Coconut Oil "completely Abolished Responses To Endotoxin"

[narouz]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Nowadays only refined coconut oil. In 2011, the first 2-2,5 months I used the virgin coconut oil but when I couldn't stand the smell anymore I turned to refined. It made no difference.

For what it's worth,
I had a pretty extreme reaction to the Unrefined--
severe and prolonged stomach cramping.

Doesn't happen with the Refined.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

To make things less abstract I'll weight how much I use and after how many grams it's going to work against me, as I think you like numbers .

That would be great. Although I'm going to say in advance, that consuming coconut oil with baked goods will not be convincing evidence (for me) that your discomfort is caused by coconut oil. Try eliminating all starch and fiber from you diet, as Peat does, and see if that helps?

It seems you already know that coconut oil is Peat's suggestion for small intestine bacterial overgrowth, or SIBO as you call it (along with raw carrot grated not too fine, or chewed well)?

As far as I can tell Peat's citations on this subject are to a number of sound studies, without methodological flaws, including the one that haidut links to here, and this one, showing that endotoxemia from an injected endotoxin insult, strong enough to kill the control subjects, is prevented in subjects that are given sufficient coconut oil in advance of the insult. Impressive!!

Peat also suggests that you take coconut oil throughout the day in small amounts. He thinks it breaks up the oxidation of unsaturated fatty acids that causes estrogenic injury to the gut. Peat has also said in email that the ketone fatty acids in coconut oil are protective.

What I do not know is how Peat feels about an upper limit. I am experimenting myself and I haven't found an upper limit, provided that you take enough activated charcoal (or raw carrot) to provide sufficient bulk. Based on Peat's writings, I don't see a good reason why he would think there would be an upper limit, provided that, like with coffee, the coconut oil is spread throughout the day and not taken on an empty stomach. Consumed this way, coconut oil and coffee are both thyroid surrogates that are self-limiting, so they should be safe in large doses, I think.

I've also seen (non-Peat) ketogenic diets that contain 85% of their calories from coconut/MCT oil. The ratio there is 85/10/5 (fat/protein/sugar). Seyfried et all have had considerable success with 85/10/5 diets like this in human trials with mitochondria damaged by cancer in the brain and other organs.

Of course, narouz makes an important point, which I forgot, that Peat feels the coconut oil needs to be refined and from a trusted source. Thanks, n!

 

[SQu]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Why not on an empty stomach VoS? The possibility of weight gain when taken with sugar (I don't know if that's correct or not, excuse my ignorance) makes it easier to take sometimes on its own between meals . Also when one wakes up in the night it's useful to lower histamine and unblock stuffy nose. Seems to help my sleep somewhat.

 

[jyb]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I've also seen (non-Peat) ketogenic diets that contain 85% of their calories from coconut/MCT oil. The ratio there is 85/10/5 (fat/protein/sugar). Seyfried et all have had considerable success with 85/10/5 diets like this in human trials with mitochondria damaged by cancer in the brain and other organs.

Of course, narouz makes an important point, which I forgot, that Peat feels the coconut oil needs to be refined and from a trusted source. Thanks, n!

Ok, let's say you use a lot of coconut oil, because its short chains are easy to use as fuel just like sugar. From a Peat perspective, would you need much sugar anymore? If you see it as a (easy to use) fuel only, then there several sources only one of which is sugar.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

The study you refer to, is the same study I referred to in my first post. And said this:

These conclusions may look clear but the way these results have been established certainly have limitations. I don't know what to think of these conclusions to be honest. The last study incubates the gut sections in fructose solution after it was rinsed in ICE cold water. Also the conclusions are made in comparison to corn oil... Like corn oil or is a representative standard control..? And the involvement of ethanol that form these conclusions. There's so many limitations in these studies and I think the results do not shape a completely picture of what actually happens.

study 1
study 2

Let explain me further. The study uses MCT oil and no coconut oil. MCT oil is roughly ~70% C8, ~30% C10 and 2% C12. While coconut oil is 7,5% C8, 6% C10, 45% C12. A single change in 1 element can be a huge game changer, especially since they found lauric acid (C12) to be able to alter intestinal permeabilty. So studies representing MCT oil do not necessarily prove that coconut oil works the same.

If we exclude the conclusions and data about ethanol, because is just makes no sense to us. We see that MCT oil compared to corn oil shows no signifcant difference. A slight increase in permeability in one study, and slight decrease in the other. But is corn oil a representative control? The above studies do not show any information about serum endotoxin in untreated ethanol groups. If we assume that serum endotoxin is a measure of permeability and take the next study into account (unfortunately not using coconut oil). You can see that a diet containing milk fat compared to a diet containing rapeseed oil or sunflower oil (both comparable to corn oil? – I don’t know, but both PUFA rich) reduce serum endotoxin 3 fold and 2 fold respectively. Which to me suggests MCT can’t be compared to corn oil for decent outcomes on permeability.

The study haidut posted (which involves coconut oil) says because of changes in phospolipid lipid composition. This makes much sense to me and certainly advocates for limiting PUFA intake, but unfortunately this study says nothing about serum LPS concentrations before the acute LPS dose or shows an evalution of gut permeability.

As said the studies use “acute” LPS injection, while we’re dealing with chronic endotoxin exposure, from the gut and not injection. This can also change outcomes. Why they suggest MCT protects us? Is that mainly because of reducing CD14 expression as suggested? What if we’re chronically exposed to endotoxin, does such environment also keep suppressing CD14? Or does maybe a chronically CD14 depressed state make us more prone to infection or reduces our endotoxin and bacteria clearance (with maybe unexpected long-term effects - I don't know, just something that comes to mind). So we expect not to feel any negative effects but our serum concentration turns out to be higher and LPS accumulates in tissues as you suggested, what happens if our CD14 counts get back in range when we start eating less MCT oil? Or we experience additional factors upregulating CD14? Are there different mechanism by which LPS can activatebiochemical pathways? (human astrocytes for example don’t express CD14).

I am not against coconut oil, don’t get me wrong. But just supposing coconut can’t be involved in what I experience, after eating >15-20g/day coconut oil (I measured) for 2-3 days, which gets more severe after prolonged use, makes no sense to me. Especially if your conclusions are based on these studies. I have read about more people having adverse effects to coconut oil. I don’t not involve those experiences in my conclusion, but there seem to be more people struggling with coconut oil. The condition of such a person can certainly be involved!

So again, my advice is to keep following your body despite what “science” says. Up on these studies no founded conclusions can be made in my opinion. If further studies show more decent results about this subject, then great and maybe (partly) these hypotheses turn out to be wrong or not.

EDIT: here is the study using the milk fat http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/302/3/E374.long

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I've also seen (non-Peat) ketogenic diets that contain 85% of their calories from coconut/MCT oil. The ratio there is 85/10/5 (fat/protein/sugar). Seyfried et all have had considerable success with 85/10/5 diets like this in human trials with mitochondria damaged by cancer in the brain and other organs.

Of course, narouz makes an important point, which I forgot, that Peat feels the coconut oil needs to be refined and from a trusted source. Thanks, n!

Ok, let's say you use a lot of coconut oil, because its short chains are easy to use as fuel just like sugar. From a Peat perspective, would you need much sugar anymore? If you see it as a (easy to use) fuel only, then there several sources only one of which is sugar.

Yes, jyb, that's the same question I'm trying to experiment with. It would seem to follow to me. I'm thinking of asking Peat but before I do, I'd like to have something concrete to ask. For example, Peat says you need sufficient "carbohydrate" to digest and use protein. Is there a reason why short chain fatty acids would not suffice?

If you have further thoughts about using short chain fatty acids in place of sugar, please share? I'm struggling to find anything in Peat's work that answers that question.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Why not on an empty stomach VoS? The possibility of weight gain when taken with sugar (I don't know if that's correct or not, excuse my ignorance) makes it easier to take sometimes on its own between meals . Also when one wakes up in the night it's useful to lower histamine and unblock stuffy nose. Seems to help my sleep somewhat.

Yes, sueq, I am just trying to be Peatian here, without much basis. But on the model that you may want concentrated foods, such as coconut oil or strong coffee extract, to be absorbed more slowly, then you may want to take them with food (perhaps with milk or other protein).

I am experimenting with the role of sugar, and whether, as jyb suggests, it may not be quite as necessary, when you can rely on short chain fatty acids to prevent glycogen depletion.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

But just supposing coconut can’t be involved in what I experience, after eating >15-20g/day coconut oil (I measured) for 2-3 days, which gets more severe after prolonged use, makes no sense to me. ... I have read about more people having adverse effects to coconut oil. I don’t not involve those experiences in my conclusion, but there seem to be more people struggling with coconut oil.

Yes, I do worry about someone (perhaps like you?) who, apparently from endotoxemia, seems to have trouble even with Peat's core foods of nonfat milk, orange juice, and coconut oil (or even carrot). You are not alone, S.

We know that Peat feels these foods are not causing endotoxemia, and in fact Peat feels these foods are the best available remedy for endotoxemia (other than possibly potato protein soup).

For those out there looking for Peat's views on this issue, the key for Peat seems to be to avoid starches and fibers, because they are a source of many allergens and irritants (and this is hard, I know).

A second idea is to see if you can use a round of antibiotics and/or activated charcoal, so that you can start in a good place, with a clean gut.

[S, Can we move your critique of the studies Peat cites to the Ray Peat Debate forum, which the mods have provided for those who disagree with Peat? Thanks for your thoughtful analysis!]

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Yes sure I am fine with that, feel free to move this post if you want so. I only want the best for this forum and ofcourse the health of people! But let me say once again that this post is not against Peat nor coconut oil. These posts are meant to be against the generalization of advices that do not suit everyone and the first study makes you having this kind of feeling.

I think this can be used to help other Peaters if they say the react badly to coconut oil. Not to tell them to completely keep avoiding coconut oil for a lifetime, but to target an underlying issue first if they experience issues. Because like you said I am not the only one and as I said earlier I have read about other people having negative experiences with coconut oil.

Maybe this could only be happening in people with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth as I have. Who knows?.. Which is also the cause I am having issues with milk. My peristalsis may not be okay as well, as a baby I have had 2 intestinal surgeries. But doctors say it shouldn’t affect me. I have no clear view if this may actually affect me. I don’t have constipation or whatsoever. I hope this someday to be find out, but at this moment I really don’t know more (maybe in few months).

As for your other points. This is what I am also thinking, that could bring me further. I am trying to get an antibiotic prescribed but the medical system is …. (fill in yourself). Anything related to antibiotic scares them out these days, because of the recent studies on antibiotic resistence and poor durable results.

I feel the charcoal I have is not clean. Feels great initially but somehow enhances inflammation after half a day or so. This is something I only tried a few times though. Again I suspect it is because of the compromised mucosal lining having some kind of interaction with the particles, can charcoal be persorbed? (particle size is said to be somewhere between 1-150 um).


Ps. I once read somewhere that Peat himself isn’t using coconut that much anymore. He only advises it when people come off a SAD diet? I can’t recall where I read this.

 

[Blossom]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

One small teaspoon of coconut oil 3 times per day was mentioned by Peat in a recent radio interview IIRC. Since we are multivariate beings I think it is important for us all to listen to our bodies and implement Peat's work within the framework of our individual context. It's my personal belief that sharing our stories can sometimes help others.

 

[4peatssake]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

[S, Can we move your critique of the studies Peat cites to the Ray Peat Debate forum, which the mods have provided for those who disagree with Peat? Thanks for your thoughtful analysis!

Yes sure I am fine with that, feel free to move this post if you want so. I only want the best for this forum and ofcourse the health of people! But let me say once again that this post is not against Peat nor coconut oil. These posts are meant to be against the generalization of advices that do not suit everyone and the first study makes you having this kind of feeling.

I think this can be used to help other Peaters if they say the react badly to coconut oil. Not to tell them to completely keep avoiding coconut oil for a lifetime, but to target an underlying issue first if they experience issues. Because like you said I am not the only one and as I said earlier I have read about other people having negative experiences with coconut oil.

Maybe this could only be happening in people with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth as I have. Who knows?.. Which is also the cause I am having issues with milk. My peristalsis may not be okay as well, as a baby I have had 2 intestinal surgeries. But doctors say it shouldn’t affect me. I have no clear view if this may actually affect me. I don’t have constipation or whatsoever. I hope this someday to be find out, but at this moment I really don’t know more (maybe in few months).

As for your other points. This is what I am also thinking, that could bring me further. I am trying to get an antibiotic prescribed but the medical system is …. (fill in yourself). Anything related to antibiotic scares them out these days, because of the recent studies on antibiotic resistence and poor durable results.

I feel the charcoal I have is not clean. Feels great initially but somehow enhances inflammation after half a day or so. This is something I only tried a few times though. Again I suspect it is because of the compromised mucosal lining having some kind of interaction with the particles, can charcoal be persorbed? (particle size is said to be somewhere between 1-150 um).

Ps. I once read somewhere that Peat himself isn’t using coconut that much anymore. He only advises it when people come off a SAD diet? I can’t recall where I read this.

I don't see any need to move any part of this discussion to the debate section of the forum.

And I very often disagree with other people's interpretation of what RP says, especially lately. I think every one should be very careful in thinking they have a complete understanding of Ray Peat or can speak for him.

The very last thing Ray Peat would encourage is any attempt to stifle or censor a discussion of ideas - on coconut oil or anything else. He would be the first to help someone who was having a reaction to something, whether or not he feels it is protective overall.

After all, to Ray Peat, context is everything.

“Since the contextuality of communication is always in the foreground when I talk or write, you know that someone is confusing me with an authority when they talk about my ‘protocol’ for something. Context is everything, and it’s individual and empirical.”

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

The type of symptoms you get to Coconut Oil Suiker sound like what I get if I try pure MCT oil. But Coconut Oil itself I have no problems with whatsoever. Bizarre.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I feel the charcoal I have is not clean. Feels great initially but somehow enhances inflammation after half a day or so. This is something I only tried a few times though. Again I suspect it is because of the compromised mucosal lining having some kind of interaction with the particles, can charcoal be persorbed? (particle size is said to be somewhere between 1-150 um).

I think just about anything can be persorbed, but starch fragments, allergens and toxins can be very harmful, and cause endotoxic reactions, and for this reason, Peat tries hard to avoid them.

Charcoal would seem to "adsorb" these fragments, allergens and toxins. Peat explains it like this:

Charcoal, besides binding and removing toxins, is also a powerful catalyst for the oxidative destruction of many toxic chemicals. In a sense, it anticipates the action of the protective enzymes of the intestinal wall and the liver.

I hope you'll share more of your experiences. Thanks!

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I don't see any need to move any part of this discussion to the debate section of the forum.

And I very often disagree with other people's interpretation of what RP says, especially lately. I think every one should be very careful in thinking they have a complete understanding of Ray Peat or can speak for him.

The very last think Ray Peat would encourage is any attempt to stifle or censor a discussion of ideas - on coconut oil or anything else. He would be the first to help someone who was having a reaction to something, whether or not he feels it is protective overall.

After all, to Ray Peat, context is everything.

“Since the contextuality of communication is always in the foreground when I talk or write, you know that someone is confusing me with an authority when they talk about my ‘protocol’ for something. Context is everything, and it’s individual and empirical.”

Good to know, 4p. I'm a little new and wasn't sure what the purpose of the other forum was (other than its description: "Do not agree with Ray Peat's ideas and philosophies? Think you know better? Then let's have a civilized debate about it.")

One of the reasons I don't visit peatarian.com is that it's very poorly moderated, if at all, and the many scattershot disagreements with Peat there seem to be self-aggrandizing and posturing. It took me many years to find Peat's work (he really does abhor marketing), but fortunately, it was this moderated forum that I found, and not peatarian, or I might have had a very different, and unfairly negative impression of Peat himself.

So thanks for moderating! It's important work.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

The type of symptoms you get to Coconut Oil Suiker sound like what I get if I try pure MCT oil. But Coconut Oil itself I have no problems with whatsoever. Bizarre.

Yes, there is a dosing issue there for MCT's (which makes up a significant portion of coconut oil) that varies from person to person. The interesting thing is that sufficiently large doses of activated charcoal seem to create a level playing field, where people who could not tolerate large doses of MCT's suddenly can.

I'm very hopeful that this combination therapy of charcoal and coconut oil (and coffee) may be a better answer for the endotoxemia that is so rampant, and for the many degenerative diseases, including cancer, that seem to result from endotoxins.

 

[Blossom]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I feel the charcoal I have is not clean. Feels great initially but somehow enhances inflammation after half a day or so. This is something I only tried a few times though. Again I suspect it is because of the compromised mucosal lining having some kind of interaction with the particles, can charcoal be persorbed? (particle size is said to be somewhere between 1-150 um).

I think just about anything can be persorbed, but starch fragments, allergens and toxins can be very harmful, and cause endotoxic reactions, and for this reason, Peat tries hard to avoid them.

Charcoal would seem to "adsorb" these fragments, allergens and toxins. Peat explains it like this:

Charcoal, besides binding and removing toxins, is also a powerful catalyst for the oxidative destruction of many toxic chemicals. In a sense, it anticipates the action of the protective enzymes of the intestinal wall and the liver.

I hope you'll share more of your experiences. Thanks!

I've had bad charcoal too (Natural Elements USP).Finding one that works well is priceless.

 

[Jennifer]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I feel the charcoal I have is not clean. Feels great initially but somehow enhances inflammation after half a day or so. This is something I only tried a few times though. Again I suspect it is because of the compromised mucosal lining having some kind of interaction with the particles, can charcoal be persorbed? (particle size is said to be somewhere between 1-150 um).

I started getting major inflammation the last two times I took the activated charcoal. I woke in the middle of the night with my face itching and burning only to find out my face had blistered up like never before. This was 4 days ago. It's just now almost healed. I, like you, started to wonder if the particles of AC could penetrate a damaged mucosal lining so I did a little searching and came across this quote from Ray:

“Tiny particles of insoluble materials — clay, starch, soot, bacteria — are all potential sources of serious inflammatory reactions, and the ultra-small particles are potentially ultra-numerous and harder to avoid.” RP

Please excuse my ignorance everyone, but wouldn't activated charcoal be classified, in essence, as a type of soot?

Now, I read on a few sites that AC doesn't damage the mucosal lining of the intestines, but what happens if the mucosal lining is already damaged?

I should mention, I was using the 1600 Detox USP AC from Charcoal House, which as far as I know is a pretty pure AC. My mom, who no longer has a damaged gut lining like I do, is using the same AC and has not had any problems, which leads me to believe Ray's quote.

Sorry for getting off topic, but I wanted to address Suikerbuik's comment.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

...started to wonder if the particles of AC could penetrate a damaged mucosal lining so I did a little searching and came across this quote from Ray:

“Tiny particles of insoluble materials — clay, starch, soot, bacteria — are all potential sources of serious inflammatory reactions, and the ultra-small particles are potentially ultra-numerous and harder to avoid.” RP

These are potential sources of inflammatory reactions. For example,

Soot and smoke contain many chemicals that produce inflammation (Brune, et al., 1978). In the 1930s, soot was known to be both carcinogenic and estrogenic...

Charcoal has been ingested for hundreds or thousands of years, all over the world, and long been considered safe.

 

[4peatssake]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Charcoal has been ingested for hundreds or thousands of years, all over the world, and long been considered safe.

Ray Peat questions its safety.

“I’m not confident of the purity and proper particle size of the charcoal products that are available, so I think bamboo shoot and carrots, along with cascara sagrada as needed, are the safest way to keep endotoxin and estrogen under control.”

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I'll stay with the carrots as much as I tolerate which is 3 times a week, at the moment :) and try to force as little as possible. Forcing homeostasis has always been counterproductive for me.

Gl;itch.e.,
It's not completely bizarre, more types of MCT have been found to alter intestinal permeability, but I didn't mention as I don't feel like starting another discussion. The results are obtained from monolayers of cells measuring transepithelial electrical resistance (TEER) and to me these results are FAR away from anything dynamic and self sustaining, but the results are still there and are possibly dose dependant (or different said: context related).
I never tried MCT. because I could never find a procedure how they "harvest" it. It's obviously made of coconut oil, but I don't know if they used any chemicals or solvents (eg hexane) in the process, to for example alter the coagulation temperature or some fatty acids (just a guess..). It could very well be that they only use temprature, but that is something I could never track down.