Bone Growth In Adulthood

[brainfog]

Generally yes because growth is mostly about high protein intake. Your 21 not 25, so you may still be able to grow but no one knows for sure. Regardless of age though red meat and lots of protein is the mostly effective in promoting growth regardless. Nothing else really would come close.

Leucine rich proteins are best for raising mTOR and its about raising growth hormones such as IGF1 and mTOR. Dairy is particularly leucine rich compared to meat while also providing calcium and zinc. Quality aged cheese would be the best in my opinion for leucine but all dairy is high in it, gouda is good for example. Keep in mind aged dairy provides K2, necessary for getting calcium into the bones.

In short red meat + dairy is one of the most pro-growth combos.

If this is true why were inuits so short? They practually lived on animal flesh. And yet they were really short.

"The average height of the an Inuit person is five foot four inches. Their height varies very little, less than two inches."

 

[Kvothe]

Yes, but they also eat high fat, so Ketogenic.
The Masai tribe are very tall though and they are almost Carnivores + milk/honey.
Also, the Dutch are high dairy, so high protein.

I don't think that Pygmy people eat a lot of fat since African game is quite lean. I think adequate protein, high calorie intake, and high calcium intake are the most important dietary factors for growth.

 

[redsun]

Your obsession with high meat/protein intake is a little bizarre. It leads you to make pretty unfounded statements like that. Adequate protein is needed for growth, but high protein, and especially high meat intake, are not causally related to growth. You know who eats a very high meat diet? Pygmy and Eskimo.
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Do you just quote me so I can show you how ridiculous you sound? Protein intake and height unfounded? I hope you are joking. Nothing I said is incorrect. Protein intake is the main determinant, but solely high protein alone with a high fat diet as well (Inuit) isnt enough. They have a severe imbalance of minerals in the diet because of lack of calcium sources and no carbohydrate sources in the diet which push growth hormones more than fat.

The tallest peoples in the world eat large amounts of animal protein, but a good portion of it is often dairy. The dutch are a great example. High protein is not the only thing, as mineral balance and carbohydrate content help significantly in bone formation. But 100% protein intake is the most important. You can have as much calcium you like and as many carbs you like but they don't make you grow when protein is lacking or you go about parroting this "adequate protein" nonsense as if adequate protein will make a 21 year old grow lmfao. I don't know why this seems so difficult for you to understand.

It is amino acids that stimulate growth hormones such as mTOR, IGF the most because you are made of amino acids primarily (shocker I know). You need multiple things to go right for optimal height growth but high amounts of quality animal protein is still the most vital component.

 

[redsun]

If this is true why were inuits so short? They practually lived on animal flesh. And yet they were really short.

"The average height of the an Inuit person is five foot four inches. Their height varies very little, less than two inches."

Protein intake is easily covered above and beyond. But meat only is not optimal for growth. There is a severe mineral imbalance (no significant calcium at all), no carbohydrates which raise insulin and growth hormones moreso than fat (which inuit rely on for calories). There are multiple things that need to go right for height growth, but protein intake is still the most important factor above all else.

 

[Kvothe]

Do you just quote me so I can show you how ridiculous you sound? Protein intake and height unfounded? I hope you are joking. Nothing I said is incorrect. Protein intake is the main determinant, but solely high protein alone with a high fat diet as well (Inuit) isnt enough. They have a severe imbalance of minerals in the diet because of lack of calcium sources and no carbohydrate sources in the diet which push growth hormones more than fat.

The tallest peoples in the world eat large amounts of animal protein, but a good portion of it is often dairy. The dutch are a great example. High protein is not the only thing, as mineral balance and carbohydrate content help significantly in bone formation. But 100% protein intake is the most important. You can have as much calcium you like and as many carbs you like but they don't make you grow when protein is lacking or you go about parroting this "adequate protein" nonsense as if adequate protein will make a 21 year old grow lmfao. I don't know why this seems so difficult for you to understand.

It is amino acids that stimulate growth hormones such as mTOR, IGF the most because you are made of amino acids primarily (shocker I know). You need multiple things to go right for optimal height growth but high amounts of quality animal protein is still the most vital component.

Why so defensive all of a sudden? You started by saying that "red meat and lots of protein is the mostly effective in promoting growth regardless. Nothing else really would come close." It's a very clear statement identifying protein intake, and especially meat, as the most important factor for bone growth. That is obviously simplistic and false, and now you start backpeddling and talking about context. It's the same as with your statements about protein and prolactin in the other thread. You said that reducing protein intake can't possible lower prolactin or that protein intake does not raise prolactin. Once I showed you very clear evidence suggesting just that, you stopped responding.

 

[redsun]

Why so defensive all of a sudden? You started by saying that "red meat and lots of protein is the mostly effective in promoting growth regardless. Nothing else really would come close." It's a very clear statement identifying protein intake, and especially meat, as the most important factor for bone growth. That is obviously simplistic and false, and now you start backpeddling and talking about context. It's the same as with your statements about protein and prolactin in the other thread. You said that reducing protein intake can't possible lower prolactin or that protein intake does not raise prolactin. Once I showed you very clear evidence suggesting just that, you stopped responding.

Red meat is necessary in adolescents for iron especially. Of course it is simplistic, but its not false. It was sufficient when giving advice to OP. For the sake of advice to a 21 year old which this thread is about there is nothing wrong with my original post. They have higher iron demands and using other animal proteins such as dairy, eggs, seafood and having very little red meat will easily lead to iron problems. When did I backpeddle? Oh that's right, I didn't. Look at my original post in this thread. I do not backpeddle ever. I talked about red meat first and foremost for iron and zinc, dairy as well for calcium and eggs for cholesterol.

Once I showed you very clear evidence suggesting just that, you stopped responding.

Rat studies... you showed me rat studies and how protein intake affects rats. Not proof, no evidence. We aren't rats. Second was rats as well but it was a high protein low carb diet which I am against anyway. And even then the conclusion at the end of the study was that prolactin supports lactation (duh) by providing more amino acids for the mammary gland which I assume would be for the milk of the animal.

That is what you call evidence, lmao. That's why I don't respond. You aren't the first person to post these kinds of ridiculous studies to me. I am not obligated to respond to irrelevant studies, I did now just for you just this once. Next time if you actually want me to take your studies you post seriously, make sure they are worth taking seriously.

 

[Kvothe]

That is what you call evidence, lmao. That's why I don't respond. You aren't the first person to post these kinds of ridiculous studies to me. I am not obligated to respond to irrelevant studies, I did now just for you just this once. Next time if you actually want me to take your studies you post seriously, make sure they are worth taking seriously

I think you are only showing that it is impossible to have a rationale, fact-based discussion with you. Whenver you are confronted with contrarian evidence, you simply ignore it or respond by saying that "it's ridiculous rat studies". If rats studies are ridiculopus or useless, I wonder why we still conduct them as the basis for further, human research. If you want human evidence, you can look at intervention studies like this one, showing that LPHC diets increase testosterone, decrease cortisol, and increase SHBG.

Diet-hormone interactions: Protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man - ScienceDirect

Your point that these studies usually don't have a HPHC control group is relevant, but animals studies that have one suggest that the benefit is due to the low protein content of the diets. Saying that high-protein diets are not bad because they don't contain enough carbohydrate sounds more like an attempt to defend the typical bodybuilding diet of rice and meat, rather than a valid argument.

Dietary Protein to Carbohydrate Ratio and Caloric Restriction: Comparing Metabolic Outcomes in Mice. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[baccheion]

I think you are only showing that it is impossible to have a rationale, fact-based discussion with you. Whenver you are confronted with contrarian evidence, you simply ignore it or respond by saying that "it's ridiculous rat studies". If rats studies are ridiculopus or useless, I wonder why we still conduct them as the basis for further, human research. If you want human evidence, you can look at intervention studies like this one, showing that LPHC diets increase testosterone, decrease cortisol, and increase SHBG.

Diet-hormone interactions: Protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man - ScienceDirect

Your point that these studies usually don't have a HPHC control group is relevant, but animals studies that have one suggest that the benefit is due to the low protein content of the diets. Saying that high-protein diets are not bad because they don't contain enough carbohydrate sounds more like an attempt to defend the typical bodybuilding diet of rice and meat, rather than a valid argument.

Dietary Protein to Carbohydrate Ratio and Caloric Restriction: Comparing Metabolic Outcomes in Mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Proteins and PUFAs have no effect on testosterone. Other macros (?) increase testosterone. Therefore, the less of the former present, the more testosterone boosting that's possible.

testosterone = (calories * carbs * MUFA * SFA) / (protein * PUFA)

Maximize the numerator and minimize the denominator while maintaining all around sufficiency.

 

[redsun]

I think you are only showing that it is impossible to have a rationale, fact-based discussion with you. Whenver you are confronted with contrarian evidence, you simply ignore it or respond by saying that "it's ridiculous rat studies". If rats studies are ridiculopus or useless, I wonder why we still conduct them as the basis for further, human research.

You wonder why we conduct studies with rats first and not humans. There is no need to wonder, it is already known. Results in rats studies do not in any way prove that human experiments will have the same results.

You just don't know when to stop it seems because now you post studies about the effects of low protein high carb diet on testosterone, cortisol, SHBG (which I don't even disagree with, you just assume I do) when you were trying to tell me how wrong I am about protein and prolactin. I understand that I bother you, doesn't mean you can just continue to pollute threads with irrelevant studies and call me out for not responding.

 

[Kvothe]

You just don't know when to stop it seems because now you post studies about the effects of low protein high carb diet on testosterone, cortisol, SHBG (which I don't even disagree with, you just assume I do) when you were trying to tell me how wrong I am about protein and prolactin.

Your attempts at ignoring the facts are obvious to anyone trying to follow my argument. If these men have elevated testosterone and reduced cortisol, what do you think will happen to their prolactin? Factual argumentation is not pollution - repeating the same old (wrong) argument about the beneficial effects of high-protein diets, without any evidence, is. If it makes you feel good, convince yourself of the beneficial nature of beefcake diets over and over again, but try not to bring your "eat a lot of meat" advice into every thread you participate in.

 

[redsun]

Your attempts at ignoring the facts are obvious to anyone trying to follow my argument. If these men have elevated testosterone and reduced cortisol, what do you think will happen to their prolactin? Factual argumentation is not pollution - repeating the same old (wrong) argument about the beneficial effects of high-protein diets, without any evidence, is. If it makes you feel good, convince yourself of the beneficial nature of beefcake diets over and over again, but try not to bring your "eat a lot of meat" advice into every thread you participate in.

Oh no, another one of these "you're a beefcake recommending a beef cake diet" posters again lmao. It all makes sense now. I hate beefcakes more than you do so try harder.

 

[Jamesu]

Okay. So I think I can extrapolate a few points from this thread.

- PUFA depletion, as always, the fountain of potential in Peat ville:
- Keep protein quality high, and get it from dairy>eggs>meat
- Consistent protein in relation to bodyweight
- abundance of fat soluble vitamins
- moderate stress to the skeletal system via sprinting/ compound weights will drive change towards adaptation

All this seems quite basic but I've seen results with:
- 60mg of k2 and high levels of vitamin D naturally and orally daily
- 5mg of taurine daily
- Consistent high dose of vitamin c twice daily
- Increased caloric intake and exercise
- Postural changes which project the bodies idle vector forces into optimal positions (head, sholders, tongue)

How does this sound?

 

[Jamesu]

Bump

 

[SonOfEurope]

I was able to squeeze one last 1 inch and 1/2 between 26 and 28, (5'8 > 5'10.5) with Progesterone and DHEA, weightlifting, Sprinting and a very low POOPHA diet with lots of sunshine and Vit D . Protein intake was always 130 - 160g... Meat, Gelatinous meat and eggs.

But then again all my bones got Thicker, wrist measurement, neck fingers shoulder size etc... 166lbs to 186lbs...

It was a total "androgenic" growth spurt in thickness and a bit in height.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

In terms of bone remodeling, I think one of the best, most basic ways to enhance it, sidestepping more 'hormonal' things like vitamins K and D, is to increase CO2 and calcium.

Increasing CO2 increases the acidic load on the body, mainly in the blood, and the main defense the body has for this is releasing calcium from bones to buffer the carbonic acid/CO2. As well, a significant portion of bone itself is CO2/carbonate.

The way this works is that osteoclasts (the bone cells that breakdown and ultimately remodel bone) are activated by low/acidic pH.

However for this to be effective you must also increase calcium in the diet significantly. Increasing CO2 will increase your need for calcium, which is good. You'll likely "waste" a lot of calcium in the urine, but the remaining calcium leftover in the body will be used in a more efficient, effective, and intelligent way then if you just kept calcium and CO2 low and didn't "waste" much in the urine.

So yeah. Besides stuff like Vitamin D / Vitamin K, anabolic agents, androgens, etc, one of the best things to do is increase calcium in the diet a lot and increase the amount if CO2 you breath in. Also increasing other electrolytes like sodium/magnesium/potassium is probably a good idea too (to conserve even more calcium).

Also, another benefit with high CO2 and thus higher acidity is that ammonia excretion becomes much faster and more efficient. More carbonic acid means more ammonia can be paired creating ammonium carbonate which can be excreted in the urine.

High CO2 will increase the rate of bone remodeling, but a high enough calcium intake will offset any weakening or density loss, and thus you'll be left in the end with an equal or higher bone mineral density + much higher rate of bone remodeling, which if combined with anabolic agents and physical exercises, should give you the result you want.

 

[SonOfEurope]

In terms of bone remodeling, I think one of the best, most basic ways to enhance it, sidestepping more 'hormonal' things like vitamins K and D, is to increase CO2 and calcium.

Increasing CO2 increases the acidic load on the body, mainly in the blood, and the main defense the body has for this is releasing calcium from bones to buffer the carbonic acid/CO2. As well, a significant portion of bone itself is CO2/carbonate.

The way this works is that osteoclasts (the bone cells that breakdown and ultimately remodel bone) are activated by low/acidic pH.

However for this to be effective you must also increase calcium in the diet significantly. Increasing CO2 will increase your need for calcium, which is good. You'll likely "waste" a lot of calcium in the urine, but the remaining calcium leftover in the body will be used in a more efficient, effective, and intelligent way then if you just kept calcium and CO2 low and didn't "waste" much in the urine.

So yeah. Besides stuff like Vitamin D / Vitamin K, anabolic agents, androgens, etc, one of the best things to do is increase calcium in the diet a lot and increase the amount if CO2 you breath in. Also increasing other electrolytes like sodium/magnesium/potassium is probably a good idea too (to conserve even more calcium).

Also, another benefit with high CO2 and thus higher acidity is that ammonia excretion becomes much faster and more efficient. More carbonic acid means more ammonia can be paired creating ammonium carbonate which can be excreted in the urine.

High CO2 will increase the rate of bone remodeling, but a high enough calcium intake will offset any weakening or density loss, and thus you'll be left in the end with an equal or higher bone mineral density + much higher rate of bone remodeling, which if combined with anabolic agents and physical exercises, should give you the result you want.

Thank you for the excellent Post!

 

[Grischbal]

@haidut can you please talk about puberty and height growth alltogether in the next podcast with Peat and Danny? Would love to hear all your opinions on it

 

[Orius]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned weight bearing exercise. I have osteoporosis in my spine from steroid use and during remission periods I've made huge bone gains by doing weight bearing exercise, taking boron/magnesium/calcium, and periods of DHEA and pregnenolone.

If you're under 25 then you can still maximize bone density

Weights are the biggest component.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Okay. So I think I can extrapolate a few points from this thread.

- PUFA depletion, as always, the fountain of potential in Peat ville:
- Keep protein quality high, and get it from dairy>eggs>meat
- Consistent protein in relation to bodyweight
- abundance of fat soluble vitamins
- moderate stress to the skeletal system via sprinting/ compound weights will drive change towards adaptation

All this seems quite basic but I've seen results with:
- 60mg of k2 and high levels of vitamin D naturally and orally daily
- 5mg of taurine daily
- Consistent high dose of vitamin c twice daily
- Increased caloric intake and exercise
- Postural changes which project the bodies idle vector forces into optimal positions (head, sholders, tongue)

How does this sound?

No Vitamin C; heavy metals. Also too much Oxalic Acid in the end, limiting Calcium usage and uptake.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

I think lots of walking (after a good warm meal), correct posture, (as op mentioned, spine, neck, tongue) deep back muscle exercises (Scoliosis exercises); and perhaps sprinting; are a good alternative to weights for bone resistance. Weights will just drain Glycogen, Zinc etc. , First achieve good health then heavy weights. Arnold wouldn't have been able to train, work, study with a low to medium carb diet and sleep 6 hours with slow metabolism (but muh steroids; Arnold had natural Steroidogenesis from good Thyroid, PEDs aside) and without crushing hard.