Dr. Ray Peat - Liver Health, Milk, Alcohol, and More Listener Q&A

[Elderflower j58]

@Pina Preaching to the choir!

Thanks for your concern, as a 6 year forum member I'm well
aware of Ray Peat's knowledge around nutrition for optimum metabolic, hormonal health....
Including milk be it raw organic, goat A1,A2.
He also promotes critical thinking....

I suggest you view the video.

 

[Peatness]

@Pina Preaching to the choir!

Thanks for your concern, as a 6 year forum member I'm well
aware of Ray Peat's knowledge around nutrition for optimum metabolic, hormonal health....
Including milk be it raw organic, goat A1,A2.
He also promotes critical thinking....

I suggest you view the video.

I joined in 2020 but I have followed this forum for many years before signing up. I made that comment in support of your statement. If you found it preachy ignore it

 

[Elderflower j58]

@Pina
At the 6.18 minute point in the video that is the title of this thread jodelle speaks to the milk cleanse which is the video I posted.
Jodelle didn't mention the supplements that come along with this 8 day cleansing protocol.... A lot of them Peat friendly.. Slippery elm, cascara Sagrada, kelp and other seaweeds etc.
Also this is a 2 to 4 times yearly health reset... not a diet.
This protocol has excellent reviews and jodelle herself said it's cleared up a mould residual problem that she had for the last 4 years... In 8 days ?

 

[valdz]

I found this video from Jodelle super interesting.
Jody Levy obviously has something to sell, nothing wrong with that in my opinion.... but anyone a bit savi could put this protocol together themselves at a much cheaper price.
Having said that I might consider buying this for my very badly affected gut.



View: https://youtu.be/5Mx_3vLmrto

Thanks for posting! Just listened to most of it on my way home from work but haven’t check the site. Raw goats milk would be expensive for me. Lol. However I do well with it and use a gal/1.5 wks but it be something I might try in the future. Maybe do this cleanse first before coffee enemas. Lol

 

[Elderflower j58]

I think she is only recommending goats milk if you can't tolerate cow's milk.
Ray seems pretty easy going around milk as in Get What You Can Afford obviously organic is better.
@valdz

 

[yerrag]

In a world where you can't trust labels where you can easily be paying top dollar for the organic label and the contents are anything but by the grace of z corrupt or z compromised integrity of regulatory agencies, the only true organic is one you grow and raise or hunt or see with your own eyes.

Paying higher for organic only changes your supplier into a lying scumbag selling bootleg that makes you blind.

 

[Elderflower j58]

I completely agree you're right, but for some reason when I look at my organic milk and regular milk side-by-side I'm properly convinced the Organic one is more yellow.... Very very likely more fool me.

 

[5a-DHP]

It's disappointing that Ray never addresses reports of exogenous progesterone use promoting estrogenic symptoms (breast tenderness, vascular issues, irregular bleeding, water retention, etc.) per the question in the video.
This has been reported on this forum and elsewhere at length, but he never proposes an explanatory mechanism when asked; he either dismisses the quality of the supplement (most people who report said sides are using progest-e) and/or the anecdote itself outright, neither of which being particularly helpful.

 

[Elderflower j58]

IIRC DR PEAT used to suggest larger amounts of progesterone if the oestrogen dominance was more severe and slowly lower dose over a period of time.

@5a-DHP

Estrogen dominance

The term 'estrogen dominance' was coined to describe the 'adverse' symptoms often encountered by men and women if they have a naturally high level of estrogen

www.progesteronetherapy.com

This is from an old very reputable progesterone therapy website.

 

[yerrag]

It's disappointing that Ray never addresses reports of exogenous progesterone use promoting estrogenic symptoms (breast tenderness, vascular issues, irregular bleeding, water retention, etc.) per the question in the video.
This has been reported on this forum and elsewhere at length, but he never proposes an explanatory mechanism when asked; he either dismisses the quality of the supplement (most people who report said sides are using progest-e) and/or the anecdote itself outright, neither of which being particularly helpful.

Ray won't say it's complicated and tell you to find out for yourself. Yes, he would just not answer the question directly.

Since Ray has talked about progesterone intake causing estrogen from tissues to be secreted into the bloodstream, I was hoping he would mention this effect as causing these symptoms. If that were the case, then those symptoms can be considered temporary and be taken as part of a healing crisis- where it would feel worse before it gets better.

But healing crises are hard to detect for most people. I've been fooled into thinking I'm in healing crisis only to realize it was a deterioration of my condition. That's why it's probably better for Peat to not say anything rather than make neophytes the option to misread their condition and in so doing worsen their condition. I know. I have a sister who tend to follow what "experts" say and don't observe well enough to reassess her situation. I now roll my eyes when she says she's trying psylocibin, after trying cannabinoids, and grounding mats, and many, many detox regimens. She never gets well. She just goes round and round in a merry go round. And then she finds sanctuary in thinking she is a victim soul, and offers her suffering for the pope and what not. It's just not a healthy attitude imho. If I were Ray and I know she is listening, I would just deflect the question because it's for the better.

 

[5a-DHP]

Since Ray has talked about progesterone intake causing estrogen from tissues to be secreted into the bloodstream, I was hoping he would mention this effect as causing these symptoms. If that were the case, then those symptoms can be considered temporary and be taken as part of a healing crisis- where it would feel worse before it gets better.

Appreciate the input, but there are two problems with the "estrogen flush" theory of progesterone sides:

1.) progesterone promotes the removal of estrogen from the cell through upregulation of sulfotransferase and glucuronyltransferase, the enzymes that attach sulfuric acid and glucuronic acid to estrogen, respectively. This renders the now estrogen conjugate water soluble, which by-proxy favors the water-based serum over the lipid-based cell where the receptor lies. So, it doesn't make sense that this would lead to a net increase in estrogenic symptoms given the estrogen conjugates that are removed from the cell are excreted into the plasma and away from the receptor, followed shortly by excretion via the kidney — if they're not in the cell, how are they exerting their effect as a hormone?

2.) androgens, particularly non-aromatizable DHT-derivatives, promote the exact same pathway of estrogen excretion, yet none of them are associated with the estrogenic symptoms that progesterone is — mast, primo, aromasin, etc., are all used for their anti-estrogenic effects in both bodybuilding and medicine.

 

[5a-DHP]

IIRC DR PEAT used to suggest larger amounts of progesterone if the oestrogen dominance was more severe and slowly lower dose over a period of time.

@5a-DHP

Estrogen dominance

The term 'estrogen dominance' was coined to describe the 'adverse' symptoms often encountered by men and women if they have a naturally high level of estrogen

www.progesteronetherapy.com

This is from an old very reputable progesterone therapy website.

Appreciate the input.
However, I've known women who've used 300mg micronized per day plus, and the symptoms continue to worsen irrespective of how long they persist.
I'm not claiming it's the progesterone itself that causes the issue, but there's certainly more nuance at play than Ray will often suggest — he regularly makes out that progesterone use can do not harm, which isn't the case.
Moreover, Ray himself directly disputes the "you have to get worse before you get better" dichotomy.

 

[yerrag]

Appreciate the input, but there are two problems with the "estrogen flush" theory of progesterone sides:

1.) progesterone promotes the removal of estrogen from the cell through upregulation of sulfotransferase and glucuronyltransferase, which attach sulfuric acid and glucuronic acid to estrogen, respectively. This renders the now estrogen conjugate water soluble, which by-proxy favors the water-based serum over the lipid-based cell where the receptor lies. So, it doesn't make sense that this would lead to a net increase in estrogenic symptoms given the estrogen conjugates that are removed from the cell are excreted into the plasma and away from the receptor, followed shortly by excretion via the kidney — if they're not in the cell, how are they exerting their effect as a hormone?

2.) androgens, particularly non-aromatizable DHT-derivatives, promote the exact same pathway of estrogen excretion, yet none of them are associated with the estrogenic symptoms that progesterone is — mast, primo, aromasin, etc., are all used for their anti-estrogenic effects in both bodybuilding and medicine.

Maybe.

But aren't you basing your assumption that the estrogen is being detoxed by the liver? What if the liver isn't doing its job?

The response is contextual.

 

[Stilgar]

I think he confirmed once that a compromised gut, i.e. bacterial overgrowth could theoretically convert supplemental progesterone to estrogen.

 

[Peatness]

@Pina
At the 6.18 minute point in the video that is the title of this thread jodelle speaks to the milk cleanse which is the video I posted.
Jodelle didn't mention the supplements that come along with this 8 day cleansing protocol.... A lot of them Peat friendly.. Slippery elm, cascara Sagrada, kelp and other seaweeds etc.
Also this is a 2 to 4 times yearly health reset... not a diet.
This protocol has excellent reviews and jodelle herself said it's cleared up a mould residual problem that she had for the last 4 years... In 8 days ?

I will watch the video. There is always something new to learn

 

[Sydneygirl]

Dr Peat mentions that laxatives and an anti inflammatory are the first defence of the liver (when there is irritation of the bowel), would anyone know if the regular anti inflammatory tablets on the market would work in this situation?

 

[Blossom]

However, I've known women who've used 300mg micronized per day plus, and the symptoms continue to worsen irrespective of how long they persist.
I'm not claiming it's the progesterone itself that causes the issue, but there's certainly more nuance at play than Ray will often suggest — he regularly makes out that progesterone use can do not harm, which isn't the case.

He suggested in my situation to focus on adequate thyroid and vitamin D when I was having issues tolerating progesterone.

 

[pushkin]

"What you are most likely to notice when you're taking more than enough [thyroid] is that just standing up and walking across the room, for example, you'll feel increased warmth, and you'll be breathing harder, and temporarily get out of breath just for walking thirty feet or so. So your heart beats very powerfully and quickly, usually going 95-100 beats per minute, with a very hard, firm pulse... and you're very easily overheated and get out of breath, but you also recover your breath quickly."

So does this mean that when this happens you are taking too much thyroid and you need to cut down, or is this a desired state to be in most of the time ? thank you.

 

[Vileplume]

So does this mean that when this happens you are taking too much thyroid and you need to cut down, or is this a desired state to be in most of the time ? thank you.

I think the desired state is just before this happens. It’s better to have your heart beat around 85, rather than approaching 95. And it’s good to feel warm, but with too much thyroid you feel like you’re overheating to the point that it distracts you, caused you to sweat an uncomfortable amount, snd you get out of breath just walking outside. Instead, you want to keep your energy production just a step below this level.

 

[pushkin]

I think the desired state is just before this happens. It’s better to have your heart beat around 85, rather than approaching 95. And it’s good to feel warm, but with too much thyroid you feel like you’re overheating to the point that it distracts you, caused you to sweat an uncomfortable amount, snd you get out of breath just walking outside. Instead, you want to keep your energy production just a step below this level.

thank you