Coconut Oil "completely Abolished Responses To Endotoxin"

[jyb]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I started getting major inflammation the last two times I took the activated charcoal. I woke in the middle of the night with my face itching and burning only to find out my face had blistered up like never before. This was 4 days ago. It's just now almost healed. I, like you, started to wonder if the particles of AC could penetrate a damaged mucosal lining so I did a little searching and came across this quote from Ray:

What matters also is whether what's digested causes inflammation or dilation, in which case particles can enter. Starch might, but I would guess charcoal doesn't because studies show positive effect in general. Maybe as Ray thinks, some charcoal supplements are not very pure. However, you could source some medical grade charcoal, the one used in emergency rooms.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Charcoal has been ingested for hundreds or thousands of years, all over the world, and long been considered safe.

Ray Peat questions its safety.

“I’m not confident of the purity and proper particle size of the charcoal products that are available, so I think bamboo shoot and carrots, along with cascara sagrada as needed, are the safest way to keep endotoxin and estrogen under control.”

The problem I have understanding an apparent email exchange like this with Peat is that I don't know the context. What was the question that he was asked when he gave this answer? Was the question, "When I have severe endotoxic distress, and carrot and bamboo shoot and cascara don't work, is charcoal relatively safe?" or "What are your recommendations for a relatively safe source of charcoal?" or "Charcoal from [insert source] is the only thing that gives me relief for severe endotoxic distress, do you think it's relatively safe?"

To the visitors to this site with severe endotoxic distress (and if you're not sure if that's you, then it probably is): from what I can tell after an exhaustive (if still ongoing) search of the topic, the only reliable diet solution that Peat offers -- or that anyone offers -- for your severe endotoxic distress is charcoal and coconut oil, in sufficiently large doses. And the only other, prescription solution is antibiotics. In that context, both charcoal and coconut oil are relatively safe, depending on the source, and context is everything.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I started getting major inflammation the last two times I took the activated charcoal. I woke in the middle of the night with my face itching and burning only to find out my face had blistered up like never before. This was 4 days ago. It's just now almost healed. I, like you, started to wonder if the particles of AC could penetrate a damaged mucosal lining so I did a little searching and came across this quote from Ray:

What matters also is whether what's digested causes inflammation or dilation, in which case particles can enter. Starch might, but I would guess charcoal doesn't because studies show positive effect in general. Maybe as Ray thinks, some charcoal supplements are not very pure. However, you could source some medical grade charcoal, the one used in emergency rooms.

Yes, IMHO, I agree. Peat's not written a newsletter that I've seen on the topic of charcoal, but one supposes that he must be working on it. There is hardly a more important diet topic left for him to address, in this age of rampant, seemingly untreatable endotoxemia, but in his defense, his effort to research a topic for a very long time before he takes a position on it may be the reason why his writing from 20 years ago seems as timely now as it was then.

 

[Jennifer]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

This was mentioned in my first comment:

I should mention, I was using the 1600 Detox USP AC from Charcoal House, which as far as I know is a pretty pure AC. My mom, who no longer has a damaged gut lining like I do, is using the same AC and has not had any problems, which leads me to believe Ray's quote.

Are USP standards not at all trustworthy?

Also, my mom is using the same activated charcoal and has not had the issues I have, which again leads me to believe that my extreme inflammation plays a role and not the AC's purity or else I would assume my mom would have at least some issues also.

If we're willing to entertain the context in which an email exchange with Ray is based on, why not be willing to entertain our own? Context matters still, right?

I didn't speak up with my experience to somehow bash activated charcoal or discredit other people's and visionofstrength's own positive experiences, nor was I wanting to somehow crush vision's excitement for AC's potential for ridding endotoxins. That was never my intention. I'm just questioning AC's tolerability for those who have some MAJOR gut damage since Suikerbuik also mentioned having an issue with it. You can tell me all the studies show how beneficial AC is, but try telling my face and gut that because they sure as heck aren't listening to me.

All I know is, the only thing I've done differently over these past 4+ days is I stopped taking the AC and my skin has healed right up!

I apologize to everyone for getting off topic. I'm done now. I promise!

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

Your persistency is worth a lot VoS, respect .

Still I don't think it is this easy. Maybe Peat's "clients" had bad expreriences with the charcoal too and this is the reason he is not so much advocating charcoal anymore?

I think charcoal could be bad for those having chronic gut inflammation. It does maybe adsorb toxins and endotoxin, but it leaves most of the bacteria there and these grow fast normally. However if you "starve/stress" them, they possible morph another bad thing! If the particles irritate the mucosal lining, wouldn't you even be more prone to bacterial metabolites, as you could create a vicious circle?

I think the best way to minimize endotoxin influx is to rather make sure your intestinal lining is in full condition, than making sure your endotoxin load in the gut is as little as possible (both would be BEST ofcourse, and make you immortal - joke. Interesting subject/discussion for sure, I totally agree on endotoxin possible be the second western enemy after stress (inextricably linked).

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

All I know is, the only thing I've done differently over these past 4+ days is I stopped taking the AC and my skin has healed right up!

When I do self-experimentation, I try to write down as many of the variables of the body as I can on a day to day basis. I find there may be many unexpected causes. For example, I think you wrote on Aug. 31 that you stopped taking glutamine (which has the reported side effect of causing skin rash if taken in excess).

Was excess glutamine clearing your system, while the charcoal expedited the ability of your body to detoxify and heal? There are common reports that healing in one area, especially by detoxifying, causes an outbreak in another? For example, as metabolism increases, you need more Vitamin A as a result, and the skin often breaks out. In another example, taking a course of antibiotics to detoxify can cause diarrhea, as the bacteria die off.

Peat often talks about eating something and almost immediately getting a headache; or eating something else and quickly curing a headache. But that's a repeatable cause and effect. It's harder (for me) to infer causation over a longer course of time, with many different variables I'm tracking.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I think charcoal could be bad for those having chronic gut inflammation. It does maybe adsorb toxins and endotoxin, but it leaves most of the bacteria there and these grow fast normally. However if you "starve/stress" them, they possible morph another bad thing! If the particles irritate the mucosal lining, wouldn't you even be more prone to bacterial metabolites, as you could create a vicious circle?

When it comes to the scientific basis for this, I think I've already quoted Peat's description of persorption? My five mile high understanding is, that bacteria are not bad or good, but the endotoxins produced by bacteria respond to the environment. Charcoal has, it seems uniquely, except for coconut oil, the ability to influence this environment for the better, causing bacterial and human cells to be more "energized" (or restful) rather than excited or stressed. Now, it may not happen overnight (although it may), but the repeated used of charcoal and coconut oil is a relatively safe, and assured way to abolish the response to endotoxins.

I think the best way to minimize endotoxin influx is to rather make sure your intestinal lining is in full condition, than making sure your endotoxin load in the gut is as little as possible (both would be BEST ofcourse, and make you immortal - joke.

When it comes to the intestinal lining, less is more. As the lining swells, peristalsis slows and persorption through the swollen cells allows endotoxins to invade. When the lining is very thin, persistalsis is rapid and the cells are energized, such that particles do not pass through the cells.

Interesting subject/discussion for sure, I totally agree on endotoxin possible be the second western enemy after stress (inextricably linked).

Yes, so much so that I think developing a simple dietary "protocol", whose goal is to reduce or eliminate this endotoxic stress (which for me, is just Peat's diet plus dosing and sources), is one of the most important things we can do collectively. Thanks for testing and sharing experiences!

 

[Jennifer]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

I replied to you, P, on the digestive thread. :)

 

[Mittir]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

For what it's worth,
I had a pretty extreme reaction to the Unrefined--
severe and prolonged stomach cramping.

Doesn't happen with the Refined.

I started doing coconut oil before peating. While i was doing my
online digging i found that almost everyone recommends slowly
increasing coconut oil intake to avoid upset stomach.
I started with 1 tsp of Nutiva coconut oil and quickly increased
to 2 TBS and result was not good. I later switched to making my
own coconut oil. I again started with 1 tsp and slowly increased
over several months, it is lot like the way i introduced milk.
Now i can tolerate 2-3 tbs 3 times a day without any kind of problem.

I have not tried store bought coconut oil
in a long time. I believe the most common method of making
commercial coconut oil is to ferment the coconut meat in
coconut water and this separates the oil. I think there is extra
fermented junk in those kind of unrefined oil.
I have seen on line videos where they make home made
coconut oil from store bought coconut milk
( which often have additives) or dried coconut flakes.
I do not completely trust that refined coconut oils are totally
refined and devoid of fermented or other problematic stuff.
If one can not tolerate store bought refined or unrefined
when they introduce it slowly, they can try making their
own coconut oil and experiment with it . I think ethnic stores
( definitely Thai ) carry matured coconut.

 

[narouz]

Re: Coconut oil "completely abolished responses to endotoxin

You make your own coconut oil, Mittir?
Dayum!
I'm impressed. :)

 

[charlie]

 

[ecstatichamster]

This is an excellent study showing suppression of inflammatory response to lipopolysaccharides

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10 ... b3f8cb7d64

These observations suggest that, relative to the n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid-rich SO diet, CO and FO diminish production of proinflammatory cytokines in vivo. This indicates that these fatty acids might be useful therapies in acute and chronic inflammatory diseases. The enhanced production of IL-10 following CO feeding appears to be an additional antiinflammatory effect of this oil, which could give added benefit in various clinical conditions.

 

[haidut]

post 119242 This is an excellent study showing suppression of inflammatory response to lipopolysaccharides

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10 ... b3f8cb7d64

These observations suggest that, relative to the n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid-rich SO diet, CO and FO diminish production of proinflammatory cytokines in vivo. This indicates that these fatty acids might be useful therapies in acute and chronic inflammatory diseases. The enhanced production of IL-10 following CO feeding appears to be an additional antiinflammatory effect of this oil, which could give added benefit in various clinical conditions.

The link you provided is broken, at least for me.

 

[ecstatichamster]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10233721

dietary lipids with different fatty acid compositions upon the in vivo cytokine response to bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS), mice were fed for 5 weeks on a low-fat diet or on one of four high-fat diets that contained 20%, by weight, of coconut oil (CO), olive oil (OO), safflower oil (SO) or fish oil (FO). The mice were injected intraperitoneally with a non-lethal dose of Escherichia coli LPS (100 micrograms/20 g body weight) and killed 90 or 180 min later. Plasma tumour necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), interleukin (IL)-1alpha, IL-6 and IL-10 concentrations were measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). Plasma TNF-alpha and IL-10 concentrations were higher 90 min postinjection than after 180 min, whereas plasma IL-1beta and IL-6 concentrations were higher 180 min postinjection than after 90 min. Peak plasma TNF-alpha, IL-1beta and IL-6 concentrations were lower in the CO- and FO-fed mice than in those fed the SO diet. Peak plasma IL-10 concentrations were higher in CO-fed mice than in those fed some of the other diets. These observations suggest that, relative to the n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid-rich SO diet, CO and FO diminish production of proinflammatory cytokines in vivo. This indicates that these fatty acids might be useful therapies in acute and chronic inflammatory diseases. The enhanced production of IL-10 following CO feeding appears to be an additional antiinflammatory effect of this oil, which could give added benefit in various clinical conditions.

 

[forterpride]

Several threads are mentioning that Ray has been quoting a study that claimed complete abolition of endotoxin response when rats were fed coconut oil. The study is available below:

Effect of dietary linoleate content on the metabolic response of rats to Escherichia coli endotoxin | Clinical Science

Since the link when clicked will ask for password, you can use Google to get to the study. Just search Google for "Effect of dietary linoleate content on the metabolic response of rats to Escherichia coli endotoxin". For me, the 3rd result is the link posted above. Immediately below the title of the search result in Google you will see the link above listed as a result to be clicked on. To the right end of the link there will be a small arrow pointing downwards. Click on that arrow and Google should display an option called "Cached". Select that option and Google will display the full study, since the website is allowing Google to read the study, but we mere mortals have to pay to get it:)

Some notes from the study:

1) Both 2% and 19% coconut oil diets completely abolished endotoxin response. Assuming a 2,000 calorie diet, 19%-20% of coconut oil still amounts to only about 45g of coconut oil a day, which is very achievable.

2) Even the coconut oil diets still contained 1% corn oil, so coconut oil protects even in the presence of small amounts of PUFA. It is the amount of PUFA that matters, and at 20% corn oil the full effects of endotoxin were visible. So, Peat again is right, and doing everything possible to lower PUFA intake is key.
"...Both coconut oil diets contained 1% corn oil. Thus, for diets containing 1% corn oil, no effects were seen, for those containing 3%, effects involving protein metabolism were seen, and, for diets containing 20%, the full range of effects was observed."

3) The negative effects of endotoxin stem partly from its stimulation of prostaglandin production, and thus drugs like aspirin can be partially helpful in mitigating endotoxin response. However, endoxotin effects on liver and zinc are due to some other (unknown to the authors) mechanism. So, supplementing zinc may be warranted in endotoxemia.
"...On the evidence of inhibitor studies it would appear that the majority of the effects of endotoxin examined in the present study are mediated by prostaglandins, with the exception of the depression of serum zinc and increase in liver protein content. Studies using indomethacin, ibuprofen, andsodium salicylate have indicated that depressed serum zinc and enhanced liver protein metabolism are independent of prostaglandins. Serum zinc depression would appear to be dependent on leukotriene production but the gain in liver protein would appear to be independent of leukotrienes. It could thus be postulated that all the effects of fat on endotoxin actions described in the present study, with the exception of changes in liver protein, could be accounted for by effects on membrane phospholipid fatty acid composition and sub-sequent eicosanoid metabolism. It has been suggested that enhanced glucocorticoid production plays a permissive role in the increase in liver protein content after endotoxin treatment. The inhibitory effect of coconut oil would not therefore be due directly to prevention of an increase in corticosterone, but rather to reduce amounts of some other stimulator of hepatic protein content."

So does this mean we can just use coconut oil and nix the carrot altogether? cuz i hate carrots and even after thouroughly rinsing and wringing them out...i get orange calluses from them.

 

[haidut]

So does this mean we can just use coconut oil and nix the carrot altogether? cuz i hate carrots and even after thouroughly rinsing and wringing them out...i get orange calluses from them.

I will post a separate thread on this soon, but what you want is an endotoxin receptor (TLR4) antagonist. Niacinamide is one of these, and mianserin / cyproheptadine are two others. Coconut oil may also be in that group but I need to confirm first.

 

[Nicholas]

it's not just about antibacterial qualities, but also how coconut oil affects cholesterol levels. Ray Peat has said that people with low cholesterol have high incidences of endotoxin-related symptoms. i heard about a coconut oil study showing how it raises cholesterol. many skin disorders are related to cholesterol issues.