Does Cascara Suppress The Immune System?

Giraffe

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Here is the full text of this case report.

They say that drug induced liver injury is asssumed after other possible causes have been excluded. Not sure why Cascara sagrada was blamed. Actually there are a few things they can not exclude: (1) drug interactions with the patients diuretic pills, hepatic injury induced either by (2a) her calcium-channel blocker or by (2b) the statin, and finally (3) cholangiocarcinoma.
 

Birdie

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Wondered about that myself-- seems to belong in a literature review, not a scientific article! Unless, of course, you are against alternative therapies!
Well, somebody explained it to me. Not sure if he's right. Idea is that finding out what was wrong could be an unexpectedly good finding. Something like that.

Anyway, I was about to leave for a very disagreeable doctor appointment, so the thing just hit me wrong. Luckily, serendipitously that is, all went well at my visit!
 

Birdie

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@Giraffe
Am too tired to explore it, but thanks and looks like once again not clear why C.S.was blamed. Like the way you put that.
 

mosaic01

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What if cascara doesn't suppress the immune system, but simply decreases immune markers secondary to fighting pathogens and decreasing inflammation as a necessary and beneficial adoption?
 

haidut

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What if cascara doesn't suppress the immune system, but simply decreases immune markers secondary to fighting pathogens and decreasing inflammation as a necessary and beneficial adoption?

That's what Peat said about the guy who went on a fat-free diet. His WBC and other biomarkers of immune system functionality went down but he did not get sick and Peat thought it was due to his diet simply lowering inflammation.
 

Kray

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Thanks to those who helped sort out the meaning of the word "serendipitous"
Well, somebody explained it to me. Not sure if he's right. Idea is that finding out what was wrong could be an unexpectedly good finding. Something like that.

Anyway, I was about to leave for a very disagreeable doctor appointment, so the thing just hit me wrong. Luckily, serendipitously that is, all went well at my visit!

It makes sense now, thanks for the thesaurical advice o_O, but still not sure what to make of cascara and its implications in 'acute liver injury'. I guess unless you know the full background of the case you can only wonder.
 

thyrulian

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That's what Peat said about the guy who went on a fat-free diet. His WBC and other biomarkers of immune system functionality went down but he did not get sick and Peat thought it was due to his diet simply lowering inflammation.
So, the T-cells were destroyed because they were no longer needed? Enhanced immune efficiency...

The quinones are a type of free radical, right? Someone suggested they work through hormesis, which I'd be inclined to believe were it not for their seemingly fundamental benevolence.
 

thyrulian

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Testosterone may impede immunity

Dr. Kwon frequently cares for patients with prostate cancer. The current experiment grew out of his experience in the clinic. One of the more common forms of treatment for prostate cancer suppresses the patient's testosterone levels to increase the patient's immune attack against cancer. To test the role of testosterone on the immune system in the laboratory, the researchers removed testosterone from male mice.

"They suddenly started growing large numbers of new immune cells," Dr. Kwon says. "We also demonstrated that if you take a male mouse and treat it with chemotherapy you can prompt the mouse to recover its immune system much more quickly simply by removing androgen."

When testosterone is removed, the immune cells come back strong and aggressive, ready to attack. Says Dr. Kwon, "They become twitchy, very reactive, and in this state they can, in fact, mediate a strong immune response -- which, as physicians, is just what we want."

What do we want?

Immunity!!!

When do we want it?

Automatically!!!

Heh, that settles it for me. Sorry I ever doubted you, quinones. :smug:
 

haidut

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Testosterone may impede immunity

Dr. Kwon frequently cares for patients with prostate cancer. The current experiment grew out of his experience in the clinic. One of the more common forms of treatment for prostate cancer suppresses the patient's testosterone levels to increase the patient's immune attack against cancer. To test the role of testosterone on the immune system in the laboratory, the researchers removed testosterone from male mice.

"They suddenly started growing large numbers of new immune cells," Dr. Kwon says. "We also demonstrated that if you take a male mouse and treat it with chemotherapy you can prompt the mouse to recover its immune system much more quickly simply by removing androgen."

When testosterone is removed, the immune cells come back strong and aggressive, ready to attack. Says Dr. Kwon, "They become twitchy, very reactive, and in this state they can, in fact, mediate a strong immune response -- which, as physicians, is just what we want."

What do we want?

Immunity!!!

When do we want it?

Automatically!!!

Heh, that settles it for me. Sorry I ever doubted you, quinones. :smug:

It also confirms the recent studies showing that most "autoimmune" conditions are characterized by dramatic drop in androgens and many of them benefit greatly from androgen therapy. One of the great ways to lower androgens is by boosting estrogen, with pills, diet, exercise, etc. I wonder how many women got iatrogenic "autoimmune" conditions by simply being on the pill.
 

Ania

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I believe I may be one of them. My health problems started soon after I was prescribed a pill to regulate my period at the age of 17. It started with severe joint inflamation, chronic utricaria, tachycardia and angioedema. Now I am 44 and still suffer from the conditions, especially joint pains. It is food intolerance, which I am sure involve immunocompexes.
 

thyrulian

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It also confirms the recent studies showing that most "autoimmune" conditions are characterized by dramatic drop in androgens and many of them benefit greatly from androgen therapy. One of the great ways to lower androgens is by boosting estrogen, with pills, diet, exercise, etc. I wonder how many women got iatrogenic "autoimmune" conditions by simply being on the pill.
And that ties in explicably to this concept you presented: Depression May Be Caused By Estrogen In Females And Cortisol In Males

I know I rarely "feel" outright "sick" nowadays, but I remember when I actually did come down with something, I would revel in the opportunity to have an excuse to withdraw - as if the relentless underlying unease & fatigue weren't enough on their own.

I think estrogen's inhibition of monoamine oxidase, being short-lived for dopamine (at least receptor-wise & especially since chronic stress increases MAO-B), while serotonin creepingly takes over, is another pertinent factor, considering the enlivening/numbing dichotomy they regulate on the senses.
 

Regina

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My thoughts exactly:)
I totally believe that you and such_saturation understand these symptoms as serotonin, but there are enough people here still questioning.
IF these serotonin symptoms result from taking cascara, should it be considered a good thing? a die-off or dis-lodging of infection??
IF rats experience high serotonin whilst taking cascara, might they also take metergoline (or other serotonin antagonist) to manage the serotonin but get the benefit of whatever cascara is reducing?
 

haidut

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I believe I may be one of them. My health problems started soon after I was prescribed a pill to regulate my period at the age of 17. It started with severe joint inflamation, chronic utricaria, tachycardia and angioedema. Now I am 44 and still suffer from the conditions, especially joint pains. It is food intolerance, which I am sure involve immunocompexes.

Have you tried pregnenolone/progesterone? I have seen people in similar situation (long term pill users) respond dramatically to pregnenolone and somewhat less so to progesterone. Pregnenolone has successfully been used for joint issues and angioedema, so if you do respond it will be quite dramatic and swift - i.e. within minutes.
 

haidut

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I totally believe that you and such_saturation understand these symptoms as serotonin, but there are enough people here still questioning.
IF these serotonin symptoms result from taking cascara, should it be considered a good thing? a die-off or dis-lodging of infection??
IF rats experience high serotonin whilst taking cascara, might they also take metergoline (or other serotonin antagonist) to manage the serotonin but get the benefit of whatever cascara is reducing?

I don't know for sure that emodin causes these symptoms. It was just a conjecture. The rats that were give emodin had lower estrogen, and higher progesterone, lower herpes viral counts, etc. So, it seems like emodin is doing them quite some benefit. I have pure emodin on hand and it has such powerful calming effects that it is hard for me to believe it raises serotonin. It lower cortisol pretty potently, so that could have some visible symptoms in a hypothyroid person like shaking since adrenaline may rise in such a person to compensate for the lower cortisol.
 

Regina

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I don't know for sure that emodin causes these symptoms. It was just a conjecture. The rats that were give emodin had lower estrogen, and higher progesterone, lower herpes viral counts, etc. So, it seems like emodin is doing them quite some benefit. I have pure emodin on hand and it has such powerful calming effects that it is hard for me to believe it raises serotonin. It lower cortisol pretty potently, so that could have some visible symptoms in a hypothyroid person like shaking since adrenaline may rise in such a person to compensate for the lower cortisol.
Thank you for your reply, Haidut.
One reason I press is that I do want to use my Lapodin on my rat. I backed off and gave her cascara sagrada capsules. She's developed some light cold-like symptoms but this is entirely concurrent to everyone around her being bedridden with "something going around" Chicago. So I made no connection to cascara.
I don't like really to think of things as "allergic."
So, is it that despite emodin being very beneficial, it might be a gut irritant or topically cause a rash for some? -- at least temporarily in the particular state they are in when first encountering emodin. And maybe they can change this state or get over this irritation as ......... (whatever condition changes)....

In earlier quotes wrt to serotonin, "the body uses serotonin to slow down metabolism in times of famine/stress at the expense of compromised immunity, libido, higher cognitive function, etc." So, we have to change the condition to get out of that state --even dramatically change the environment to send your body an all-clear signal or use a chemical to deliver that message.

I think I'm still confused on chicken/egg here. Hmmmm, is the correct question: why do certain rats throw on the emergency metabolism brake when introduced to emodin???
 
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haidut

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Thank you for your reply, Haidut.
One reason I press is that I do want to use my Lapodin on my rat. I backed off and gave her cascara sagrada capsules. She's developed some light cold-like symptoms but this is entirely concurrent to everyone around her being bedridden with "something going around" Chicago. So I made no connection to cascara.
I don't like really to think of things as "allergic."
So, is it that despite emodin being very beneficial, it might be a gut irritant or topically cause a rash for some? -- at least temporarily in the particular state they are in when first encountering emodin. And maybe they can change this state or get over this irritation as ......... (whatever condition changes)....

In earlier quotes wrt to serotonin, "the body uses serotonin to slow down metabolism in times of famine/stress at the expense of compromised immunity, libido, higher cognitive function, etc." So, we have to change the condition to get out of that state --even dramatically change the environment to send your body an all-clear signal or use a chemical to deliver that message.

I think I'm still confused on chicken/egg here. Hmmmm, is the correct question: why do certain rats throw on the emergency metabolism brake when introduced to emodin???

Emodin can cause irritation to the intestine but it is rare and it depends on the dose. Keep in mind that emodin is a such a powerful anti-viral that was (and still is) considered as treatment for HIV, Ebola, and some nasty neurological herpes infections. So, I don't know why you think it's the emodin causing these flu like symptoms when most studies (including the Native Americans who used it the most) use it exactly for preventing/treating viral infections. There are a million things that can cause such symptoms and unless you have a blood test that showed clearly emodin lowered your WBC then we have no idea really what caused it, and whether it is really flu or something else.
 

Sheila

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In my personal experience, and those in which I have carefully observed over time, the dose makes the poison and therein lies the rub. Anything that causes gut irritation - meaning, perhaps, that the dose of whatever - food, drug, herb, environment is too much for that person at that time, or cumulatively - seems to elicit these kind of symptoms in those that are currently sensitive to such stimuli. We may also speculate that this is increased serotonin but there may be other mechanisms. Reactions to emodin are not, in my experience rare, the lower the energy the higher the reactivity for most things and it's a very subtle and person specific response.

Emodin may be a very powerful anti-viral but in those that do not need - and are not dying - its potency eliciting symptoms of non-infective irritation may be too much and generate just the effect it is used to cure in more life-threatening conditions. Who is going to notice a cold/flu/even more irritated gut when you have Ebola? There are indeed a million things that can cause such symptoms and within that number a good few that may interact with emodin, or anything else, to give us all more than we may have anticipated. I am reminded that in ancient cultures, the Solanacea (nightshade family) were given to treat arthritis/skin complaints yet the very same members will give others precisely those symptoms so they avoid them like the plague. I would certainly consider emodin for the plague though....thought I had it once years ago, bitten by black rats at Los Alamos.

As ever, most respectfully, especially of Haidut for his good humour, time and patience with us all and indeed my probably blinkered empiricism.
Sheila
 

haidut

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In my personal experience, and those in which I have carefully observed over time, the dose makes the poison and therein lies the rub. Anything that causes gut irritation - meaning, perhaps, that the dose of whatever - food, drug, herb, environment is too much for that person at that time, or cumulatively - seems to elicit these kind of symptoms in those that are currently sensitive to such stimuli. We may also speculate that this is increased serotonin but there may be other mechanisms. Reactions to emodin are not, in my experience rare, the lower the energy the higher the reactivity for most things and it's a very subtle and person specific response.

Emodin may be a very powerful anti-viral but in those that do not need - and are not dying - its potency eliciting symptoms of non-infective irritation may be too much and generate just the effect it is used to cure in more life-threatening conditions. Who is going to notice a cold/flu/even more irritated gut when you have Ebola? There are indeed a million things that can cause such symptoms and within that number a good few that may interact with emodin, or anything else, to give us all more than we may have anticipated. I am reminded that in ancient cultures, the Solanacea (nightshade family) were given to treat arthritis/skin complaints yet the very same members will give others precisely those symptoms so they avoid them like the plague. I would certainly consider emodin for the plague though....thought I had it once years ago, bitten by black rats at Los Alamos.

As ever, most respectfully, especially of Haidut for his good humour, time and patience with us all and indeed my probably blinkered empiricism.
Sheila

By all means, emodin can cause side effects. Not disagreeing at all with this. In fact, St. Gyorgi has a quote somewhere on this forum that quinones are too powerful to be used for regular respiration and plants use them mostly ad anti-bacterial and anti-parasitic compounds. So, using a compound like that when a person has an infection can certainly cause side effects. I think this can be seen on most people taking antibiotics - they all seem to get some level of Herzheimer reaction:
Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction - Wikipedia

So, emodin, like all powerful chemicals/drugs needs to be used with caution and if the person does not feel it is helping then it should not be used. But it is important to know if it is emodin causing immune issues and that is why I suggested the WBC test.
 

Sheila

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Haidut, I greatly value your work and thank you for your always gentlemanly replies.
Wouldn't it be fun to be able to really see how RBC/WBC vary during the day, on holidays, under stress, after foods, after shocks, day to day. And what other factors vary with them.
Did - for example - emodin cause the problem or did emodin join with something else queering the pitch longer term and tip the system over the edge, with no further energy to compensate?
I have seen, time and time again, 'Harvard numbers' who've died within days and shocking blood tests in the really well. What to believe?
As always, tests, no tests, except perhaps in acute poisoning or trauma are we really seeing what we think we're seeing?
As ever, all the best to you
Sheila
 

haidut

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Haidut, I greatly value your work and thank you for your always gentlemanly replies.
Wouldn't it be fun to be able to really see how RBC/WBC vary during the day, on holidays, under stress, after foods, after shocks, day to day. And what other factors vary with them.
Did - for example - emodin cause the problem or did emodin join with something else queering the pitch longer term and tip the system over the edge, with no further energy to compensate?
I have seen, time and time again, 'Harvard numbers' who've died within days and shocking blood tests in the really well. What to believe?
As always, tests, no tests, except perhaps in acute poisoning or trauma are we really seeing what we think we're seeing?
As ever, all the best to you
Sheila

That's a good point too. I was hoping that Theranos (or a similar company) would launch their fingerprick tests nationwide and then I could run a lot of these tests on myself. I have always wanted to see the effects of some foods, alcohol, herbs, vitamins, etc on some biomarkers within the first 24 hours of exposure. But that hope has been dashed, so not sure what else can be done to see the real effect of emodin on the immune system. If anybody has suggestions I'd love to hear them. Again, I think that if emodin is not effecting somebody in a good way then they should stop taking it. No need to "push through" because a study says some stuff is always good for you. There are certainly cases where emodin can be dangerous. Since it is a powerful 11b-HSD1 inhibitor, in people with low cortisol it can drive it low enough to trigger fainting or even seizure (both due to hypoglycemia). But I am hoping those cases are rare on the forum.
 
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