Does Cascara Suppress The Immune System?

Tarmander

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I have been messing around with cascara for the last couple weeks. It has been great for inflammation, getting rid of restless legs, obviously helping transit time, blood sugar stabilization, and even giving me feelings of calm.

However, I have been sick basically since I started it. I thought it was going to go away, but I have been hacking up phlegm, blowing my nose, and coughing non stop throughout the day. Tonight I noticed a cyst forming in my armpit that is painful and seems infected. I used to get those when I was a kid, and is a great sign to me that my immune system is suppressed.

I found this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23811723

Here is the results part:

"RESULTS:
Emodin (1, 10, and 100 μmol/L) inhibited the growth of human T cells and induced apoptosis in dose- and time dependent manners. Emodin triggered ER stress and significantly elevated intracellular free Ca(2+) in human T cells. It also disrupted mitochondrial membrane potential, and increased cytosolic level of cytochrome C, and the levels of activated cleavage fragments of caspase-3, -4, and -9 in human T cells. Furthermore, emodin significantly increased the levels of ROS and MDA, inhibited both SOD level and GSH/GSSG ratio in human T cells, whereas co-incubation with the ROS scavenger N-acetylcysteine (NAC, 20 μmol/L) almost completely blocked emodin-induced ER stress and mitochondrial dysfunction in human T cells, and decreased the caspase cascade-mediated apoptosis.
CONCLUSION:
Emodin exerts immunosuppressive actions at least partly by inducing apoptosis of human T cells, which is triggered by ROS-mediated ER stress and mitochondrial dysfunction."

This study explains possible mechanisms of the immune suppression: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452342

Along with this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19545739

Cascara seems to have some great effects but I can't be sick and tired all the time! Do its positive effects outweigh having a supresses immune system? After a couple weeks I'm leaning towards no.
 

tara

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Tarmander said:
post 109077
Cascara seems to have some great effects but I can't be sick and tired all the time!
I agree, doesn't seem to make sense to keep doing it if it has these effects. If it really is suppressing the immune system, that does not sound like a good trade off long term.
Maybe it would be a good reason to only use it intermittently or for short periods, rather than everyday long term?

Not an issue with increased metabolism requiring more micronutrients? Are you getting enough zinc?

Have you tried breathing exercises for the cough etc? I found just holding my breath after any necessary coughing helped stop them much quicker. Sometimes coughs can get into a bit of a self-reinforcing low-CO2 cycle.
 
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Parsifal

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I thought that emodin, coQ10, K2 and other quinones where antibiotics?
 
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Tarmander

Tarmander

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It is what you would call a productive cough, meaning I could do things to stop the cough like you suggest Tara, but I think it's main purpose is to clear the lung of phlegm. Definitely getting enough zinc too. It may work better intermittently. I am going to stop for a week or so and see if some of the effects last even though I've stopped the emodin. If the effects last then it would support doing brief bolts dosing when not stressed or you have some time, and then backing off when immune system gets depressed.

Most of the studies I have read say it's great against cancer and viruses, but I have not found much on bacteria. I have never read that coq10 is an antibiotic, so that's news to me.
 
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It is interesting...did you stop the Cascara and experience the infections going away?

it's not Peatish but I have found large quantities of lipo C to really help get rid of infections.

Also large amounts of D3, A and some K2 seem to really help a lot.

Methylene Blue might help also.
 
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It's more like serotonin symptoms...
 

jyb

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Presumably if it's good against cancer, viruses or anything then it can't be bad against the immune system. So this is intriguing. I have myself never noticed anything negative cascara over years of occasional use (sometimes daily for a few weeks at a time).
 
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Tarmander

Tarmander

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ecstatichamster said:
post 115251 It is interesting...did you stop the Cascara and experience the infections going away?

it's not Peatish but I have found large quantities of lipo C to really help get rid of infections.

Also large amounts of D3, A and some K2 seem to really help a lot.

Methylene Blue might help also.

I did end up stopping the Cascara. When I started taking it, I was good for like two days at which point I started developing a cough. It got worse and worse for about a week, at which point I felt like actually bogged down, brain fogged, tired, fluish, sick. I stopped the Cascara, and had one more day where I felt a little down, but by the next day my cough was less phlegmy and I started feeling like my usual self again.

Other then that though, it was great for inflammation and bowel health and sleep. While I was on it I had no restless leg symptoms which was pretty great. I am what doctors would call "immune compromised," with type 1 diabetes (whether that is true...who knows). I am not sure if this made a difference, but it is something to take into account when reading my n=1. My take away from Cascara is that it is good for short periods of time in correcting things, but from the studies I read, it can definitely harm the immune system cells. Maybe someone without "immune issues," would have an easier time.
 
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Giraffe

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This topic got me interested. I have looked up the studies Peat mentions in his articles. I did not have time yet to read them though.

http://wiki.raypeatforum.com/index.php/ ... ies#Emodin
 

haidut

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sm1693

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Quantification of non-proteolytic Clostridium botulinum spore loads in food materials.
Abstract
We have produced data and developed analysis to build representations for the concentration of spores of non-proteolytic Clostridium botulinum in materials that are used during the manufacture of minimally processed chilled foods in the UK. Food materials are categorized into homogenous groups which include meat, fish, shellfish, cereals, fresh plant material, dairy liquid, dairy non-liquid, mushroom & fungi and dried herbs & spices. Models are constructed in a Bayesian framework and represent a combination of information from a literature survey of spore loads, from positive control experiments that establish a detection limit and from dedicated microbiological tests for real food materials. Detection of non-proteolytic C. botulinum employed an optimized protocol that combines selective enrichment culture with multiplex PCR and the majority of tests on food materials were negative. Posterior belief about spore loads centres on a range of concentration 1-10 spores kg-1. Posterior beliefs for larger spore loads were most significant for dried herbs & spices and were most sensitive to the detailed results from control experiments. Probability distributions for spore loads are represented in a convenient form that can be used for numerical analysis and risk assessments.
 

Parsifal

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They say that the gut flora is the main part of the immune system so maybe is cascara reduces the gut flora it would explain that it is "immunosuppressive" in some people?
 

Makrosky

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You described a typical "herx reaction" or healing crisis. Is cascara considered capable of detoxing you faster than you can get rid of the toxins? I know this can happen with lapacho. And besides that, why would you get high serotonin symptoms consuming cascara?The study you posted is concerning though.
 

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"Most of the studies I have read say it's great against cancer and viruses, but I have not found much on bacteria. I have never read that coq10 is an antibiotic, so that's news to me." Tarmander

"Although the standard medical journals have only recently begun writing about it as a cancer treatment, emodin and related chemicals have been of interest as a non-toxic way to treat cancer, allergies, and viral and bacterial diseases for a long time." Peat
 

Birdie

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During the years just before the new drug [Zelnorm] was approved, there were several publications reporting that emodin, the main active factor in cascara, a traditional laxative, had some remarkable antiviral and anticancer activities. Other studies were reporting that it protected against some known mutagens and carcinogens. Less than 3 months before approving Zelnorm, the FDA announced its Final rule “Certain Additional Over-the-Counter Drug Category II and III Active Ingredients.” “the stimulant laxative ingredients aloe (including aloe extract and aloe flower extract) and cascara sagrada (including casanthranol, cascara fluidextract aromatic, cascara sagrada bark, cascara sagrada extract, and cascara sagrada fluidextract),” determining that they “are not generally recognized as safe and effective or are misbranded. This final rule is part of FDA's ongoing OTC drug product review. This rule is effective November 5, 2002.”
RP

Just possibly the study showing immunosuppression is part of the discrediting? Just a thought and not to discredit anybody's experience, which could be explained as Makrosky noted above...
 

haidut

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"Most of the studies I have read say it's great against cancer and viruses, but I have not found much on bacteria. I have never read that coq10 is an antibiotic, so that's news to me." Tarmander

"Although the standard medical journals have only recently begun writing about it as a cancer treatment, emodin and related chemicals have been of interest as a non-toxic way to treat cancer, allergies, and viral and bacterial diseases for a long time." Peat

Is the first quote from Tarmander or Ray?
 

Birdie

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Tarmander used those words above. If I had used the forum's quote option, that would have been clear. Alas. ;)
 

Kray

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Birdie

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A Serendipitous Find means a pleasant surprising find.... Unexpected but pleasant... ???
How can this be a happy finding? Did they just use the wrong word or does the study point to something other than a cancer finding...
 

Kray

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A Serendipitous Find means a pleasant surprising find.... Unexpected but pleasant... ???
How can this be a happy finding? Did they just use the wrong word or does the study point to something other than a cancer finding...

Wondered about that myself-- seems to belong in a literature review, not a scientific article! Unless, of course, you are against alternative therapies!
 
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