E2 Is Not The Problem

[b555]

Jay Campbell is such an airhead lmao

Agreed I was using that video to talk about how more testosterone is now needed due to EDCs

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Agreed I was using that video to talk about how more testosterone is now needed due to EDCs

Yeah, I just wanted to add that quick diss.

Barring EDCs which I consider as a minor detail compared to low carb, overtraining, HRT OCDing and whatnot - I wonder if we have data on 5G and aromatase or 5a reductase or hydroxylases or any enzymes in the steroidogenesis chain.

 

[Andman]

@5a-DHP thanks for your detailed posts
you mentioned sometimes using 1-2mg test, have you noticed effects from such „top up“ doses? peat does or used to do the same if i remember correctly

 

[Broken man]

I wonder if it actually has to do with the fact that I wasn't taking some kind of external hormone like T? If you think about it, most guys are taking an AI while also taking a hormone or two. So when they say they are getting sore joints or something maybe it is some kind of combination effect. And most women are taking like 1mg a day. I'm not sure how that would work, but if the AI was affecting synthesis of upstream or downstream hormones at the same time as an external hormone was also affecting hormones by reducing endogenous production, it could be reducing certain protective hormone metabolites excessively. We don't even know that much about some of these downstream hormones and there are dozens of them.

Just theorizing.

Edit: or maybe I have a super liver? I do drink a ton of coffee lol

IT could be also from low T or synthetic derivates that are toxic. I was recently put on Letrozole, the tablet is full of sh*t additives that are harming my gut and also few shots of HCG, will write my experience.

 

[Broken man]

Also I am a member of testosterone taking fb group and must say that only few od them are looking and doing good while on T.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Also I am a member of testosterone taking fb group and must say that only few od them are looking and doing good while on T.

that is true for a vast majority of the enhanced population. If they don’t have the genetics to look good on physiological levels of testosterone, whether naturally or on HRT, they should forget about looking good altogether and that’s probably going to be better mentally speaking. Better luck next life. The enhanced/optimized world is selling a bunch of lies.

 

[Andman]

that is true for a vast majority of the enhanced population. If they don’t have the genetics to look good on physiological levels of testosterone, whether naturally or on HRT, they should forget about looking good altogether and that’s probably going to be better mentally speaking. Better luck next life. The enhanced/optimized world is selling a bunch of lies.

rather if they dont put in the effort. anything bodybuilding/athletic related is that much easier on gear

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I’m positive that the amount of “non responders” isn’t because of their lack of effort or their bad dieting but simply because they don’t have the androgen receptors for it. Blame childhood-teenagehood. Epigenetics and working hard can only do so much. Those are the guys who will “blast” 2 grams of whatever and look (at best!) like an ifbb pro when they share old pictures at 16yo on dbol only

 

[Broken man]

I’m positive that the amount of “non responders” isn’t because of their lack of effort or their bad dieting but simply because they don’t have the androgen receptors for it. Blame childhood-teenagehood. Epigenetics and working hard can only do so much. Those are the guys who will “blast” 2 grams of whatever and look (at best!) like an ifbb pro when they share old pictures at 16yo on dbol only

Ye, caprylic acid could help with Androgen receptors I think. Do you think that amount of androgen receptors could correlate eith mitochondria or metabolism somehow? I know I read article about that todays bodybuilders need more steroids than men before. I also dont like the way men and bodybuilders look today, prefer Arnold Schwarzenegger's era. Also, I dont understand how somebody want look like men on roids today....huge like cows and bald.

 

[5a-DHP]

@5a-DHP thanks for your detailed posts
you mentioned sometimes using 1-2mg test, have you noticed effects from such „top up“ doses? peat does or used to do the same if i remember correctly

I notice more from 5mg of oral DHEA than 1-2mg of testosterone. To get a significant effect I have to use 5mg+, but unfortunately a single dose that high consistently drops my LH from 4/5 down to ~0.5 which is counterproductive in the long run.

 

[5a-DHP]

You’re certainly knowledgeable on this. Whats your current diet and protocol

i agree with you. So you think progesterone should be used with trt?

I don't think I could make a blanket statement recommending progesterone to everyone on testosterone, but the majority would probably benefit somewhat - especially if serum prog drops below 0.20 ng/ml, as is the case for most men who have been on trt long term.

Even when raising serum prog to optimal with exogenous use to correct trt-induced deficiency, there are still various issues that cannot be countered. The absence of releasing hormones causes downregulation of 17a-hydroxylase and 17,20-lyase activity, which means progesterone's metabolism is still vastly different to that observed in a functioning hpta. Prolongued use of strong androgens will also downregualte 3BHSD, often causing secondary adrenal insufficiency despite the adrenals themselves being fine.

 

[b555]

You would basically need prog,preg,dhea,cortisol then with trt

 

[5a-DHP]

You would basically need prog,preg,dhea,cortisol then with trt

All depends on the person. Some people have been on trt for 5-10 years and still have great preg, prog, dhea, cortisol, etc. Conversely, I've seen an untold number of labs from men who are severely deficient in all upstream hormones, with androgen-induced cortisol deficiency causing significantly more problems than low testosterone ever did.

Dr John Crisler was revered as the 'pioneer' of male hrt before his untimely death, and he had most of his patients on a combination of testosterone, thyroid, hydrocortisone, hcg, pregnenolone, dhea, t3, hgh, etc, back when this was all unexplored territory. I'm still yet to hear from a man who felt good under his care.

You can't approach the endocrine system like that. Years of extensive exogenous hormone use has time and time again led me back to the same mentality: if health is the goal, you need to restore the bodies ability to self-regulate - not micromanage everything yourself. There are over a thousand bioactive steroids that cascade down from pregnenolone, all of whom's production, action and excretion are tightly controlled within a system that, even now, we still know next to nothing about. Think about that for a moment: we're shutting down an entire system that we do not understand to replace a single downstream sex steroid, and then we're shocked that it doesn't actually make us feel all that better (by we, I don't mean anyone in this thread specifically, but more so the testosterone replacement community as a whole.).

It just doesn't work. Too many metabolites, too many enzymes and too many pathways to manipulate in isolation.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I don’t wanna speculate too much on the death of another man. All I know is that when I realized the foolishness of Hormone micromanagement (“anti aging”) it made me feel like ***t. Such a waste of time. Imagine devoting your whole life to this stuff, being regarded as a cutting edge tip of the spear practitioner, and all you do over time is hand out more and more drugs for little results.

I’m positive HCG is as close as it gets to physiological functioning. Although it’s typically overdosed. Mimicking LH is as close as it gets to stimulating all enzymes in the whole steroidogenesis. It’s no surprise HCG reverses “PFS”.
Plus, you shoot nice shots.

so for me personally either you juice up to get big (short-medium term, whatever... YOLO I guess). Or you drop off everything - maybe give HCG a run anywhere between 500-1000 iu per week

 

[b555]

All depends on the person. Some people have been on trt for 5-10 years and still have great preg, prog, dhea, cortisol, etc. Conversely, I've seen an untold number of labs from men who are severely deficient in all upstream hormones, with androgen-induced cortisol deficiency causing significantly more problems than low testosterone ever did.

Dr John Crisler was revered as the 'pioneer' of male hrt before his untimely death, and he had most of his patients on a combination of testosterone, thyroid, hydrocortisone, hcg, pregnenolone, dhea, t3, hgh, etc, back when this was all unexplored territory. I'm still yet to hear from a man who felt good under his care.

You can't approach the endocrine system like that. Years of extensive exogenous hormone use has time and time again led me back to the same mentality: if health is the goal, you need to restore the bodies ability to self-regulate - not micromanage everything yourself. There are over a thousand bioactive steroids that cascade down from pregnenolone, all of whom's production, action and excretion are tightly controlled within a system that, even now, we still know next to nothing about. Think about that for a moment: we're shutting down an entire system that we do not understand to replace a single downstream sex steroid, and then we're shocked that it doesn't actually make us feel all that better (by we, I don't mean anyone in this thread specifically, but more so the testosterone replacement community as a whole.).

It just doesn't work. Too many metabolites, too many enzymes and too many pathways to manipulate in isolation.

whats the alternatives to taking test?
I know so many men that feel awesome on testosterone and yes some feel worse, but thats everything, many people feel great on thyorid, some nevee right. I talk to many people that are way better off leaving peat stuff and feel better low carb, it goes on

yes the trt community has its issues for sure, but that’s understandable, men that go on trt that feel great are not going to waste the time to research forums for how to feel better. This is why i said, healthy people spend little time on Facebook, forums, youtube, etc.
I personally spends a lot of time online when im not well and have low energy
i talk to an 80 year old whos been on trt for 25 years and looks and feels great, yes he takes dhea.preg, thyorid

i think you would be surprised at how many men feel better on trt... its a lot.

 

[milkboi]

You would basically need prog,preg,dhea,cortisol then with trt

What about high dose Preg to get all of those in in one pill? Obviously it wouldn‘t work perfectly, but I think I‘m going to give it a shot (no, actually I‘m gonna take it orally). 200-400mg daily is the plan.

 

[b555]

What about high dose Preg to get all of those in in one pill?

i think so, but not for me at all. Preg for me seems to increase prog and cortisol but not dhea

 

[milkboi]

i think so, but not for me at all. Preg for me seems to increase prog and cortisol but not dhea

Oh ok, interesting.

 

[b555]

I want to run the dutch test to find out more info..

I am far from optimal and often think of getting off trt

 

[Andman]

I notice more from 5mg of oral DHEA than 1-2mg of testosterone. To get a significant effect I have to use 5mg+, but unfortunately a single dose that high consistently drops my LH from 4/5 down to ~0.5 which is counterproductive in the long run.

great, thats some really useful data, thanks a lot!