Caffeine Vs. Thyroid

[FredSonoma]

From what I've read, it seems that caffeine can be used as a substitute for thyroid hormone. Also, it seems that people with liver / gut problems seem to have problems with both caffeine and thyroid making them anxious / adrenaline response / shaky. Also, if I remember correctly, Haidut (and some other people) have had issues with thyroid but do great on high doses of caffeine.

How do I know when caffeine is better or thyroid is better? Is it just a self experimentation thing?

 

[Parsifal]

Caffeine never adressed my issues of cold hands no matter how much I was taking. Now my hands are a bit better with thyroid but it is hard to dose it right.

I don't see why a bit liver would be the cause of not tolerating these well (glycogene store doesn't explain everything, especially if you're eating/drinking a lot of carbs througouth the day). Yes I guess you should try the 2 to see what is best for you.

 

[GauchoMax]

Never tried thyroid, but I get a very short-lived "buzz" from caffeine, one hour at most, then I crash very heavily.

My hypothesis is that caffeine stimulates an increase of Free Fatty Acids in the blood through adrenaline-induced lipolysis, thus an increase in oxidation of PUFA by the cells. This process, again in theory, upregulates the production of endogenous antioxidants to quench the inflammation, as long as the body is not overwhelmed by the ongoing oxidation.

 

[tara]

I don't know if there is a way to tell other than trying. If coffee serves you well, use it. If not, don't. At a dose that works for you. (My advice for thyroid is: small slow increments)

I have not got coffee working for me so far except maybe in very small quantities, and I'm not even sure about that. I get good energy for a while, then crash worse than before.
Here is one of my working hypotheses for myself:
Caffeine is said to increase the rate of conversion of T4 to T3.
If T4 is being produced at a low rate (probable with TSH>2), converting it faster could deplete it faster. Then when there is less T4, you get less T3 too.
Coffee -> increased T3 -> decreased T3 -> crash.

I speculate that coffee may be most helpful for those who have enough T4 but benefit from help with converting it to T3.
I've starting using a little thyroid supp, and the effects seem steadier to me, with no noticable downsides so far.

 

[milk_lover]

Coffee is awesome if you can make consuming it not stressful to your body. Enough fuel before or while drinking it can be helpful. I find taking aspirin with coffee helpful with stress hormones if you have no optimal glycogen stores (I wrote about this in a separate post before). Since I have not ever taken thyroid medication before, I can't really compare the two.. But I have a feeling that coffee+sugar+aspirin combo might give the same feeling as thyroid..

 

[tara]

post 112130 But I have a feeling that coffee+sugar+aspirin combo might give the same feeling as thyroid..

Short-term, for me. I'm pretty sure my issue is not just about sugar supply.
I don't feel stressed from drinking coffee in the small quantities i've tried - I never drink it without fuel on board.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112134

post 112130 But I have a feeling that coffee+sugar+aspirin combo might give the same feeling as thyroid..

Short-term, for me. I'm pretty sure my issue is not just about sugar supply.
I don't feel stressed from drinking coffee in the small quantities i've tried - I never drink it without fuel on board.

Can you describe the stress you endure from coffee? Do you feel anything physically or emotionally?

 

[tara]

My chronic issue is migraine, and migraines following coffee seem to be deeper and longer.
But also, I've experienced nights after coffee where I sleep long and deep, but barely able to move when I wake up, and more likely to go down with migraine that day. I think the coffee reduced stress and allowed me to sleep deep, but then ran out in the night and left me extra low energy. It's not just about fuel - I've been very rigorous about avoiding hunger stress the last year or so, and I keep snacks by the bed in case of emergency. It still happens. With or without aspirin. And this is just with what most people would consider very small amounts of coffee - seldom as much as a full cup of coffee, and now I'm just drinking decaf.

I haven't tried setting the alarm clock for 4am to top up the caffeine, sugar and aspirin. Not keen to interrupt sleep for that.

But this is me, I don't think it is necessarily going to be the same for others.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112140 My chronic issue is migraine, and migraines following coffee seem to be deeper and longer.
But also, I've experienced nights after coffee where I sleep long and deep, but barely able to move when I wake up, and more likely to go down with migraine that day. I think the coffee reduced stress and allowed me to sleep deep, but then ran out in the night and left me extra low energy. It's not just about fuel - I've been very rigorous about avoiding hunger stress the last year or so, and I keep snacks by the bed in case of emergency. It still happens. With or without aspirin. And this is just with what most people would consider very small amounts of coffee - seldom as much as a full cup of coffee, and now I'm just drinking decaf.

I haven't tried setting the alarm clock for 4am to top up the caffeine, sugar and aspirin. Not keen to interrupt sleep for that.

But this is me, I don't think it is necessarily going to be the same for others.

Migraines. I have no knowledge about them other than peat mentioned I think they could be caused by estrogen, that's why he recommends carrots to get rid of migraines. It could be that coffee increases your estrogen?

 

[tara]

Peat has mentioned migraines often occurring on a background of high estrogen, serotonin and histamine. He solved his ow with carrot, and learned to avoid keffir.
I supplement progesterone, eat carrot salad most days, and have experimented with cyproheptadine to counter histamine and serotonin, amongst other things.
I think Haidut has posted studies showing coffee to increase progesterone.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112157 I think Haidut has posted studies showing coffee to increase progesterone.

And if vitamin E is similar to progesterone, wouldn't the coffee-induced progesterone cause headaches/migraines similar to what vitamin E supplementation might cause? I remember I saw the vitamin E headache/high blood pressure connection somewhere in this forum.

 

[tara]

post 112126 If T4 is being produced at a low rate (probable with TSH>2), converting it faster could deplete it faster. Then when there is less T4, you get less T3 too.
Coffee -> increased T3 -> decreased T3 -> crash.

Some related but inconclusive discussion about caffeine effects on TSH and T4 in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=5376

 

[tara]

post 112181 And if vitamin E is similar to progesterone, wouldn't the coffee-induced progesterone cause headaches/migraines similar to what vitamin E supplementation might cause? I remember I saw the vitamin E headache/high blood pressure connection somewhere in this forum.

Peat has suggested that a large enough dose of progesterone should stop a migraine. I've found progesterone helpful, but not sufficient. I took quite a lot last year. Now I'm down to just a couple of ~10mg doses /day. I don't think I've felt good with large vit E supplement, but haven't been systematic about it so not sure. I take a little vit E some days.

 

[docall18]

post 112157 es often occurring on a background of high estrogen, serotonin and histamine. He solved his ow with carrot, and learned to avoid keffir.
I supplement progesterone

post 112184

post 112126 If T4 is being produced at a low rate (probable with TSH>2), converting it faster could deplete it faster. Then when there is less T4, you get less T3 too.
Coffee -> increased T3 -> decreased T3 -> crash.

Some related but inconclusive discussion about caffeine effects on TSH and T4 in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=5376

I have taken desiccated thyroid up to 6 grains and T3 up to 175ug. Neither could get my temps up to 37deg C, (usually @36.7-36.8).

I have added caffeine over the past month at approx 800-1000mg/day. Since then my temps have been at 37deg C. Also, i have been sleeping better, not getting extreme hunger, and have lost weight.

I am still taking some T3, however the caffeine metabolism increase seems to be independent of supplemental thyroid. My guess is that my liver has been putting the brake on my metabolism, and the caffeine has fixed that.

 

[DaveFoster]

The caffeine dose to uncouple mitochondrial respiration is quite high in my experience; around 1200-1600 mg. +1 for caffeine helping the liver. Caffeine has benefits that extend well beyond its ability to raise the metabolic rate. Ideally, one would use both T3 and T4 (or NDT), caffeine, aspirin, and niacinamide together.

Many of the potential negative effects of Peat-approved substances (such as the free fatty acid release caused by caffeine consumption, and the potential for rT3 conversion) benefit from synergistic substances like niacinamide (which blocks this fatty acid release), aspirin (which lowers cortisol), pregnenolone (which also lowers cortisol), and cyproheptadine (which lowers prolactin, cortisol, estrogen, and serotonin if my memory serves me correctly). Initially, I was worried about the negative effect of caffeine in regards to sleep, and it does increase sleep latency, but the cognitive benefits of the substance far outweigh the drawbacks.

 

[docall18]

post 112307 The caffeine dose to uncouple mitochondrial respiration is quite high in my experience; around 1200-1600 mg. +1 for caffeine helping the liver. Caffeine has benefits that extend well beyond its ability to raise the metabolic rate. Ideally, one would use both T3 and T4 (or NDT), caffeine, aspirin, and niacinamide together.

Many of the potential negative effects of Peat-approved substances (such as the free fatty acid release caused by caffeine consumption, and the potential for rT3 conversion) benefit from synergistic substances like niacinamide (which blocks this fatty acid release), aspirin (which lowers cortisol), pregnenolone (which also lowers cortisol), and cyproheptadine (which lowers prolactin, cortisol, estrogen, and serotonin if my memory serves me correctly). Initially, I was worried about the negative effect of caffeine in regards to sleep, and it does increase sleep latency, but the cognitive benefits of the substance far outweigh the drawbacks.

So, your saying that metabolism increasing effect from caffeine only occur for you at doses of 1200-1600mg?

I use the above mentioned supps, except for cyproheptadine. It feels like it lowers dopamine.

Also, I dont find aspirin does much for cortisol.

 

[DaveFoster]

So, your saying that metabolism increasing effect from caffeine only occur for you at doses of 1200-1600mg?

I use the above mentioned supps, except for cyproheptadine. It feels like it lowers dopamine.

Also, I dont find aspirin does much for cortisol.

Caffeine increases metabolism even in standard doses, but I need a huge dose to feel optimal.

Cyproheptadine does lower dopamine; specifically it antagonizes D3. The benefits of aspirin seem to accumulate over time; specifically the ability to stimulate and soothe at the same time (similar to pregnenolone.)

 

[SQu]

I'm using both and preferring caffeine. Might be the not great t3 I use. Seems one paced, lifts me but I hit adrenalin issues long before I have much improvement in energy. Caffeine with theanine makes me feel far better BUT I couldn't have tolerated much without first getting a certain distance with the t3. You know how it goes, inch forward with one thing, hit a ceiling or setback, inch forward with another, hope for net improvement. Currently I'm attributing improvements in sleep and well-being to progesterone from sun, caffeine, and supplementing; because it's tracking cycle and menopausal symptoms, which is giving me useful clues.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112186

post 112181 And if vitamin E is similar to progesterone, wouldn't the coffee-induced progesterone cause headaches/migraines similar to what vitamin E supplementation might cause? I remember I saw the vitamin E headache/high blood pressure connection somewhere in this forum.

Peat has suggested that a large enough dose of progesterone should stop a migraine. I've found progesterone helpful, but not sufficient. I took quite a lot last year. Now I'm down to just a couple of ~10mg doses /day. I don't think I've felt good with large vit E supplement, but haven't been systematic about it so not sure. I take a little vit E some days.

oh I see tara. Yeah large vit E supplement did not give me the best results when I tried it couple of weeks ago. Now I just supplement maybe once or twice a week. It's interesting to know the connection about progesterone and migraine. Ok how about vitamin B6? Some people find it effective against migraine and maybe if it's reduced from coffee consumption, migraine shows on the surface? I am just speculating stuff

 

[tara]

post 112642 Ok how about vitamin B6? Some people find it effective against migraine and maybe if it's reduced from coffee consumption, migraine shows on the surface?

I've been supplementing ~5mg B6 for quite a while.
I have a long and tedious thread with my experiments and speculation and moaning. :)