low levels of aromatase, which could potentially be completely devoid of all estrogenic activity as ai's are not tissue-specific drugs like certain SERMs are (I don't think SERMs should be used, either).

Yes, the environment is bad, but I think if you take the right precautions you can mostly mitigate it. Jay Campbell thinks his low test is environmental whilst simultaneously purusing every other day fasts, going low carb / keto, taking metformin and drinking his own urine for years -- yeah, definitely the edc's causing the problem, Jay.

If you take testosterone whilst you're low thyroid and generally metabolically ****88, you probably won't feel much better. Said 'gurus' then interpret this as "oh, it must be androgen resistance from edc's -- gotta increase the dose to overcome it!", so they start megadosing. If you don't feel well on trt with a total testosterone of 850 ng/dL, but taking it to 1500 ng/dL makes you feel better, the supraphysiological levels are just masking whatever the actual problem is, whereas the Bossa group take the reductionist mindset of "oh, guess I just need more testosterone to feel well".

Taking adderall will improve brain fog for most over the short term -- I guess all along people with brain fog just had an adderall deficiency! I understand testosterone is endogenously produced, adderall is a drug, etc, etc, but it's the same ridiculous mindset.

 

[b555]

You’re certainly knowledgeable on this. Whats your current diet and protocol

i agree with you. So you think progesterone should be used with trt?

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Jay Campbell is such an airhead lmao