E2 Is Not The Problem

[TheBeard]

When you say AI I'm assuming it was a drug of some sort? Those tend to be hard on the liver. Whats bad for the liver is bad for the organism.

Safer options...vit E, aspirin, progesterone. These all happen to improve liver function as well.

But if you're young and healthy and your liver functions well, those may not be necessary.

Hmmm no...the issue with AIs is not the hepatotoxicity, it's, well...the AI property.
I don't feel like death on many meds that are way more harmful to the liver than aromasin.
However, I do feel like death on aromasin.

 

[b555]

TRT Optimization with Steven Devos?

That one and several others.

 

[mrchibbs]

I don't think I have ever read or heard him mention anything beneficial about estrogen. He does not leave you with the impression that estrogen is in any way vital for any bodily process.

Oh but he has. Read his books, including Nutrition for Women, where he covers his understanding of estrogen.

The reason why he doesn't address its necessity is because its virtually never deficient in modern humans.

 

[b555]

so you haven’t got any estradiol bloodwork?

Yes. It's been as low as 7 and high as 110... Usually its around 40-55 now, depending on my TRT dosage and frequency.

 

[boris]

I don't think I have ever read or heard him mention anything beneficial about estrogen. He does not leave you with the impression that estrogen is in any way vital for any bodily process.

He warns about an excess and the fraudulent industry selling it as supplements. Of course he still recognizes it‘s essentiality to the functioning of our body. I heard him talk in interviews about it‘s role in preparing the uterus for gestation and that estrogen is a deciding factor for male development of the fetus.

Estrogen has it‘s roles, the problem is when it’s not kept in check by progesterone.

 

[sladerunner69]

Oh but he has. Read his books, including Nutrition for Women, where he covers his understanding of estrogen.

The reason why he doesn't address its necessity is because its virtually never deficient in modern humans.

Why would I read that? I am a man, can't you see!!! That is very interesting though, I will have to look into it.

 

[mrchibbs]

Why would I read that? I am a man, can't you see!!! That is very interesting though, I will have to look into it.

hahaha

jokes aside I think NFW has some of his best ideas.

 

[TheBeard]

That one and several others.

Namely?

 

[mrchibbs]

He warns about an excess and the fraudulent industry selling it as supplements. Of course he still recognizes it‘s essentiality to the functioning of our body. I heard him talk in interviews about it‘s role in preparing the uterus for gestation and that estrogen is a deciding factor for male development of the fetus.

Estrogen has it‘s roles, the problem is when it’s not kept in check by progesterone.

Yes, estrogen causes growth in the uterine tissues, to prepare for the upcoming pregnancy. Progesterone has a role of balancing or stopping that excess growth, and/or dissolving this tissue when the egg isn't ''fertilized'', causing bleeding. Women who are severely stressed (hypothyroid) tend to not have enough progesterone to oppose the estrogen, and they get endometriosis.

Which I think is indicative of the dangerous effects of uncontrolled growth -cancer- that estrogen can have.

When I heard Ray talk about the masculinizing features of estrogen in the fetus, I burst out laughing cause it's so completely opposite to popular knowledge of it being the feminine hormone. Made me realize how much of it is straight up bogus narratives.

 

[JKX]

Hmmm no...the issue with AIs is not the hepatotoxicity, it's, well...the AI property.
I don't feel like death on many meds that are way more harmful to the liver than aromasin.
However, I do feel like death on aromasin.

You may be right, I've never taken an AI drug and never would. Its no doubt more complex than I made out and you have personal experience so thanks for the comment.

But even a quick google search shows aromasin appears to raise liver enzymes. So that must at least be part of the equation?

Two things I'm definately over sensitive about... clean liver and clean gut. If more folks focused on these 2 as a priority, health benefits would come far more quickly.

 

[schultz]

Try popping an AI and tell me you don't feel like death

I took Anastrozole (astra zeneca brand) at 1/4mg EOD for approximately a year. It didn't really do anything negative or positive. The only reason I took it so long was because they sent me two packs by mistake so I had extra and I thought I might as well use it up. Anyway, from what I've read, 1/4mg EOD is a pretty high dose for someone who is not taking TRT or some anabolic steroid.

 

[5a-DHP]

That one and several others.

That Facebook group is the definition of dogma and is not somewhere you should be taking medical advice from. Danny Bossa has zero formal education, severe gyno, is incredibly quick to anger and just repeats the words of better men without adding anything to the discussion himself. Steven Devos is a dermatologist who looks to be suffering from alopeica universalis, which tells you all you need to know imo. Jordan Grant seems like an intelligent and reasonable man who I have a lot of time for.

Should aromatase inhibitors be used? In my opinion, no -- not because estradiol is a beneficial hormone that you want as high as possible, but because they do absolutely nothing to address the underlying pathology which led to excessive aromatization taking hold. Taking an ai to reduce estrogen is akin to taking thyroid whilst still eating 1500 calories a day and running marathons: of course it isn't going to make you feel good. A poor response to an aromatase inhibitor cannot be used as evidence that estrogen excess is desirable.

Back when I used to post in that group, I had multiple debates with Danny, the doctors and Gil. Their entire approach is based upon the premise that the rate of aromatization is genetically determined, so by definition, nobody is an over-aromatizer, and estrogen, specifically estradiol, should therefore be left to "fall where it falls" when using exogenous testosterone. This idea is fundamentally wrong. Aromatase inhibitors are not the answer to this issue, but likewise, estrogen excess should not be swept under the carpet.

Every time I would dispute these claims whilst offering an alternative view, I'd be inundated with personal messages from men who'd been following their advice for a year + and saw zero benefit, or had actively regressed. Most men in that group, including many of the doctors / admins, still rely on daily low dose ciallis to get their **** hard -- does that sound like a healthy person to you?

 

[5a-DHP]

Indeed, however i think its quite a good point to state that this quite often is applied only to serum e2 etc levels while for example a high serum total testosterone level is many times considered the gold standard of male health and tissue androgens etc arent even mentioned

That's because testosterone is an endocrine hormone, meaning it is produced by a gland and enters the blood stream to travel to it's target tissue. Estradiol, on the other hand, is a paracrine hormone in men, meaning it is produced and used in it's tissue of origin -- i.e, it does not need to travel in the blood stream to reach it's target tissue, as it is directly produced in the tissue itself via aromatization.

This is why serum testosterone is a good measure of testosterone status, whilst serum estradiol is not a good measure of actual estrogenic load.

 

[5a-DHP]

Try popping an AI and tell me you don't feel like death

Because popping an ai does nothing to fix the actual problem -- of course it'll make you feel worse.

 

[mrchibbs]

That's because testosterone is an endocrine hormone, meaning it is produced by a gland and enters the blood stream to travel to it's target tissue. Estradiol, on the other hand, is a paracrine hormone in men, meaning it is produced and used in it's tissue of origin -- i.e, it does not need to travel in the blood stream to reach it's target tissue, as it is directly produced in the tissue itself via aromatization.

This is why serum testosterone is a good measure of testosterone status, whilst serum estradiol is not a good measure of actual estrogenic load.

Very well put!

 

[Jing]

I took Anastrozole (astra zeneca brand) at 1/4mg EOD for approximately a year. It didn't really do anything negative or positive. The only reason I took it so long was because they sent me two packs by mistake so I had extra and I thought I might as well use it up. Anyway, from what I've read, 1/4mg EOD is a pretty high dose for someone who is not taking TRT or some anabolic steroid.

You sure it was legit it would be very unlikely to feel nothing from that dose.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

That Facebook group is the definition of dogma and is not somewhere you should be taking medical advice from. Danny Bossa has zero formal education, severe gyno, is incredibly quick to anger and just repeats the words of better men without adding anything to the discussion himself. Steven Devos is a dermatologist who looks to be suffering from alopeica universalis, which tells you all you need to know imo. Jordan Grant seems like an intelligent and reasonable man who I have a lot of time for.

Should aromatase inhibitors be used? In my opinion, no -- not because estradiol is a beneficial hormone that you want as high as possible, but because they do absolutely nothing to address the underlying pathology which led to excessive aromatization to take hold. Taking an ai to reduce estrogen is akin to taking thyroid whilst still eating 1500 calories a day and running marathons: of course it isn't going to make you feel good. A poor response to an aromatase inhibitor cannot be used as evidence that estrogen excess is desirable.

Back when I used to post in that group, I had multiple debates with Danny, the doctors and Gil. Their entire approach is based upon the premise that the rate of aromatization is genetically determined, so by definition, nobody is an over-aromatizer, and estrogen, specifically estradiol, should therefore be left to "fall where it falls" when using exogenous testosterone. This idea is fundamentally wrong. Aromatase inhibitors are not the answer to this issue, but likewise, estrogen excess should not be swept under the carpet.

Every time I would dispute these claims whilst offering an alternative view, I'd be inundated with personal messages from men who'd been following their advice for a year + and saw zero benefit, or had actively regressed. Most men in that group, including many of the doctors / admins, still rely on daily low dose ciallis to get their **** hard -- does that sound like a healthy person to you?

The whole testosterone optimization field is such a farce. Those guys who claim they know what they’re talking about when all they do is repeat some decade old nonsense.

I’ve been offered a position in one of those anti aging clinics as a patient care coordinator and even though the money is good, the whole dogma surrounding “HRT” is a god damn joke... it is beyond me how we can solemnly tell someone they’re “secondary hypogonadal” and not even bother searching secondary for what? What’s primarily causing trashed hormones? Nah, just inject T and pop more pills when adverse events happen. I would never want anyone to have suppressed HPTA unless they’re into legit bodybuilding. And even then they wouldn’t be injecting more than TRT + other (better) anabolics

 

[5a-DHP]

The whole testosterone optimization field is such a farce. Those guys who claim they know what they’re talking about when all they do is repeat some decade old nonsense.

I’ve been offered a position in one of those anti aging clinics as a patient care coordinator and even though the money is good, the whole dogma surrounding “HRT” is a god damn joke... it is beyond me how we can solemnly tell someone they’re “secondary hypogonadal” and not even bother searching secondary for what? What’s primarily causing trashed hormones? Nah, just inject T and pop more pills when adverse events happen. I would never want anyone to have suppressed HPTA unless they’re into legit bodybuilding. And even then they wouldn’t be injecting more than TRT + other (better) anabolics

Nahhhhhh bro, you just wouldn't understand because you're a low t beta b**** who doesn't have the alpha mindset of dudes who inject 250mg per week for their testosterone 'replacement'.

Jokes aside, I completely agree. Entire field is a farce and most men I see are extremely underwhelmed with the results -- some do fine, most don't. Dudes on trt are just spinning their wheels thinking that fatigue, poor sleep, low confidence, brain fog, etc, are all going to go once they get their free T > 1, but biology doesn't work like that.

Completely replacing testosterone for 'idiopathic' secondary hypogonadism is a joke. The only time testosterone should be used medically is for primary testicular failure, HPTA failure due to brain abnormalities or to mitigate the effects of certain diseases. If you want to use testosterone for athletic performance or hypermasculinization that's fine too - your body, your choice - but don't try and dress it up as medical necessity.

FWIW, I have used cycle-level doses of testosterone in the past for athletic performance and still use it occasionally now (1-2mg, non-hpta suppressive doses) so I understand it's benefits and why one would want to take it, but full replacement doses under the guise of medical necessity is ludicrous.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Completely replacing testosterone for 'idiopathic' secondary hypogonadism is a joke. The only time testosterone should be used medically is for primary testicular failure, HPTA failure due to brain abnormalities or to mitigate the effects of certain diseases. If you want to use testosterone for athletic performance or hypermasculinization that's fine too - your body, your choice - but don't try and dress it up as medical necessity.

absolutely, this times infinity. But don’t nobody wanna admit that their solid routine of overtraining + being overworked + eating chicken and rice and PUFA oils/butters is the big elephant in the room.

250 mg/wk of Test please. Yes that’s testosterone replacement, total T is 1299 ng/dL and 24/7 but that’s within normal range!!

those guys are cash cows to “anti aging clinics” tho. Get them on HGH, Cialis, topical stuff, CPAPs, everything, anything that makes them believe they’re “optimized”. I wish I had no internal morals and accepted the job offer tbh.

 

[schultz]

You sure it was legit it would be very unlikely to feel nothing from that dose.

I suppose it could have been. Although it was from a Mexican pharmacy and was in the Astra Zeneca box in blister packs and the pills had little markings on them. The package was identical to the Astra Zeneca Arimidex packaging. I feel like that would be difficult to fake. It's not like it was some liquid bluesky peptides shady brand.