Coconut Oil "completely Abolished Responses To Endotoxin"

[haidut]

Several threads are mentioning that Ray has been quoting a study that claimed complete abolition of endotoxin response when rats were fed coconut oil. The study is available below:

http://www.clinsciusa.org/cs/072/0383/0720383.pdf

Since the link when clicked will ask for password, you can use Google to get to the study. Just search Google for "Effect of dietary linoleate content on the metabolic response of rats to Escherichia coli endotoxin". For me, the 3rd result is the link posted above. Immediately below the title of the search result in Google you will see the link above listed as a result to be clicked on. To the right end of the link there will be a small arrow pointing downwards. Click on that arrow and Google should display an option called "Cached". Select that option and Google will display the full study, since the website is allowing Google to read the study, but we mere mortals have to pay to get it

Some notes from the study:

1) Both 2% and 19% coconut oil diets completely abolished endotoxin response. Assuming a 2,000 calorie diet, 19%-20% of coconut oil still amounts to only about 45g of coconut oil a day, which is very achievable.

2) Even the coconut oil diets still contained 1% corn oil, so coconut oil protects even in the presence of small amounts of PUFA. It is the amount of PUFA that matters, and at 20% corn oil the full effects of endotoxin were visible. So, Peat again is right, and doing everything possible to lower PUFA intake is key.
"...Both coconut oil diets contained 1% corn oil. Thus, for diets containing 1% corn oil, no effects were seen, for those containing 3%, effects involving protein metabolism were seen, and, for diets containing 20%, the full range of effects was observed."

3) The negative effects of endotoxin stem partly from its stimulation of prostaglandin production, and thus drugs like aspirin can be partially helpful in mitigating endotoxin response. However, endoxotin effects on liver and zinc are due to some other (unknown to the authors) mechanism. So, supplementing zinc may be warranted in endotoxemia.
"...On the evidence of inhibitor studies it would appear that the majority of the effects of endotoxin examined in the present study are mediated by prostaglandins, with the exception of the depression of serum zinc and increase in liver protein content. Studies using indomethacin, ibuprofen, andsodium salicylate have indicated that depressed serum zinc and enhanced liver protein metabolism are independent of prostaglandins. Serum zinc depression would appear to be dependent on leukotriene production but the gain in liver protein would appear to be independent of leukotrienes. It could thus be postulated that all the effects of fat on endotoxin actions described in the present study, with the exception of changes in liver protein, could be accounted for by effects on membrane phospholipid fatty acid composition and sub-sequent eicosanoid metabolism. It has been suggested that enhanced glucocorticoid production plays a permissive role in the increase in liver protein content after endotoxin treatment. The inhibitory effect of coconut oil would not therefore be due directly to prevention of an increase in corticosterone, but rather to reduce amounts of some other stimulator of hepatic protein content."

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Interesting topic you bring up here. For me personal experience is the golden standard of relativity. And for me coconut oil stresses the liver significantly. Tried it over and over and it keeps stressing out my liver. I guess this is because of SIBO and mediated by the effects of fatty acids on flora, modulating immunity and epithelial layer. So I personally don't eat much coconut oil.

For a more complete view. There's also a study (click) that finds that medium chain triglycerides increase gut permeability. And also a study that say MCT's reduce permeability and liver damage see here (based on what happans in mice given corn oil and ethanol). There are more interesting studies by the way but most involve kind of the same lab techniques.

These conclusions may look clear but the way these results have been established certainly have limitations. I don't know what to think of these conclusions to be honest. For example the first study used a monolayer of caco-2 cells, like these results present anything vibrant and alive?? The last study incubates the gut sections in fructose solution after it was rinsed in ICE cold water. Also the conclusions are made in comparison to corn oil... Like corn oil or is a representative standard control..? And the involvement of ethanol that form these conclusions. There's so many limitations in these studies and I think the results do not shape a completely picture of what actually happens.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

...and for me coconut oil stresses the liver significantly. Tried it over and over and it keeps stressing out my liver.

How do you conclude that coconut oil keeps stressing out your liver? How do you identify the coconut oil as the culprit, as opposed to intestinal inflammation, slow peristalsis or endotoxins, which is what Peat identifies as the stressors of the liver?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

What about this one? http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/10/1/6

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

What about this one? http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/10/1/6

Does this one have its assumptions upside down, if Peat is right? These authors assume there are "lipid rafts" mediating the transport through an epithelial barrier. I believe Peat thinks there is no such mechanism or barrier, and blames much of the bad science out there (including it would seem this study?) on the failure to recognize the crucial role of persorption.

[Edit: I suppose another flaw to consider is that they are measuring coatings of dead bacteria as endotoxins, and since coconut oil is germicidal, it may temporarily increase the dead bacteria? What they have not taken into account is the in vivo reduction in persorption over time from the use of coconut oil.]

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

It could very well be a secondary effect of coconut oil, which is what I suggested too, but that doesn’t change anything to the fact that coconut directly or indirectly stresses my liver. It feels like an annoying pressure/ pain in the right upper quadrant of the body accompanied by mucous accumulation and sluggish feeling. Fats and oil can make this worse IF the problem is severe. This is not anymore (thanks to carbohydrates/ sugars). If I now start eating coconut oil the on sunday I will, without exception, start having slight signs of stress and than completely substituting CO for butter takes care of the problem even within a day. These are signs of inflammation and lipid accumulation, whatever the exact origin may be (I suppose endotoxin).

Back in my low carb/ calorie days I eat lots and lots of coconut oil, and couldn’t track the problem until I added back butter to my diet. The pain was sometimes induced by a severly nutrient deficiënt diet too (also a major stress on the liver).

Does this one have its assumptions upside down, if Peat is right? These authors assume there are "lipid rafts" mediating the transport through an epithelial barrier. I believe Peat thinks there is no such mechanism or barrier, and blames much of the bad science out there (including it would seem this study?) on the failure to recognize the crucial role of persorption.

I think this is looking for excuses. They clearly fed those subjects different types of oils and measured serum endotoxin, see figure 1.

Why would there be no barriers, is your definition different? Persorption is paracellular and to my knowledge lipid uptake is too.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

It could very well be a secondary effect of coconut oil, which is what I suggested too, but that doesn’t change anything to the fact that coconut directly or indirectly stresses my liver. It feels like an annoying pressure/ pain in the right upper quadrant of the body accompanied by mucous accumulation and sluggish feeling. Fats and oil can make this worse IF the problem is severe. This is not anymore (thanks to carbohydrates/ sugars). If I now start eating coconut oil the on sunday I will, without exception, start having slight signs of stress and than completely substituting CO for butter takes care of the problem even within a day. These are signs of inflammation and lipid accumulation, whatever the exact origin may be (I suppose endotoxin).

Back in my low carb/ calorie days I eat lots and lots of coconut oil, and couldn’t track the problem until I added back butter to my diet. The pain was sometimes induced by a severly nutrient deficiënt diet too (also a major stress on the liver).

If I understand you then, you can feel pain or discomfort as a short term response. So this would not be inconsistent with the benefits Peat thinks you would gain from long term use of coconut oil (see below).

Does this one have its assumptions upside down, if Peat is right? These authors assume there are "lipid rafts" mediating the transport through an epithelial barrier. I believe Peat thinks there is no such mechanism or barrier, and blames much of the bad science out there (including it would seem this study?) on the failure to recognize the crucial role of persorption.

I think this is looking for excuses. They clearly fed those subjects different types of oils and measured serum endotoxin, see figure 1.

Why would there be no barriers, is your definition different? Persorption is paracellular and to my knowledge lipid uptake is too.

Well, they are assuming that short term entry of bacterial coatings into the blood stream is a measure of endotoxemia. How do we know this is true? For example, Peat says

The entry of bacteria into the blood stream, which can lead to septicemia, is ordinarily considered to be of importance only in extreme immunodeficiency states, such as old age or in premature infants

The danger of endotoxemia is what bacterial endotoxins do when they accumulate in the tissues (not enter the blood). Because coconut oil reduces persorption, at least over some time, the proposed benefit would be to keep endotoxins out (assuming they enter through persorption, not "lipid rafts"].

Stress and anxiety sharply reduce the circulation of blood to the intestine and liver. Prolonged stress damages the ability of the in-testinal cells to exclude large molecules. Local irritation and inflammation of the intestine also increase its permeability and decrease its ability to exclude harmful materials. But even the normal intestine is able to permit the passage of large molecules and particles, in many cases particles larger than the cells that line the intestine; this persorption of particles has been demonstrated using particles of plastic, starch grains which are sometimes several times larger than blood cells, and many other materials, including carrageenan. One of the reasons it has been easy to convince the public that persorption doesn't happen is that there is a powerful myth in our culture about the existence of a "semipermeable" "plasma membrane" on cells through which only certain specific substances may pass.

About 30 years ago some biologists made a movie of living cells under the microscope, showing an ameboid cell entering another cell, swimming around, and leaving, without encountering any perceptible resistance; persorption of food particles, moving in one side of a cell and out the other, wouldn't seem so mysterious if more people had seen films of that sort.

Also in the 1960s, Gerhard Volkheimer rediscovered the phenomenon of persorption, which had been demonstrated a century earlier. Starch grains, or other hard particles, can be found in the blood, urine, and other fluids after they have been ingested. The iodine stain for starch, and the characteristic shape of the granules, makes their observation very easy. The absorption of immunologically intact proteins and other particles has been demonstrated many times, but myth is more important than fact; all of my biol-ogy professors, for example, denied that proteins could be absorbed by any part of the digestive system.

The accepted description of the absorption of chylomicrons, tiny particles of fat, helps to understand the way medical professors think about the intestine. These particles, they say, are disassembled by the intestine cells on one side, their molecular parts are taken up by the cells, and similar particles are excreted out the other side of the cells, into the lymphatic vessels. As they visualize one of these cells, it consists of at least four barriers, with each theoretical cell surface membrane consisting of an outer water-compatible phase, in intramembranal lipid region, and an inner water-compatible phase where the membrane rests on the “cell contents.” Endocytosis, for example the ingestion of a bacterial particle by a phagocyte, is described in a similar way, to avoid any breach in the “lipid bilayer membrane.”

This mental armature has made it essentially impossible for the biomedical culture to assimilate the facts of persorption, which would have led 150 years ago to the scientific study of allergy and immunology in relation to the digestive system.

 

[SaltGirl]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

It feels like an annoying pressure/ pain in the right upper quadrant of the body accompanied by mucous accumulation and sluggish feeling. Fats and oil can make this worse IF the problem is severe.

This sounds like you might have gallstones. I have had similar issues with fats and was later found out to have gallstones. Now, whenever I start to feel this pain, I drink some ACV in water and the pain usually subsides quickly.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I think if fish oil has a greater content of phospholipids it could envelope the endotoxin such as in the purification technique presented in the gelatin thread. As far as we know coconut oil was the shortest chain oil in that experiment.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Back in my low carb/ calorie days I eat lots and lots of coconut oil, and couldn’t track the problem until I added back butter to my diet.

We can try find an explanation. But the above period was in 2011 where I this issue became extremely prevalent. Because of all the information about coconut oil I kept using coconut oil in amount of 5 tbs for at least over 7 months ths period I was low calorie (~1400-1800) but not low carb. No butter and a few tsp of olive oil. I got into a situtation that I never want to go back into.

Saltgirl I tested for gall stones. They didn't see anything at the echo back then and the issue is mostly gone now, unless I have much stress to cope with and eat coconut oil (in specific this type of oil) and not butter.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Back in my low carb/ calorie days I eat lots and lots of coconut oil, and couldn’t track the problem until I added back butter to my diet.

We can try find an explanation. But the above period was in 2011 where I this issue became extremely prevalent. Because of all the information about coconut oil I kept using coconut oil in amount of 5 tbs for at least over 7 months ths period I was low calorie (~1400-1800) but not low carb. No butter and a few tsp of olive oil. I got into a situtation that I never want to go back into.

Saltgirl I tested for gall stones. They didn't see anything at the echo back then and the issue is mostly gone now, unless I have much stress to cope with and eat coconut oil (in specific this type of oil) and not butter.

Do you eat lots of endotoxin precursors?

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Endotoxin precursors? You mean carbohydrate structures that make up the O-antigen?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Endotoxin precursors? You mean carbohydrate structures that make up the O-antigen?

Starches and grains

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I do eat white rice, but that's to have something to chew on :P. I don't eat other grains, but do eat potatoes (starch). I rinse the rice before cooking, cook it in plenty of water and drain it afterwards. I have the impression that most of the starch is lost. My main carbohydrate source is honey and if present ripe fruit/ juices like apples, pears, raspberries, strawberries which we grow.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Because of all the information about coconut oil I kept using coconut oil in amount of 5 tbs for at least over 7 months ths period I was low calorie (~1400-1800) but not low carb.

How many meals was the 1400 calories divided into over the course of the day?

I did a quick cronometer for 1400 calories and the ratio by percentage of fats:protein:carbs was 56%:22%:22%; and your ratio by grams was 86g/75g/84g.

At least on those days when you ate 1400 calories, as you say you did, I think you were on a low carb fast (I acknowledge that you disagree). I think you were also on a protein deficient fast.

In light of this, I think your conclusion that you fixed the upper quadrant discomfort by reducing coconut oil, with all due respect, cannot supported by the data that you have shown me so far. Harm from coconut oil isn't the only conclusion one could draw. It's as least as likely that your protein deficient fast, or your low carb fast was responsible for any metabolic disorder causing your discomfort. For example, fasts are known to slow persistalsis and cause endotoxemia.

The ability of the 5 tablespoons of coconut oil to "completely abolish the response to endotoxins" may well have been the very thing that saved you. 20 million Sri Lankans say, "Hi".*

*Sri Lanka has by far the highest rate of coconut oil consumption, and by far the lowest rate of death from heart disease, 1 in a million. In Sri Lanka, they might instead say "Hello"; some of their language is based on English.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I am not going to disagree with anything. In fact I always admit that I was under eating to support even normal health even though it had reasons, mainly gut inflammation.
I think I had about at least 6 meals or so, but these were not like Matt Stone meals, hence low calories in total, but a lot vegetables (volume). I never took accurate measurements of the protein and carbohydrates I ate and I count vegetables as 0 calories. As fats I used on average 5 tbsp of coconut oil and few tsp for olive oil as said. I estimate it was roughly 70 grams in total, certainly not more.
As for protein I ate 1g to 1,5 gram protein per kilogram body weight (120 pounds at the time), albumin always tested on the high end of normal.

All this information still doesn't change anything to my response to coconut oil these days and what I experienced before. I do know I have SIBO and this could be something involved, but his should be clear from post I have already made. And there's no difference if I eat this with starch yes or no. Also worth to noting maybe that it's not that I don't eat any coconut oil at all, or that the slighest amounts of coconut oil cause these issues. I do still bake in coconut oil. To make things less abstract I'll weight how much I use and after how many grams it's going to work against me, as I think you like numbers .

Things are not black and white. I am not against saturated fats. Just giving response to the initial post/study, with experiences and studies that show otherwise. If coconut oil works for you and you feel great with it. Who I am to go against your experiences and say you should leave coconut oil aside!? Your experience is what matters and not science.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I am not going to disagree with anything. In fact I always admit that I was under eating to support even normal health even though it had reasons, mainly gut inflammation.
I think I had about at least 6 meals or so, but these were not like Matt Stone meals, hence low calories in total, but a lot vegetables (volume). I never took accurate measurements of the protein and carbohydrates I ate and I count vegetables as 0 calories. As fats I used on average 5 tbsp of coconut oil and few tsp for olive oil as said. I estimate it was roughly 70 grams in total, certainly not more.
As for protein I ate 1g to 1,5 gram protein per kilogram body weight (120 pounds at the time), albumin always tested on the high end of normal.

All this information still doesn't change anything to my response to coconut oil these days and what I experienced before. I do know I have SIBO and this could be something involved, but his should be clear from post I have already made. And there's no difference if I eat this with starch yes or no. Also worth to noting maybe that it's not that I don't eat any coconut oil at all, or that the slighest amounts of coconut oil cause these issues. I do still bake in coconut oil. To make things less abstract I'll weight how much I use and after how many grams it's going to work against me, as I think you like numbers .

Things are not black and white. I am not against saturated fats. Just giving response to the initial post/study, with experiences and studies that show otherwise. If coconut oil works for you and you feel great with it. Who I am to go against your experiences and say you should leave coconut oil aside!? Your experience is what matters and not science.

But the absence of simultaneity does not preclude causality for the starch.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Could be a factor involved for sure. But what I tried to make clear is, that it's not necessarily needed to induce this kind of "stress".

 

[narouz]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Suikerbuik-
Forgive me, but have you said whether you used virgin or refined coconut oil...?

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Nowadays only refined coconut oil. In 2011, the first 2-2,5 months I used the virgin coconut oil but when I couldn't stand the smell anymore I turned to refined. It made no difference.