UNREAL SYMPTOMS; Accutane Side Effects Still The Culprit Of My Suffering? Or Is It Something Else?

[LambdaAlpha]

Hello all. I've been a lurker on these forums for quite a while. Some of the methods and ideas here appear sound and reasonable. So i decided to make an account to discuss these topics directly. Here is the story regarding my current health/situation. When i was 18/19 i took accutane do to extremely severe acne (which i believe was due to extremely high androgens) atthe time, i was a fool. I would do anything to get rid of my acne/oily skin (including unknowingly castrate myself). I honestly think i was born a genetic freak , haha. Before accutane i had an insatiable sex drive, almost unquenchable...i took it for granted. I also could build and maintain muscle mass like i was on steroids, extreme hytrophy/muscle definition just from bodyweight exercises etc...deep voice just generally extremely masculine traits. Then comes accutane...within the first week at 50 mg i noticed my libido was decreasing which had NEVER happened in my life...i initially ignored it and thought the end result was worth it. Fast forward 2 months into accutane, libido was still wack, but then a new symptom arose...gynecomastia. I had never had it in my life. Always had perfect small nipples...all of a sudden they were itching and getting puffy and droopy and i could feel actual tissue. A week later a said screw it and quit cold turkey...

A couple of weeks later,Things were decent...libido started to slowly return, albeit i still had minor ed. Gyno was still very prevelant and was debilitating...i'd always tried to show of my pecs as much as possible, now i tried to hide them. I noticed feminine fat distribution in certain parts of my body aswell...hips gained more fat, legs looked feminine, muscle tone decreased, and i ***t you not on this next symptom...my head/skull bone changed. Almost like finasteride users report, like a grey alien look. My skin was mostly acne free and dry as a desert...honestly even with no acne it looked worse. I liked my skin better when it was plump and moist. Also, no longer did i look at almost every girl i see and get aroused...it took alot. Fast forward about a year and a few months later, I'm now 21. My gyno has moistly receded, my muscle tone and anabolic growth i had pre accutane are all back. No more female fat patterns...the strange thing is...i have some symptoms that i never had before accutane at 18, and i don't know if i should continue to blame the accutane or consider this seperate. My libido is iffy. Some days it is 10/10 pre tane levels...other days it's asexual tier. I have ibs c, and gerd severely...i poop little tiny pebbles 99% of the time...it's extremely debilitating, i have severe gerd that causes me to choke and barely get any sleep. I'll hwvebdays were i feel completely normal and amazing. Tjen there's days where i feel like I'm going to drop dead at any second...aka feel like utter garbage dizziness, breathlessness, nausea, general malice. I started researching natural treatments for all of these things, something i never had to do in my life. I was fine 2 years ago. Not anymore...i've sern things like magnesium, zinc, vitamin e, vit d etc. The things that usually work for everyone actually make me worse haha! Except vit d. Magnesium actually makes my gyno/sensitive nipples return, something that hasnt happened in over a year, i have no idea why. Zinc does the same, huge increase in gyno flare, more than mag. Vitamin E instead of increasing my libido, it makes me asexual, and can barely get it up, no joke. The doc said i was vit d deficient and I've been supplimenting since about a week ago. Havn't really noticed anything good or bad. On the outside i look to be perfect health, have a defined ripped body and look general healthy (178, 6'2, 11% bf). Yet on the inside it's like a direct contradiction...it's like my bodies going astray. I look 21 but some days i feel 99. Other days i feel better than i did pre accutane. I honestly have no idea wtf is wrong with me. I've contemplated suicide becsuse the only person that could figure this out is Dr. House. It honestly makes no sense. Feel like I'm switching into different bodies...every second/hour/day/week. I'll feel fine one hour and like garbage the next, i can't pinpoint what changes happened (i.e calorie intake, protein, suppliments etc) when i feel the change so i have no idea wtf is doing it. Did the accutane just jack something up that's irreparable? Did it jack something up that can be fixed with the right suppliments? Or is this something completely seperate from the tane? What do you guys think...please help me i want my life back. People don't believe how miserable i feel somedays when they look at me. They think I'm in tip top shape. Definately not the case...i want to die most days.

 

[wrath]

Hi, definitely what others are reporting because of accutane.
Is there a way we can talk?

 

[LambdaAlpha]

Yeah, I'd love to talk.

 

[Dhair]

Do you have labs that you can share with us?

 

[nbznj]

if you're a true 11%, which is pretty damn ripped and veiny all over, then your body is struggling because of this. I think you should drop all supplements besides vitamin D, focus on eating more. Maybe get lab tests done for SHBG, accutane raises it a bunch and being low bodyfat doesn't help. Your hormones sound like they are all over the place. Might want to check the thyroid.

A proper caloric diet rich in sugar could work, but labs needed first IMHO

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think we should have official Accutane hating thread. It’s maybe not as many people as Finasteride, but still lots with Post Accutane Syndrome.

 

[LambdaAlpha]

I do not have labs...but i got bloodwork a couple of months ago and my male hormones were "extremely high". Which is weird...msybe accutane does more than hormonal damage. Every now and then i get bouts were my acne is extremely severe/oily face like pre tane. I usually feel alot better...then it'll switch back to clear dry dead skin a week later and i feel like crap. It's like my bodies trying to fix itself but somethings haulting it. ...it's like somethings just off in my body. Some solutions I've heard from others don't work. I.e Magnesium Gives me gyno like the accutane (wtf, how is this even possible?) Vitamin E...kills libido and makes me asexual haha, no joke.

 

[Amazoniac]

Hello all. I've been a lurker on these forums for quite a while. Some of the methods and ideas here appear sound and reasonable. So i decided to make an account to discuss these topics directly. Here is the story regarding my current health/situation. When i was 18/19 i took accutane do to extremely severe acne (which i believe was due to extremely high androgens) atthe time, i was a fool. I would do anything to get rid of my acne/oily skin (including unknowingly castrate myself). I honestly think i was born a genetic freak , haha. Before accutane i had an insatiable sex drive, almost unquenchable...i took it for granted. I also could build and maintain muscle mass like i was on steroids, extreme hytrophy/muscle definition just from bodyweight exercises etc...deep voice just generally extremely masculine traits. Then comes accutane...within the first week at 50 mg i noticed my libido was decreasing which had NEVER happened in my life...i initially ignored it and thought the end result was worth it. Fast forward 2 months into accutane, libido was still wack, but then a new symptom arose...gynecomastia. I had never had it in my life. Always had perfect small nipples...all of a sudden they were itching and getting puffy and droopy and i could feel actual tissue. A week later a said screw it and quit cold turkey...

A couple of weeks later,Things were decent...libido started to slowly return, albeit i still had minor ed. Gyno was still very prevelant and was debilitating...i'd always tried to show of my pecs as much as possible, now i tried to hide them. I noticed feminine fat distribution in certain parts of my body aswell...hips gained more fat, legs looked feminine, muscle tone decreased, and i ***t you not on this next symptom...my head/skull bone changed. Almost like finasteride users report, like a grey alien look. My skin was mostly acne free and dry as a desert...honestly even with no acne it looked worse. I liked my skin better when it was plump and moist. Also, no longer did i look at almost every girl i see and get aroused...it took alot. Fast forward about a year and a few months later, I'm now 21. My gyno has moistly receded, my muscle tone and anabolic growth i had pre accutane are all back. No more female fat patterns...the strange thing is...i have some symptoms that i never had before accutane at 18, and i don't know if i should continue to blame the accutane or consider this seperate. My libido is iffy. Some days it is 10/10 pre tane levels...other days it's asexual tier. I have ibs c, and gerd severely...i poop little tiny pebbles 99% of the time...it's extremely debilitating, i have severe gerd that causes me to choke and barely get any sleep. I'll hwvebdays were i feel completely normal and amazing. Tjen there's days where i feel like I'm going to drop dead at any second...aka feel like utter garbage dizziness, breathlessness, nausea, general malice. I started researching natural treatments for all of these things, something i never had to do in my life. I was fine 2 years ago. Not anymore...i've sern things like magnesium, zinc, vitamin e, vit d etc. The things that usually work for everyone actually make me worse haha! Except vit d. Magnesium actually makes my gyno/sensitive nipples return, something that hasnt happened in over a year, i have no idea why. Zinc does the same, huge increase in gyno flare, more than mag. Vitamin E instead of increasing my libido, it makes me asexual, and can barely get it up, no joke. The doc said i was vit d deficient and I've been supplimenting since about a week ago. Havn't really noticed anything good or bad. On the outside i look to be perfect health, have a defined ripped body and look general healthy (178, 6'2, 11% bf). Yet on the inside it's like a direct contradiction...it's like my bodies going astray. I look 21 but some days i feel 99. Other days i feel better than i did pre accutane. I honestly have no idea wtf is wrong with me. I've contemplated suicide becsuse the only person that could figure this out is Dr. House. It honestly makes no sense. Feel like I'm switching into different bodies...every second/hour/day/week. I'll feel fine one hour and like garbage the next, i can't pinpoint what changes happened (i.e calorie intake, protein, suppliments etc) when i feel the change so i have no idea wtf is doing it. Did the accutane just jack something up that's irreparable? Did it jack something up that can be fixed with the right suppliments? Or is this something completely seperate from the tane? What do you guys think...please help me i want my life back. People don't believe how miserable i feel somedays when they look at me. They think I'm in tip top shape. Definately not the case...i want to die most days.

Here is some of the collected info on Accutane, theory that is acts like Fin/progestins, so explains how to resolve acne, but you have to deal with potassium first if its high and if low could go the manganese route.

"Same thing with accutane people. Accutane is an active vitamin A, it is retinoic acid. it bypasses all the regulations in retinoid pathway. Now go and see what is in retinoic pathway, ZINC takes retinol and converts to retinal, then you need NAD then you need aldehyde enzymes to convert it further down to retinoic acid. Accutane bypasses all of this. This tanks your Zinc, NAD, b2, molybdenum, Magnesium, B6. Same exact things needed for 3 beta HSD. Retinoic acid is what produces Progesterone.

Acne will be cleared with an active retinoic acid. To make that acid in your body, you don’t take ACCUTANE. You take Zinc, NAD, B6, Magnesium and then Manganese(might not be needed) molybdenum and b2. that is all.

Never take end of the pathway products, they will kill all the minerals and cofactors in the pathway. If you see some claim that some product cures something. Just look at the pathway and feed the pathway.

You see claim Accutane cures acne. Boom, you just open retinoic metabolism and feed the cofactors from the beginning. Zinc, then NAD, then B6 then molybdenum and b2

Like to make Progesterone you need retinoic acid and 3 beta HSD. You just need to feed the cofactors for that pathway, and never the end product, since if you feed the end product it kills all the cofactors in the pathway.

Liver does not have active vitamin A. Liver has retinol. active vitamin A is accutane which is retinoic acid, which is the end product of retinol metabolism. to get retinoic acid from retinol you need 5 steps and these steps include Zinc, NAD, B6 etc. so if you feed accutane, body lowers Zinc NAD, etc. You can eat liver no problem.

NAD ribose, active B6, Zinc, Magnesium molybdenum plus active b2 would be my stack for the symptoms."

Orion is quoting gbolduev there.

 

[Amazoniac]

The justification given for people to receive additional stress hormones in stressful situations is (at least in theory) to spare the body from using its own. I can understand how taking an active nutrient can cause harm, but I never understood how the same thing could decrease the other nutrients involved in making it active, in other words.. kill cofactors. The only way I can think of is by impairing an organ that metabolizes them, but this should be from an improper dose.

 

[Dante]

but I never understood how the same thing could decrease the other nutrients involved in making it active, in other words.. kill cofactors. The only way I can think of is by impairing an organ that metabolizes them, but this should be from an improper dose.

I thought he said the cofactors are lost in urine

 

[Amazoniac]

I thought he said the cofactors are lost in urine

Do you remember why? Opened anesthesiology book , it wasn't there

 

[Tarmander]

Do you remember why? Opened anesthesiology book , it wasn't there

Looll savage

 

[LambdaAlpha]

Can someone please try to explain to me why Magnesium, out of all the suppliments...is giving me gyno. Like wtf...literally the most beneficial suppliment and i can't even take it without worrying about my nips going accutane tier again. Never have I heard of this side effect from mag (save ONE forum I saw with a guy who had similiar sides)

 

[nbznj]

I do not have labs...but i got bloodwork a couple of months ago and my male hormones were "extremely high". Which is weird...msybe accutane does more than hormonal damage.

I'd bet a lot that your SHBG is very high. Did you get this tested?

It's a shame most dermatologists only test for AST/ALT. Look at what accutane does to the body - all parameters go in the wrong direction.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...e_Patients/links/0fcfd5112e7f058063000000.pdf

 

[Palpatine]

I'd bet a lot that your SHBG is very high. Did you get this tested?

It's a shame most dermatologists only test for AST/ALT. Look at what accutane does to the body - all parameters go in the wrong direction.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...e_Patients/links/0fcfd5112e7f058063000000.pdf

Interesting that you mention SHBG. I've only ever tested when I was either on a keto-type diet... or, last time not keto but calorie restricted to a degree (appx. 2000 calories a day, I was 5'8" 155), maybe slightly overtraining... and my SHBG is always high. Top of... or above ref range.

My androgens, total T and DHT, were good. 728 and 81 respectively. I don't recall the exact ref ranges but the DHT was at the top of the range. My free T, due to my high SHBG, was on the lower side of the reference range. Low Estradiol and Cortisol also (when I say low, I mean bottom of ref range).

I'm 45 now... but took 2 courses of Accutane in my early 20's... totally jacked me up, ED and who knows what else. Mostly fine right now... currently taking Gelatin in my coffee, d3 (4000iu), k2(mk4) 15mg, zinc 30mg, mag 600mg, and just started about 15 mg of dhea, spread out in 5mg intervals through 3pm. Feel pretty good and could lose about 10 pounds to be super lean... but don't want to go on calorie restriction again. I'll probably have another hormone panel done... really curious about that SHBG while I'm working out smart and not restricting calories.

No way to rewind the clock, but I wonder if it's possible to ever fully recover?!?

 

[LambdaAlpha]

I'd bet a lot that your SHBG is very high. Did you get this tested?

It's a shame most dermatologists only test for AST/ALT. Look at what accutane does to the body - all parameters go in the wrong direction.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...e_Patients/links/0fcfd5112e7f058063000000.pdf

Hmm. I'll check on that.

 

[LambdaAlpha]

Interesting that you mention SHBG. I've only ever tested when I was either on a keto-type diet... or, last time not keto but calorie restricted to a degree (appx. 2000 calories a day, I was 5'8" 155), maybe slightly overtraining... and my SHBG is always high. Top of... or above ref range.

My androgens, total T and DHT, were good. 728 and 81 respectively. I don't recall the exact ref ranges but the DHT was at the top of the range. My free T, due to my high SHBG, was on the lower side of the reference range. Low Estradiol and Cortisol also (when I say low, I mean bottom of ref range).

I'm 45 now... but took 2 courses of Accutane in my early 20's... totally jacked me up, ED and who knows what else. Mostly fine right now... currently taking Gelatin in my coffee, d3 (4000iu), k2(mk4) 15mg, zinc 30mg, mag 600mg, and just started about 15 mg of dhea, spread out in 5mg intervals through 3pm. Feel pretty good and could lose about 10 pounds to be super lean... but don't want to go on calorie restriction again. I'll probably have another hormone panel done... really curious about that SHBG while I'm working out smart and not restricting calories.

No way to rewind the clock, but I wonder if it's possible to ever fully recover?!?

Lol lucky you. Mag gives me gyno

 

[Constatine]

Sounds like your body is very sensitive to things that have a progesterone like effect. In general retinoids are antagonistic to androgen receptors (though this doesn't always translate to a net anti-androgenic effect, vitamin A is very important for testosterone production), but with accutane this effect seems to be enhanced. This is a similar situation as with FIN, where due to crazy progesterone activity tissues just lose their ability to respond to androgens. This is why you respond poorly to vitamin E, it is anti-androgenic in the tissues due to progesterone like activity. Do you do well with coffee? It does have some fairly strong progesterone promoting activity but it also is androgenic to tissues in studies: Chronic caffeine intake increases androgenic stimuli, epithelial cell proliferation and hyperplasia in rat ventral prostate. - PubMed - NCBI. Vitamin D interacts closely with the androgen receptor and seems to promote androgenic activity in some tissues but not others. Zinc actually increases androgen receptors under some conditions but dramatically decreases them in others. You should really start taking vitamin K as it seems very important to androgen receptor function (as warfarin inhibits the transcriptional activity of the androgen receptor) I think the overall goal in recovery would be restoring androgen receptors and general androgen responsiveness in your tissues. Though IBS will definitely get in the way of progress. I think a good solution would be to start taking DHT, vitamin D (as you already do), vitamin K, Sorghum, and temporary abstinence (this is a weird one but it seems to have a positive effect on androgenic activity in the body) . Your blood androgens being extremely high could be due to very low tissue absorption, hence they just float around in your blood. DHT will upregulate the androgen receptor over time. You can also try ashwagandha as it seems to be very androgenic (though it might interact negatively with IBS). Finally short term fasting (like a 24 hour fast once a week or every 2 weeks) can have positive effects on androgen receptors as well.

Here is a study on accutane's effects on skin androgen receptors...it is likely the reason your skin gets dry: Effect of oral isotretinoin treatment on skin androgen receptor levels in male acneic patients. - PubMed - NCBI. Notice you feel better when your skin is oily, this is when you have better androgenic activity in your body.

 

[LambdaAlpha]

Sounds like your body is very sensitive to things that have a progesterone like effect. In general retinoids are antagonistic to androgen receptors (though this doesn't always translate to a net anti-androgenic effect, vitamin A is very important for testosterone production), but with accutane this effect seems to be enhanced. This is a similar situation as with FIN, where due to crazy progesterone activity tissues just lose their ability to respond to androgens. This is why you respond poorly to vitamin E, it is anti-androgenic in the tissues due to progesterone like activity. Do you do well with coffee? It does have some fairly strong progesterone promoting activity but it also is androgenic to tissues in studies: Chronic caffeine intake increases androgenic stimuli, epithelial cell proliferation and hyperplasia in rat ventral prostate. - PubMed - NCBI. Vitamin D interacts closely with the androgen receptor and seems to promote androgenic activity in some tissues but not others. Zinc actually increases androgen receptors under some conditions but dramatically decreases them in others. You should really start taking vitamin K as it seems very important to androgen receptor function (as warfarin inhibits the transcriptional activity of the androgen receptor) I think the overall goal in recovery would be restoring androgen receptors and general androgen responsiveness in your tissues. Though IBS will definitely get in the way of progress. I think a good solution would be to start taking DHT, vitamin D (as you already do), vitamin K, Sorghum, and temporary abstinence (this is a weird one but it seems to have a positive effect on androgenic activity in the body) . Your blood androgens being extremely high could be due to very low tissue absorption, hence they just float around in your blood. DHT will upregulate the androgen receptor over time. You can also try ashwagandha as it seems to be very androgenic (though it might interact negatively with IBS). Finally short term fasting (like a 24 hour fast once a week or every 2 weeks) can have positive effects on androgen receptors as well.

Here is a study on accutane's effects on skin androgen receptors...it is likely the reason your skin gets dry: Effect of oral isotretinoin treatment on skin androgen receptor levels in male acneic patients. - PubMed - NCBI. Notice you feel better when your skin is oily, this is when you have better androgenic activity in your body.

Wow, thanks for the detailed response. You answered most of the questions I had about recovery from accutane. A few things too add, what form of vitamin k shoud I suppliment and what do you think the reason is that magnesium makes my gyno resurgent? It makes my libido better and gives me a generally better feeling, the ONLY negative is my gyno starts again. Is it the citrate perhaps?

 

[Constatine]

Wow, thanks for the detailed response. You answered most of the questions I had about recovery from accutane. A few things too add, what form of vitamin k shoud I suppliment and what do you think the reason is that magnesium makes my gyno resurgent? It makes my libido better and gives me a generally better feeling, the ONLY negative is my gyno starts again. Is it the citrate perhaps?

I think mk-4 is the best version of vitamin k. With magnesium I would try a magnesium chloride bath and see if you still get the symptoms. If you have IBS pills and especially mineral pills might be hard on your stomach and end up creating endotoxin and shifting the balance towards estrogen and related hormones. Even pill capsules might create quite a bit of endotoxin.