Smoking Vs Nicotine. Is Either One A Good Solution? / Carbon Monoxide

dibble

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I was just reading about this. In the first study, The Beta-Carotene and Retinol Efficacy Trial (CARET), the active group were given both 30 milligrams of β-carotene and 25,000 IU of retinol. The participants were smokers and people exposed to asbestos, so-called "high-risk" participants. They stopped the study short because the risk ratio increased to about 1.36 for raw data and 1.59 for their "weighted analysis".

Drinking increased the rate, and when analyzed separately in the retinol/carotene groups yield risk ratios of...



But what is unusual in this study is that the serum β-carotene showed a protective effect:

View attachment 5392

This was followed by a larger study called The Alpha-Tocopherol, Beta-Carotene Cancer Prevention Study (ATBC). This was the Cadillac of cancer studies and had 29,133 participants broken into four groups: vitamin E, 20 milligrams of β-carotene, both of these, and a placebo.

They noticed a light reduction of cancer with vitamin E and a slight increase with β-carotene.

View attachment 5393

The risk ratio for 20 milligrams of β-carotene was only 1.16.

The risk ratio in the highest alcohol quintile was 1.35.

The risk ratio in the lowest alcohol quartile was 1.03.


It's well-known that retinol acts like a hormone; it binds with the nuclear retinol X receptor and induces transcription. Retinol induces proliferation of cells.

Betacarotene is two retinol molecules stuck together but cannot influence the growth receptor. When it is found intact in the blood, it's antioxidant function prevents cancer. It is only when it is cleaved into two molecules of retinol that it promotes cancer.

I think the focus should have been more on retinol, and more importantly, retinol plus alcohol. I don't think that β-carotene can promote cancer without becoming retinol first.

The second study was for β-carotene with no retinol, so higher plasma β-carotene levels would necessarily indicate lower carcinogenic retinol levels.

Retinol is fundamentally different from the vitamin A found in beef liver isnt it?
 

Travis

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Alcohol, vitamin A, and cancer.
Chronic and excessive alcohol intake is associated with an increased risk of a variety of cancers. Retinoids are known to exert profound effects on cellular growth, cellular differentiation, and apoptosis, thereby controlling carcinogenesis. Lower hepatic vitamin A levels have been well documented in alcoholics. Substantial research has been done, investigating the mechanisms by which excessive alcohol interferes with retinoid metabolism. More specifically, (1) alcohol acts as a competitive inhibitor of vitamin A oxidation to retinoic acid involving alcohol dehydrogenases and acetaldehyde dehydrogenases; (2) alcohol-induced cytochrome P450 enzymes (CYP), particularly CYP2E1, enhance catabolism of vitamin A and retinoic acid; and (3) alcohol alters retinoid homeostasis by increasing vitamin A mobilization from liver to extrahepatic tissues. As a consequence, long-term and excessive alcohol intake results in impaired status of retinoic acid, the most active derivative of vitamin A and a ligand for both retinoic acid receptors and retinoid X receptors.
 

Travis

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Retinol is fundamentally different from the vitamin A found in beef liver isnt it?

Of all of the retinol in beef liver, only 3% of it is free. The rest of it exist as retinyl-fatty acid esters:

retinol2.png

retinol3.png


Perhaps the retinyl esters are safer than free retinol?
 

Fractality

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I have an Indonesian friend that sends me clove cigarettes "kreteks".

And I smoke organic American and Canadian tobacco as well.

I recently tried Indonesian kreteks and wow, I have to say they are the best cigarette I have ever smoked. Do you know if they are free of harmful additives?
 

Travis

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I recently tried Indonesian kreteks and wow, I have to say they are the best cigarette I have ever smoked. Do you know if they are free of harmful additives?

I think so. Kreteks are made from non-FSC paper and the only additives are cloves, clove oil, and fruit. However: I am not sure if they add ammonia to the tobacco there or not, a universal practice in America and Europe. Which kretek did you smoke?
 

Fractality

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I think so. Kreteks are made from non-FSC paper and the only additives are cloves, clove oil, and fruit. However: I am not sure if they add ammonia to the tobacco there or not, a universal practice in America and Europe. Which kretek did you smoke?

Dji Sam Soe. Hand rolled, no filter, long cut tobacco, burns slow, have to roll it between fingers to loosen it prior to lighting it, smooth draw, no harshness which is surprising due to no filter (partly an effect of the cloves?)
 

Travis

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Dji Sam Soe. Hand rolled, no filter, long cut tobacco, burns slow, have to roll it between fingers to loosen it prior to lighting it, smooth draw, no harshness which is surprising due to no filter (partly an effect of the cloves?)

Those are actually the very best ones—although the draw is very tight, like you said. The hand-rolled Djarums are also very tight—e.g. the bubble gum-tasting Djarum 76™—yet the unfiltered Gudang Garams are immediately smokable. The Djarums are always the most highly-flavored brands, yet I now prefer the more subtle Dji Sam Soe varieties. The Gudang Garam cigarettes are also very good, and I'd sometimes even feel like buying those just for the draw. Gudang Garam Djaja™ is a fantabulous cigarette as well, and could certainly occupy the №2 spot right behind Dji Sam Soe's flagship variety. You can watch a short video of the Indonesian lady who rolled the cigarette you smoked here (don't ask me how I know it was that particular Indonesian lady).
 

Fractality

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Those are actually the very best ones—although the draw is very tight, like you said. The hand-rolled Djarums are also very tight—e.g. the bubble gum-tasting Djarum 76™—yet the unfiltered Gudang Garams are immediately smokable. The Djarums are always the most highly-flavored brands, yet I now prefer the more subtle Dji Sam Soe varieties. The Gudang Garam cigarettes are also very good, and I'd sometimes even feel like buying those just for the draw. Gudang Garam Djaja™ is a fantabulous cigarette as well, and could certainly occupy the №2 spot right behind Dji Sam Soe's flagship variety. You can watch a short video of the Indonesian lady who rolled the cigarette you smoked here (don't ask me how I know it was that particular Indonesian lady).

Cool video, thanks! I tried Djarum (I forget the exact type) oh say, approximately 10 years ago. My memory of it isn't the that vivid, but it was rather unremarkable compared to the DSS. I vaguely recall the cloves in it creating a subtle popping sound, and the taste being "highly-flavored" as you describe it, almost like a cigarillo. Interesting that half of the people I was with love the kretek, the other half strongly dislike it. IIRC, the ones who dislike it preferred the Marlboro from Indonesia. The DSS kretek is absolutely phenomenal; full bodied yet not overpowering, and no harsh mouth/lung feel. I was expecting a harsh inhale and overpowering flavor; like a Marlboro red or one of those strong Camels. The nicotine effect was balanced as well; no headache or nausea.
 

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