Critique of Georgi/Mercola/Ray Peat

[GreekDemiGod]

There are times you do

Times you do? You either need it or don’t.
From my experience, taking thyroid has a stimulant and drug-like effect, but it does not heal you.
It’s like reviving up an engine, pushing the gas pedal (T3, caffeine, increase metabolism) while having one foot on the break pedal (toxins, anti-thyroid substances, nutrient deficiencies).
Once you get off it, you revert back to your default state if the factors that caused sub-optimal thyroid remain the same.
(same nutrition, same intake of toxins).
G. Smith has this concept of “duration paradox”. What feels good in the short term is often likely to de detrimental in the long-term. Most of Peat recommendations are crutches that work in the short term only.

 

[LuMonty]

Times you do? You either need it or don’t.
From my experience, taking thyroid has a stimulant and drug-like effect, but it does not heal you.
It’s like reviving up an engine, pushing the gas pedal (T3, caffeine, increase metabolism) while having one foot on the break pedal (toxins, anti-thyroid substances, nutrient deficiencies).
Once you get off it, you revert back to your default state if the factors that caused sub-optimal thyroid remain the same.
(same nutrition, same intake of toxins).
G. Smith has this concept of “duration paradox”. What feels good in the short term is often likely to de detrimental in the long-term. Most of Peat recommendations are crutches that work in the short term only.

IIRC you're the guy refused to stop over-training to recover at all. Seriously, I don't think you're a bad dude, just exercise some restraint and wisdom. At one point you want to quit the forum because of posting like you are now, yet you keep doing it. I'm following posts by users like Orangebear and find them very interesting and well-written. That user shows wisdom and care, writing out the thought process and how the information is meaningful. It's not good to go through life full of angst man, I've been there. As I already said, stop making strawmen and read up on what you can like what Haidut posted. Maybe the info isn't so exclusive and you'll find something that goes with Dr. Smith's work.

 

[Risingfire]

Times you do? You either need it or don’t.
From my experience, taking thyroid has a stimulant and drug-like effect, but it does not heal you.
It’s like reviving up an engine, pushing the gas pedal (T3, caffeine, increase metabolism) while having one foot on the break pedal (toxins, anti-thyroid substances, nutrient deficiencies).
Once you get off it, you revert back to your default state if the factors that caused sub-optimal thyroid remain the same.
(same nutrition, same intake of toxins).
G. Smith has this concept of “duration paradox”. What feels good in the short term is often likely to de detrimental in the long-term. Most of Peat recommendations are crutches that work in the short term only.

What a retarded take! "once you get off it"

Are you the only experience? Why would Ray recommend it who has infinitely more experience than you do? We live in a toxic environment. Unless you can change that, nothing is going to improve. Taking thyroid has greatly improved my life.

And yes "times you do." There are plenty of people who will not warm regardless of the diet, pufa depletion or stress management.

 

[Mr Joe]

Times you do? You either need it or don’t.
From my experience, taking thyroid has a stimulant and drug-like effect, but it does not heal you.
It’s like reviving up an engine, pushing the gas pedal (T3, caffeine, increase metabolism) while having one foot on the break pedal (toxins, anti-thyroid substances, nutrient deficiencies).
Once you get off it, you revert back to your default state if the factors that caused sub-optimal thyroid remain the same.
(same nutrition, same intake of toxins).
G. Smith has this concept of “duration paradox”. What feels good in the short term is often likely to de detrimental in the long-term. Most of Peat recommendations are crutches that work in the short term only.

You got it wrong. If you are stuck in the loop of degenerative stress and hypothyroidism is affecting liver which is affecting cortisol which is affecting serotonin which is affecting thyroid etc.. giving some thyroid or blockching serotonin with cypro is enough to break the circle, give thyroid time to recover and once you stop organs can take back their initial functions inhibited by the loop stuck. Same for women : giving some progesterone is enough to get back to normal production by reducing oestrogens and I have witnessed that with enough woman around me to have this conclusion. But I am not sure you are now in a position to think "maybe he is right". After all the vitA detox is starting to be head or tail : Head "it works and everything is only vitA toxicity". Tail : "It doesnt work ? You have to go through detox symptoms".

I don't remember Peat ever telling you if something is not working keep going and go through "detox because it takes sometimes 10 or 200 years to see first results". Quite the contrary : If it doesnt work stop, try to find the real issue.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

We live in a toxic environment. Unless you can change that, nothing is going to improve. Taking thyroid has greatly improved my life.

Don’t you wonder how come other people are able to reverse their hypothyroidism through diet alone and you have to take hormones for it?
Great that it worked for you. Are you aware of the dozens of other threads on the forum where people couldn’t make it work?

 

[Pete Rey]

Most of Peat recommendations are crutches that work in the short term only.

It's called interventional medicine. Look at everything Georgi wrote about estrogen. Knowing all that information, in an acute crisis, would you rather try to lower it slowly through diet or quickly with exogenous substances? Medicine doesn't cure disease, but it sure as heck can tip the scale in your favor while you work on the fundamentals.

And elimination diets can fall into that category too. Which, theories on what is or is not a toxin aside, is all this really is. How many people feel fantastic on carnivore for a month or so? There is never a guarantee that what worked for 100 people will work for you.

 

[charlie]

I think I found one of these miracoulous healing reports everyone is talking about!!
In all seriousness with every success story there is one of those

Smith found that vision problems there were thought to be low vitamin A symptoms were actually caused by protein, taurine, and/or zinc deficiency. At different times, I saw a couple of people come into the groups all panicky because they started having visions problems on the low vA diet. Of course they thought they were losing their vision due to being deficient if vA. Once they were informed that it was actually a protein/taurine/zinc deficiency these people were able to immediately correct it.

For some reason, detoxing takes a lot of zinc. That is why its important to be on a red meat based diet and also supplement zinc picolinate if needed.

 

[Roni123@]

@haidut low fat diet (-20% calories of fat) high carb increase or reduce testosterone? the low fat as impact on hormones ?

 

[charlie]

Smith found that vision problems there were thought to be low vitamin A symptoms were actually caused by protein, taurine, and/or zinc deficiency. At different times, I saw a couple of people come into the groups all panicky because they started having visions problems on the low vA diet. Of course they thought they were losing their vision due to being deficient if vA. Once they were informed that it was actually a protein/taurine/zinc deficiency these people were able to immediately correct it.

For some reason, detoxing takes a lot of zinc. That is why its important to be on a red meat based diet and also supplement zinc picolinate if needed.

Timely post by Smith:

View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1749579034420469806

 

[Blossom]

do wish he would acknowledge the many important and trailblazing ways in which Ray put together many different parts of the puzzle that were accurate, even if he did miss some crucial puzzle pieces that stopped him from getting closer to the full truth. I would guess that he is probably mad at Ray because he feels like he was personally fooled into giving himself and clients large doses of retinol that caused harm, but that idea does not originate with Ray, nor does it invalidate the entire body of Ray's work.

Yes, I’ve admittedly had a hard time with that one as well. Peat was my gateway into really understanding how deep corruption was/is in medicine and he taught many of us to trust our inner guidance, to question things and pay attention to our individual context/body and I’ll be forever grateful for those invaluable skills. Ultimately I think that’s what he wanted to do for others. I don’t believe he intended fix people but teach and empower them to learn to listen to their body and figure it out for themselves. He was a rare selfless person and I think he deserves respect for that quality alone. I don’t get to control other people’s attitudes or words about Peat though so and I try not to judge even when I don’t agree which can be challenging. I still love and respect Peat for all he did. Sorry for the rambling.

 

[Veritas IV]

Back on September 30th, 2023, Josh Mitteldorf also weighed in on Mercola's view:

Dr Mercola Doesn’t Like Seed Oils (Josh's Blog Site)​

Spoiler: article

I’ve learned a great deal from Dr Mercola over the years. His orientation toward natural approaches to long-term health, using diet and lifestyle in preference to pharmaceuticals, aligns with my own. I agree with most of what he has to say.

So, when he launched a campaign vilifying seed oils in the diet, I stood up and paid attention. “Linoleic acid found in vegetables and seed oils may be the biggest contributor to chronic disease in the Western world.” [from Dr Mercola’s Censored Library]

Last spring, he published a review article on health hazards from Ω 6 fatty acids in general and linoleic acid (LA) in particular. He makes a multi-pronged theoretical case linking LA to defective cell membranes, leading to diabetes, cognitive impairment, heart disease, and cancer. At the end, he tries to tie these concerns to real life results with epidemiological studies. To me, it seems that the theoretical arguments are strong, but epidemiology doesn’t seem to support his fears. In particular, most nuts are abundant sources of LA, and yet nut consumption is robustly linked to good health and long life.

---

Chemistry background​

Petroleum oil consists of chains of carbon atoms surrounded by hydrogen. These have no biological presence. Saturated fats (biological oils) in biology are similar chains with COOH at one end — essentially petroleum-like molecules with vinegar at one end. Unsaturated fats have a double bond between carbons, which is a place where there are missing hydrogens, and an angle or kink in the chain.
Petroleum:

Saturated fat:

Unsaturated fat:

Comparison:

For omega 3s, the kink is close to the end opposite the vinegar end. For omega 6s, the kink is closer to the vinegar end.

​

(The pictures are alpha linoleic acid, ALA, an omega 3 (left), and and gamma linoleic acid, GLA, an omega 6 (right).)​

Petroleum oils are biologically inert because there are no enzymes that can attack the carbon-carbon and carbon-hydrogen bonds. But the vinegar end of a fatty acid is a biochemically active site, and each double bond in the fatty acid is another active site.

Food Chemistry​

Animal fats tend to be saturated (no double bonds). They are more viscous. Vegetable oils end to be unsaturated, less viscous, more chemically active.

The double bonds make it easier for the body to work with a fat and put it to use. But each double bond is also a place where oxygen can attack the molecule and turn it into a useless and harmful product. OXLAM means “oxidated linoleic acid metabolite”, and it is not a single chemical, but a class of chemical byproducts which, Mercola says, can cause disease.

Even before it enters the body, unsaturated fats are prone to being oxidized in high-temperature frying. Saturated fats are theoretically better for frying because the double bonds in unsaturated fats are target sites for oxidation. So, for home-fried foods, it is safer to use coconut oil, ghee, butter, or lard. Restaurant and commercially fried foods are often made with unsaturated seed oils, which are likely to be oxidized by the time we ingest them.

The benefits of maintaining the proper omega 3:6 ratio are well-established. Bodily tissues consist primarily of saturated and monounsaturated fats, which are a readily utilized source of nutrients that support the development and maintenance of cells. The primary PUFAs are omega-3 and omega-6 fats, which the body needs in relatively small quantities [ref].

It is important to consume sufficient amounts of omega 3 fatty acids to sustain optimal health, with the recommended daily serving being between 500 and 1000 milligrams of omega 3 [ref, ref]. Contrary to previous perceptions, however, consuming larger servings of omega 3 fatty acids does not support an ideal ratio. Instead, excessive quantities of omega 3s may cause additional metabolic damage—similar to that which occurs due to the conversion of elevated LA levels. [from Mercola & D’Adamo]

It is well accepted that omega 3 fatty acids have benefits for reducing inflammation. Mercola claims that animal-derived omega 3’s are better in this regard, on the authority of this review. DHA and EPA are long-chain omega 3s, and are converted by our bodies into resolvins that cool inflammation. They come from either fish or ocean algae sources. ALA is a short-chain omega 3 that comes from walnuts, chia seeds, flax seeds and other vegetarian sources. ALA can be converted to DHA in the body, but slowly and inefficiently.

Examine.com agrees

Omega 3 fatty acids in flax seed (as well as in Hemp Protein) are found in the form of Alpha-Linolenic Acid (ALA). Not only is ALA not sufficient to supplement on its own[1], but ALA has to be converted by the body into a usable form, and the ratio of conversion from unusable form to usable is rather poor, somewhere in the range of 5-15%[2]. Omega 3 supplements in the form of EPA and DHA are what the body tends to use for many of the benefits associated with fish oil.

For vegetarians and vegans, supplementing with DHA from algae can “markedly enhance the DHA status (of serum and platelets)” and “provide for the formation of substantial EPA”[3]. Supplementation of ALA and/or GLA is not enough[4].

Theory​

Mercola fingers inadvertent oxidation as the process that turns LA into toxic OXLAMs. LA becomes incorporated into cell membranes, where it can remain for years. The membranes are then more fragile, and oxidation of LA in the membranes makes them porous, not functioning as the cell needs them to function. A particular OXLAM called 4-hydroxynonenal (4-HNE) accumulates, and high levels can trigger programmed cell death in the same way that peroxide is designed to do.

Cardiolipin, created from four fatty acids, is essential for the efficient operation of mitochondria. Mitochondria are particularly vulnerable to oxidative damage, and incorporation of LA into cardiolipin is problematic for the mitochondria. Misformed cardiolipin distorts the convoluted shape of mitochondria, impairing their function

Health statistics​

The epidemiological evidence for Mercola’s worries is weak, and he admits as much. There are conflicting studies, associating LA level positively and negatively with CV risk. Mercola claims the same is true of LA and diabetes, but the beneficial effects are documented by epidemiology, while the paper he cites for detrimental effects is theoretical. The effect of LA on cancer is mixed, and too small to measure.

In this study, higher levels of circulating LA were associated with slightly lower all-cause mortality. In this study, addition of safflower oil to the diet was associated with slightly higher all-cause mortality.

Nuts — a counter-example​

Nuts generally have high fat content, with 80% or more of the total calories coming from fat. Most of that fat is unsaturated (87% in peanuts, 95% in almonds, 80% in cashews), so Dr Mercola recommends limiting nuts to a small part of the diet. But many epidemiological studies have associated nuts in the diet with modest but significant benefits for CV risk, insulin resistance, and all-cause mortality,. [meta-analysis, review]​

Plasmalogen​

This recent review highlighted the benefits of omega 3s for brain health. The focus is on long-chain omega 3s, derived from either fish or algae.

Plasmalogens are singled out as a promising supplement for preventing and even reversing dementia. Plasmalogens are ether phospholipids constructed by the body out of ingested fatty acids including ALA. Plasmalogens are essential components of cell membranes, especially in the nervous system. Levels decline after age 40, and declining plasmalogen levels are associated with cognitive decline.

Confusingly, the word plasmalogen in the singular is sometimes used to denote a particular short-chain polyunsaturated species, AKA plasmenyl-phosphatidylethanolamine. Dietary supplements of plasmalogen are derived from cow milk or soy, and have been applied successfully in dementia trials.

Dietary implications​

Though there are many things that Mercola gets right, he has never understood aging as internally signaled self-destruction, so he is more fearful of accumulated damage than I think is appropriate. Oxidized lipids fits well with his damage model of aging. I understand the theory, but I think the real-world evidence of epidemiology is more compelling, and epidemiology tells us that nuts and even olive oil are pro-longevity.

I agree with Mercola that the story about saturated fats ⇒ cholesterol ⇒ cardiovascular risk is discredited. Nevertheless, I’m a vegetarian for 50 years now. There is some evidence that vegetarians live longer, but my personal motivation is more empathetic than scientific [newer ref].

I continue to eat a lot of nuts in the context of a low-carb vegetarian diet. I make salad dressing from olive oil and avocados, and cook with coconut oil. In the past, I have gone out of my way to include chia seeds and flax seeds, both for fiber and for Ω3s. Having learned what I did in writing this piece, I will back off the chia and flax seeds because their short chain Ω3s do not offer significant value. I don’t eat fish, so I will continue to supplement generously with fish oil and krill oil. It’s possible to get Ω3s from vegetarian ocean sources, but it’s expensive.

I’ve followed this diet for decades and it works for me, but your metabolism is different from mine, and diets are individual by nature. There is no one optimal diet.

Be sure to also read the user comments posted under the article at his blog.

Josh ultimately claims that "The epidemiological evidence for Mercola’s worries is weak". I personally suspect that his view isn't taking all research into account, or maybe i don't know what i'm talking about.

Unrelated: Josh also has a substack where he posts a few different and intriguing articles; breakaway civilizations, relativity, miracles, aliens and anomolies, oh my!

 

[Mr Joe]

@Pete Rey I think you should listen to this. 53:00 is the most funny part in my opinion where he explains that if a mother gives milk to his baby it's basically because she needs to give him the poison that she has inside of her otherwise she would become crazy. I say that guy is legit !


View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1749849096096186543

 

[Pete Rey]

@Pete Rey I think you should listen to this. 53:00 is the most funny part in my opinion where he explains that if a mother gives milk to his baby it's basically because she needs to give him the poison that she has inside of her otherwise she would become crazy. I say that guy is legit !


View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1749849096096186543

Yeah. Theories on top of theories. I had an epiphany tonight. I couldn't put my finger on it until now. They are like flat-earthers. It's the same tone and tenor, and method of argumentation, and sense of absolute certainty, everything. Even his crazy stare into the camera as he delivered that line. I will admit to entertaining the idea of flat earth back in the day, until I realized it was just another internet bloodsport. Gotta join the team. I always try to give a wild idea a fair shake. I also have to admit that vitamin A was not on my bingo card as the next one. Closing the book.

Danny's crusade against Mercola on Progest-E

I would love to see some actual lists of what people in these groups were eating on The Ray Peat Diet™, and what they eat now. Were they living off milk, OJ, coke, and carrots? I for one have been eating a normal balanced diet inspired by Peat (or at least I thought) over the last 4 years, and...

raypeatforum.com

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Smith found that vision problems there were thought to be low vitamin A symptoms were actually caused by protein, taurine, and/or zinc deficiency

how to determine those deficiencies? Shouldn’t they be covered by eating regular muscle meat/ beef, which most people on the diet I assume they do?

@Pete Rey I think you should listen to this. 53:00 is the most funny part in my opinion where he explains that if a mother gives milk to his baby it's basically because she needs to give him the poison that she has inside of her otherwise she would become crazy. I say that guy is legit !


View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1749849096096186543

Retinol requirements are probably higher for infants and children in their phases of growth. That’s when eating some liver probably makes some sense.
Milk is growth food.

 

[Sherbert]

Usually iron, sometimes iron and copper, though the ratio is always in favor of iron (usually at least 5:1). Have not seen a case yet with only copper overload.

Thanks. interesting. makes sense. and from reading peat it appears that out of those not overloading on both at the same time, those overloading on iron alone were “protected” from any possible subsequent copper overload. A case for leeching?

Iron's Dangers

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

“Too much iron can block our absorption of copper, and too little copper makes us store too much iron”

As far as the relative scarcity of copper overload alone goes, understandable given that the food supply doused with added iron, giving iron first dibs on one or the other overload.

Of course all this based upon a not necessarily representative sample. interesting nonetheless.

 

[PhilParma]

@Pete Rey I think you should listen to this. 53:00 is the most funny part in my opinion where he explains that if a mother gives milk to his baby it's basically because she needs to give him the poison that she has inside of her otherwise she would become crazy. I say that guy is legit !


View: https://twitter.com/NutriDetect/status/1749849096096186543

Emailer: Ray, I haven't had the urge to murder my infant lately. Anything I can do to change that?

Ray: Have you tried the carrot salad?

 

[EnergeticLeo]

As far as the steroids - Peat said in several interviews that if CO2 production is high enough (e.g. a surrogate for high metabolism) then we don't actually need any of the steroids...

I tried searching Ray's interviews for this but couldn't find any references - do you have a link by any chance? Thank you

 

[haidut]

I tried searching Ray's interviews for this but couldn't find any references - do you have a link by any chance? Thank you

I think he said it several times, but not sure which episodes/interviews. I seem to remember he said it during the GE episodes and I think he also said it on at least one KMUD show.

 

[Roni123@]

I think he said it several times, but not sure which episodes/interviews. I seem to remember he said it during the GE episodes and I think he also said it on at least one KMUD show.

with high co2 any hormones are necessary ? wow
low fat abd high carbs are good ways to improve co2 ?

 

[Normal Human]

with high co2 any hormones are necessary ? wow
low fat abd high carbs are good ways to improve co2 ?

Buteyko breathing is the best way.