Male Sexual Function Does NOT Require Estrogen

haidut

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It is a "sacred" mantra in the medical and sports worlds - i.e. "estrogen is crucial for males, without it they won't have any sex life". This mantra is also part of the justification given for the currently ongoing COVID-19 clinical trials with males receiving estrogen in the hope it will reduce the lethality of the disease. You know, if estrogen is crucial for male sexual function, then how bad can it be to give a little extra when the male has a viral disease?? Aside from the potent immunosuppressive effects of estrogen (which testosterone gets blamed for unfairly), the studies below pour cold water even on the sex health claim. They conclusively demonstrate that males have perfectly good sexual function when either the effects of estrogen are blocked at the receptor level or its synthesis is decreased dramatically. In fact, there was even a temporary increase in sexual desire of eugonadal men while undergoing treatments with DHT. Treatments with a SERM (tamoxifen) or an aromatase inhibitor (testolactone) did not induce ANY change (positive or negative) in sexual function. Btw, treatment with DHT suppressed BOTH testosterone and estrogen to castration levels, which demonstrates that testosterone (which is an aromatizable steroid) is also not that crucial for male sexual health. Adding to all that evidence the study demonstrating that estrogen is NOT needed for muscle growth either reduces the justification of estrogen use in males to nil.

Male sexual function can be maintained without aromatization: randomized placebo-controlled trial of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in healthy, older men for 24 months - PubMed
"...Results: DHT treatment increased serum DHT with complete suppression of serum T, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, and estradiol throughout the 24-month study resulting in reduced spinal bone density. There were no spontaneous complaints, or discontinuations for, adverse effects on sexual function during the study. DHT administration had no effects on any of 33 measures of sexual function and mood, apart from a mild, but significant decrease in overall sexual desire, which was reversible after cessation of treatment. Increasing age and less often increasing BMI were associated with significant decreases in most aspects of sexual function.Conclusions: We conclude that aromatization plays only a minimal role in maintenance of sexual function in healthy eugonadal middle-aged or older men, but age and obesity are significantly associated with decreases in most aspects of self-reported sexual function and satisfaction. The dependence of male sexual function on aromatization may be conditional on age and obesity and can be overcome by a nonaromatizable androgen."

Human male sexual functions do not require aromatization of testosterone: a study using tamoxifen, testolactone, and dihydrotestosterone - PubMed
"...The agonadal men did not notice any significant difference, whether treated with the aromatizable TU or the nonaromatizable DHTU. Only in the eugonadal students did the administration of DHTU, which increased the levels of DHT, give rise to a transient change in the parameters assessed. They noted a significant increase in nocturnal sexual dreams and nocturnal (sometimes painful) erections...These effects waned after 3-4 weeks of administration. The overall appreciation of the participation in the experiment was negative: four of the six stated that they would not be prepared to repeat the experiment. This contrasts with the participants of the testolactone experiment. Sexual acts were not influenced, nor was the occurrence of daytime sexual thoughts. "

"...This study tested whether, as in the rat and other species, T needs to be converted to estrogens in order to exert fully its effects on sexual behavior. The results could not establish an effect of administration of an antiestrogen, known to interact with cerebral estrogen receptors. The rise of LH, FSH, and testosterone following the administration of tamoxifen demonstrates that this agent acts as an antiestrogen when administered to adult men. Apparently, the rise of endogenous T also did not affect sexual functions in these men. Further, an approximately 50% fall in circulating E2 levels, induced by testolactone, did not influence any of the parameters assessed in these young men. It is presently not known whether testolactone crosses the blood-brain barrier and reduces brain estradiol levels. Thus, some caution is warranted. These results do not support the conclusion of Luisi and Franchi (1980). Another approch to the problem was replacement of testosterone in hypogonadal men by dihydrotestosterone. This led to a further increase of already supraphysiological levels of DHT and the disappearance of measurable levels of T and E» No side-effects were noted by these men. The latter data would have gained strength if our study had included a placebo comparison group, but this was not acceptable to the subjects tested. On the other hand, it is unlikely that the testosterone effects would carry over for the full 9 weeks of DHTU administration. Skakkebaek et al. (1981) found that such an effect is mainly noticeable in the first 2 weeks after transferring patients from testosterone to placebo. Surprisingly, the increase of DHT levels had noticeable effects in eugonadal men, namely, an increase of nocturnal sexual dreams and nocturnal erections and a feeling of congestion and irritability that waned after 3-4 weeks. This disappearance was not due to increased metabolism of DHT, since levels of DHT were not lower after 6 weeks of treatment than after 3 weeks. Why these effects occurred in the eugonadal but not in the agonadal men is not obvious. However, a few possibilities can be considered. In the agonadal men, DHT levels were, as a result of TU treatment, already supraphysiological, whereas in the eugonadal men these were in the physiological range. Since the effects in the eugonadal men were of a transient nature it may be that the agonadal men had adapted or were desensitized to supraphysiological levels of DHT. Further, in the eugonadal men, DHT, T, and E2 were simultaneously present, whereas in the agonadal men only DHT was circulating. It is not clear whether this played a role. In conclusion, due to the small size of the samples and the limited power of statistical tests, and also the absence of placebo-treated control groups, each of the four experiments may not be fully convincing that conversion of T to E2 is not required to maintain sexual functions in adult men with an established sex life. Collectively, however, the data do support this conclusion."
 
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This is reassuring to hear. I guess it’s just a difficult thing to slam estrogen right down without (doing so) causing bad side effects (achy joints, mood problems, etc). I got that from one drop of your androsterone product. Very very potent. I found 5-adhp a bit more user friendly (perhaps it didn’t crush estrogen as much). And I could take a few drops of that.

I think your estroban and energin products are excellent at slam dunking estrogen without going too crazy (as they are also providing the raw materials for the detox of estrogen). And go very nice with a little topical DHEA.
 

Aries

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The temporary increase in sex drive and night time erections was only present in the eugonadal group at the beginning when estrogen wasn't yet tanked. After the 3-4 weeks when T and E dropped to undetectable levels the sex drive calmed down. Estrogen is not needed for erections but apparently increasing DHT to estradiol (and testosterone) is better for sexual function than DHT alone.

They noted a significant increase in nocturnal sexual dreams and nocturnal (sometimes painful) erections. On the mood scale they noted an increase of irritability. Some had minor complaints of prostatism. All felt congested. These effects waned after 3-4 weeks of administration.

Is it high DHT driving tissue estrogen out causing prostate problems, irritability and elevated libido? Or is DHT itself causing high libido, irritability and prostate issues?

@haidut
Also, here you said Tamoxifens detrimental effects on erections are probably mediated by its estrogen agonist properties but in this thread it is presented only as a potent estrogen blocker.
Why Does Tamoxifen Seem To Cause Low Libido And E.D
 

Vegancrossfit

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In conclusion, due to the small size of the samples and the limited power of statistical tests, and also the absence of placebo-treated control groups, each of the four experiments may not be fully convincing that conversion of T to E2 is not required to maintain sexual functions in adult men with an established sex life. Collectively, however, the data do support this conclusion."

funny how it goes when selectively bolding certains parts and not others. Whatever suits the narrative!

.... now that being said it is amusing to watch this “expert” ‘s face when the patients reports feeling great on single digits E2. Consistent with reports of great quality of life in nandrolone only patients with E2 typically hovering around 10 pg/ml


I don’t pay attention to serum levels anymore. But jumping to conclusions is dangerous.
 

Aries

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Consistent with reports of great quality of life in nandrolone only patients with E2 typically hovering around 10 pg/ml
10 pg/ml might be enough on nandrolone because nandrolone itself is an agonist of ERa. It doesn't mean naturals or TRT users would report same quality of life with estrogen in single digits. Not that you suggested that, just saying.
 
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I’m not convinced. It is an interesting study but it doesn’t agree with other studies including some older rat studies that are reliable and not politically done.
 

TheBeard

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I remember the days when I used to make the mistake of taking aromasin to boost my T.
I would always get painful boners and insane libido the first two days.
Then it would vanish, I would be left with no feelings, no sex life, no joints, no muscles.

The fact is exemestane is quite androgenic. It was working well while there was still estrogens present in my blood or at the receptor. But after the job of killing that estrogen was started, the androgenicity of exemestane alone couldn't make me feel normal again, far from it.

I'm not the only one reporting this.
So I'm grateful for studies, but real life anecdotes trump this as far as I see it.
 

Vegancrossfit

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10 pg/ml might be enough on nandrolone because nandrolone itself is an agonist of ERa. It doesn't mean naturals or TRT users would report same quality of life with estrogen in single digits. Not that you suggested that, just saying.

absolutely, thanks for pointing that out. Although nandrolone is a very weak agonist of ERa, but most likely sufficient.
 

MatheusPN

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I remember the days when I used to make the mistake of taking aromasin to boost my T.
I would always get painful boners and insane libido the first two days.
Then it would vanish, I would be left with no feelings, no sex life, no joints, no muscles.

The fact is exemestane is quite androgenic. It was working well while there was still estrogens present in my blood or at the receptor. But after the job of killing that estrogen was started, the androgenicity of exemestane alone couldn't make me feel normal again, far from it.

I'm not the only one reporting this.
So I'm grateful for studies, but real life anecdotes trump this as far as I see it.
Interesting. Any experience with bioidentical anti-estrogenic hormones only/ mostly?
Here is mine:
Androsterone a more potent AI than even DHT, with Gonadin, aspirin, MB, Cypro and camphor, all with AI qualities used without any side effect, only good effects; in a 6 pack body, some/ most for more than 3 months.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
8,232
I remember the days when I used to make the mistake of taking aromasin to boost my T.
I would always get painful boners and insane libido the first two days.
Then it would vanish, I would be left with no feelings, no sex life, no joints, no muscles.

The fact is exemestane is quite androgenic. It was working well while there was still estrogens present in my blood or at the receptor. But after the job of killing that estrogen was started, the androgenicity of exemestane alone couldn't make me feel normal again, far from it.

I'm not the only one reporting this.
So I'm grateful for studies, but real life anecdotes trump this as far as I see it.

My experience as well, precisely this. Even too many mushrooms will do this to me after a bit.
 

GorillaHead

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Aromatase deficient men often have reduced sex drive libido And low sperm quality. We cant keep knocking estrogen. Thats not how the body works. Its all about balance. In certain cases the balance is slightly or moderately shifted in one direction depending on the sex.
 

TheBeard

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Interesting. Any experience with bioidentical anti-estrogenic hormones only/ mostly?
Here is mine:
Androsterone a more potent AI than even DHT, with Gonadin, aspirin, MB, Cypro and camphor, all with AI qualities used without any side effect, only good effects; in a 6 pack body, some/ most for more than 3 months.

Androsterone
Androstenedione
Stanolone (pure DHT)
Proviron

All gave me anxiety, anhedonia, flat muscles, low libido, bad temper
 

MatheusPN

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Androsterone
Androstenedione
Stanolone (pure DHT)
Proviron

All gave me anxiety, anhedonia, flat muscles, low libido, bad temper
Thanks, Its very interesting those differences in ppl reactions.
It seems most people can only do well with an aromatizable steroid/ preg, prog, cholesterol, D or thyroid together with an 5-ar/ anti-estrogenic chemical.
Accordingly, aspects like age, health, the body balance of hormones matter etc.
 
Last edited:

JDreamer

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Jun 4, 2016
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Aromatase deficient men often have reduced sex drive libido And low sperm quality. We cant keep knocking estrogen. Thats not how the body works. Its all about balance. In certain cases the balance is slightly or moderately shifted in one direction depending on the sex.

It's all about balance ........... until you get past the age of 40 and your body teams up with father time to shift wildly to the estro-side. Estrogen is a real son of a b**** hormone later in life.
 

ilhanxx

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Feb 26, 2019
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I used aromasin, letrozole, proviron all types of AI. They gave me uncolored zombie like effect. I tried oral saw palmetto as well in the past for hair regimen. After a meanwhile it tanked my e2. It gave me depressive unconfident insatiable libido. Two sides of power are bad, balance is good
 

jtoro

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Feb 4, 2018
Messages
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yes it was very temporary.
Did you do anything to speed up the recovery other than stopping the androsterone?

Did you try to increase estrogen by using boron or something else?

Did you go back to using androsterone at lower dose?

Thanks
 
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