Post accutane small bone structure

[Cooper]

Isotretinoin and FoxO1: A scientific hypothesis

Oral isotretinoin (13-cis retinoic acid) is the most effective drug in the treatment of acne and restores all major pathogenetic factors of acne vulgaris. isotretinoin is regarded as a prodrug which after isomerizisation to all-trans-retinoic acid (ATRA) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Moreover, like an amplification loop, AR receptor signaling increased IGF-1-expression and IGF-1/IGF-1 receptor (IGF1R)-signaling in the ventral prostate gland.35 Oral isotretinoin treatment has recently been shown to decrease serum IGF-1 levels,36 which may decrease AR-mediated gene expression. Furthermore, decreased AR protein levels have been observed in skin of male acne patients after oral isotretinoin treatment.37 These data imply that isotretinoin treatment may downregulate the transcriptional activity of AR by increasing the nuclear concentration of the AR cosuppressor FoxO1. Furthermore, the isotretinoin-induced decrease of IGF-1 serum levels may impair IGF-1/PI3K/Akt-mediated nuclear export of FoxO1. Moreover, IGF-1 is regarded as an androgen-dependent stimulator of 5α-reductase activity.38 In fact, experimental evidence has been provided for decreased androgen 5α-reduction in skin and liver of men with severe acne after oral isotretnoin treatment.

As bitter as this sounds, i don't think this study holds some truth. My uncle for example, is the tallest guy in our whole family tree and he took also Accutane when he was in HS. I mean, who knows at the end but for me for example...

I don't think 3 doses of Tane damaged my IGF-1 expression on a epigenetic level... Although i have permanent sexual side effects from it... The androgen receptor downregulation part holds some truth, i just hope it was tissue spesific rather than systemic, like prostate, since i still have a high libido and can build muscle...

 

[redsun]

My body does not respond to androgens.

What do you mean by this?

What have you tried to remedy this?

 

[Cooper]

What do you mean by this?

What have you tried to remedy this?

Advice for PCT? (Post Accutane Syndrome)

I’m currently a PAS suffer as well. Took accutane twice (age 16 and now age 20). Currently suffering the hormonal impact it has for approx. 6 months now. Utilized a PCT of HCG + HMG and clomid; it’s success only lasted 1.5 months later then diminished. I’m currently looking to start TRT; since...

forums.t-nation.com

TLDR: Anything you can imagine. And im on TRT right now.

 

[Kram]

Do you guys both have Post Accutane Syndrome? Or just didn't grew after Accutane. I thought early epipehyseal bone closure was a rare side effect on high doses?

I have PAS since 16, my prostate's genetic makeup has been changed by this poison. My body does not respond to androgens.

I did two cycles of the highest dose when I was 18 and 19 for 6 months each time (I'm 34 now). I'm normal height/weight (6' 200 lbs) but it definitely messed up aspects of my bone structure, androgen receptors & DHT, and overall development. Especially when I compare myself to my dad, uncles, brother etc.

I have had pretty terrible fatigue, moodiness/depression, adhd ever since I took it. I never even knew there were side effects until I started researching health in 2016 as I could barely even function as a person anymore. It explains a lot.

My hormones are decent now but still feel like crap most days and also don't typically respond to androgens or supplements.

 

[Cooper]

I did two cycles of the highest dose when I was 18 and 19 for 6 months each time (I'm 34 now). I'm normal height/weight (6' 200 lbs) but it definitely messed up aspects of my bone structure, androgen receptors & DHT, and overall development. Especially when I compare myself to my dad, uncles, brother etc.

I have had pretty terrible fatigue, moodiness/depression, adhd ever since I took it. I never even knew there were side effects until I started researching health in 2016 as I could barely even function as a person anymore. It explains a lot.

My hormones are decent now but still feel like crap most days and also don't typically respond to androgens or supplements.

What sort of androgens have you tried?

Also what you mean it did something to your bone structure? How and what are you comparing? Why do you think it messed up with your androgen receptors? What is your IGF-1 and Free T levels?

What you mean by it messed up your overall development?

What feature do you think is missing on you in compare to your family? Thanks.

 

[Kram]

What sort of androgens have you tried?

Also what you mean it did something to your bone structure? How and what are you comparing? Why do you think it messed up with your androgen receptors? What is your IGF-1 and Free T levels?

What you mean by it messed up your overall development?

What feature do you think is missing on you in compare to your family? Thanks.

Test base & propionate (all sorts of doses, application routes, solvents) - I only felt something from it a few times. Have also tried preg, prog, DHEA, 11 Keto DHT, androsterone etc.

I had IGF-1 tested this year and it was 156 ng/ml, which is pretty low. But this was 14 years after accutane so no idea if it is just from that. Free T is 15 pg/ml. Total T has been above 700 as long as I am eating right.

It definitely messed up my wrist size and forearm development, and probably most of my other bones as well.

My dad, brother and uncles all have extremely heavy beards, thick wrists, really deep voices (mine isn't as deep), thick, healthy skin and just appear a lot more masculine than me. I also ate terribly growing up and had tons of stress in my 20s so it probably wasn't all Accutane.

 

[Cooper]

Test base & propionate (all sorts of doses, application routes, solvents) - I only felt something from it a few times. Have also tried preg, prog, DHEA, 11 Keto DHT, androsterone etc.

I had IGF-1 tested this year and it was 156 ng/ml, which is pretty low. But this was 14 years after accutane so no idea if it is just from that. Free T is 15 pg/ml. Total T has been above 700 as long as I am eating right.

It definitely messed up my wrist size and forearm development, and probably most of my other bones as well.

My dad, brother and uncles all have extremely heavy beards, thick wrists, really deep voices (mine isn't as deep), thick, healthy skin and just appear a lot more masculine than me. I also ate terribly growing up and had tons of stress in my 20s so it probably wasn't all Accutane.

I wouldn't say that IGF-1 is low for your age. Table 2 from Reference intervals for insulin-like growth factor-1 (igf-i) from birth to senescence: results from a multicenter study using a new automated chemiluminescence IGF-I immunoassay conforming to recent international recommendations. | Semantic Scholar

It definitely messed up my wrist size and forearm development, and probably most of my other bones as well.

So did you measure your brothers wrist size and yours and compared the girth of it? It could all be in your head or that this was your genetics. You took accutane at the age of 18, your wrist bone was already developed nearly fully at that age. Can't find studies but i don't think wrists grow more with age. And just because you think your wrists are thinner than your family members, it is not a good idea to conclude that your other bodily parts are affected too.

Im a victim of Accutane and i had same concerns and logical assumptions about my development, but i think we sometimes trick ourselves, to see the negatives.
What is your height? Are you at the same height as your family members? Did you grow after taking Tane? If yes, it is unlikely it affected your growth. 1 inch of difference is generally expected within healthy members.

My dad, brother and uncles all have extremely heavy beards, thick wrists, really deep voices (mine isn't as deep),

Are you sure yours isn't that deep? Maybe you perceive that way? Sir, voice deepening does not usually improve more after the age of 18. Did you ask them about your voice? Maybe you sound more like your mother's brother side?

a lot more masculine than me.

Can you please describe and elaborate on this, what makes you think that?

Btw, why did you take androgens in the first place? Do you have any sexual symptoms like me?

 

[Kram]

So did you measure your brothers wrist size and yours and compared the girth of it? It could all be in your head or that this was your genetics. You took accutane at the age of 18, your wrist bone was already developed nearly fully at that age. Can't find studies but i don't think wrists grow more with age. And just because you think your wrists are thinner than your family members, it is not a good idea to conclude that your other bodily parts are affected too.

Ha no I did not measure my brother's wrists. My wrists are about the same size as my mom (she is 5'3'') and my sister. It's pretty easy to tell by looking at them. My dad and brothers wrists are at least 1.5x larger than mine. I can't even wear most watches. Pretty sure it's from accutane vs. genetics.

My voice is deep but nothing compared to my dad and brother. I was also a late bloomer and took accutane when I was early on in my growth spurt.

Again, hormones were screwed up from nutrition and stress as well.

 

[Cooper]

Ha no I did not measure my brother's wrists. My wrists are about the same size as my mom (she is 5'3'') and my sister. It's pretty easy to tell by looking at them. My dad and brothers wrists are at least 1.5x larger than mine. I can't even wear most watches. Pretty sure it's from accutane vs. genetics.

My voice is deep but nothing compared to my dad and brother. I was also a late bloomer and took accutane when I was early on in my growth spurt.

Again, hormones were screwed up from nutrition and stress as well.

I see, so it must be your genes, if your wrist is that thin as your mom's. I once measured my hand length with my uncle and it was exactly the same. And im 2,3 cm's taller than him. How late was your puberty? How is your bone structure compared to your brothers, how about brow ridges? Jaw size and shape? From side profile you can see the brow ridge.

Did your height grow after Tane? Are your bros and dad also around 6'ft tall? Or more?

Did you ever do a DEXA bone mineral density test? Oh god, pls say yes.


One more thing, if it is not personal, did your (erect) penis continue to develop after Accutane?

Sorry for lots of questions.

 

[TheSir]

Do you guys both have Post Accutane Syndrome?

I don't think so. If there are any lingering symptoms, they take the form of background level of anhedonia, add and anxiety. Most likely these have other causes. It's almost 15 years since my last dose.

I thought early epipehyseal bone closure was a rare side effect on high doses?

From what I understand the main issue is not plate closure but a potentially persistent suppression of growth hormone.

Did you have any sexual symtpoms related to Accutane?

I recall I was masturbating once a day before, during and after the treatment with no discernible differences between any of them.

Did you ever measure your IGF- 1 levels? Testosterone levels?

No.

What you mean by ''small jaw''?

Small relative to the neurocranium. As for wrists, small relative to the hands and the rest of the frame.

Did you compare your chest size and shoulder span with your dad?

Not meticulously enough to give an acceptable answer.

I mean if you are short, the size of your skeleteal structure grow according to that, no short guy has a huge skull with a big jaw. Growth must be proportional.

You may be underestimating how much the individual bodily dimensions can deviate from what are considered to be standardized proportions, even within the same body. Consider this:

- my skeletal frame has the width of a large man.
- when sitting on a chair my eyes are at the same level with men who're half a foot taller than me, implying disproportionate shortness of legs
- the height of an average person is their skull height multiplied by 7.5.. For me the multiplier is ~6.
- my wingspan is a couple of inches greater than my height (the ideal is identical)..

Btw, why do you think you have IGF-1 issues, do you think Tane permanently damaged your IGF-1?

It was just what I inferred from the seeming growth abnormalities and other symptoms which I experienced during dosing, such as dry skin and depression. Since those went away, I doubt this was permanent either.

I took Accutane only for 3 DAYS. And it damaged my prostate, lowered semen volume, i quit and the things got worse over the years, to this day i have no idea if it affected my development, height, bone growth overall and the other things you might worry about.

Sorry to hear, it must be indescribably frustrating to suffer so greatly from what was nearly non-existent use of medicine. I recall someone raving about how much liver flushes had helped him in overcoming PAS. Diving into the gut biome rabbit hole might be another worthwhile pursuit. The liver and the gut should be your main suspects, as far as figuring out the potential victims of your brief Accutane episode goes. It's hard to see mere three days of use being able to harm anything else in your body. Issues with either of these organs have a wide range of potential symptoms both mental and physical.

 

[Cooper]

Thanks for these informations!!

Yeah i heard about liver flushes, i may try it. Honestly after Accutane i just get into melancholic stuff even though it didn't alter my brain. I started drinking, from 16, every weekend. I do not remember giving a single 2 week break from it. But some of my friends are also like me, although they now say they were sometimes making 3- 4 weeks of breaks. I regret it but i doubt it damaged my height and whatnot. Maybe just 1- 2cm's.

IGF-1 is produced in the liver but i just have read 3 articles about genetically altered mice's and they grew up normally to controls, but they combined two mutations and then they started to grow less, so like, there is a threshold of damage, once you pass it, it starts to affect your growth... Besides that, i don't think weekend alcohol consumption has that much of an drastic effect on IGF-1 levels, it is known alcoholics have low levels of it (still within range) but they are chronic consumers.

Liver-derived insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) is the principal source of IGF-I in blood but is not required for postnatal body growth in mice - PubMed

The body growth of animals is regulated by growth hormone and IGF-I. The classical theory of this regulation is that most IGF-I in the blood originates in the liver and that body growth is controlled by the concentration of IGF-I in the blood. We have abolished IGF-I production in the livers of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anyways, i still have acne, other PAS cases present thick beards with normally developed masculine features, one guy even had a HUGE brow ridge, i saw his photos and claim they have a normal deep voice. I am on TRT right now and my voice has deepened! But my sexual symptoms persist, we will see. I am just a lab rat for years trying various protocols on myself to get fixed.


I just measured my skull it is either 23 or 24 cm, hard to measure when you are alone in home! 24 cmx 7.5 makes 180, exactly my height.

is not plate closure but a potentially persistent suppression of growth hormone.

If your dry skin etc. went away, i think you answered your own concern? If you can provide studies or logically followed up theories about how this could have happened, im eager to hear, i always seek the truth.
I do not think your growth and body related issues has to do something with Accutane. What is your height? What is your dad's height? At what age you took Tane?

rom what I understand the main issue is not plate closure but a potentially persistent suppression of growth hormone.

Can you please expand your theories more on this idea? I do know Accutane lowers IGF-1 and GH. But it is mostly temporary, at least i hope. Severe PAS cases present normal IGF-1 levels in serum, including me.

Isotretinoin and FoxO1 Take a look on this study. How Foxo1 upregulation downregulates IGF-1 expression and AR expression. But i don't think 3 doses of it can cause this, even so, this study is just theory, not a concrete fact. Do you think 3 doses may have caused this on me? Damn?! Maybe (The traumatic person starts to take control of the wheel now.) i suppose to have more thick jaw, maybe a better brow ridge, more bon-y like structure on my face? Im not sure. My genetics are pretty similar to my dad's side of family.

I believe i had a weak gene on my prostate tissue and somehow tissue spesifically Accutane altered the AR gene expression there, and i believe it downregulated it. I am thinking to try Bicalutamide to antagonize the ARs there to force them to Upregulate back if my TRT protocol fails.

Thanks a lot for your empathy and understanding, it is sad really sad, i do have a really hard time dealing with this, last winter i was going to kill myself after my protocols failed to work. I have zero sensation when i have sex, my penis shrank due to prostate nerve issues. I live with obsessions and WHAT IF's due to trauma at 16.

Diving into the gut biome rabbit hole might be another worthwhile pursuit. The liver and the gut should be your main suspects,

Thank you, can you please show me some sort of a direction for this? I remember i had excessive gas after quitting Tane. It lasted like a month or two and then passed away. Wow. But i don't think i have gut symptoms or abnormal liver enzymes on paper.

How can i adress my liver and gut? Probiotics and liver flushes? I take Sodium Butyrate, highest quality daily etc.

Btw, my acne didn't resolve at all after my PAS. So i assume my IGF-1 or ARs on my other tissues must be fine?

Thanks.

 

[TheSir]

Honestly after Accutane i just get into melancholic stuff even though it didn't alter my brain.

Yeah I too had my first taste of nihilism and depression while on Accutane. I think it made me less assertive and more reserved too. Before this I had adopted the role of a class alpha in school. Later on I only hanged out with a small circle of friends. This could have other explanations too though.

Besides that, i don't think weekend alcohol consumption has that much of an drastic effect on IGF-1 levels

Agree.

I do not think your growth and body related issues has to do something with Accutane. What is your height? What is your dad's height? At what age you took Tane?

I think I answered these earlier, but to recap: I am 5'7/170cm, my father is 5'10/178cm, and I was "supposed" to reach 6 foot/182cm. I reached 5'7 at the age of 13-14 and began Accutane soon after. I did not grow further after that.

Can you please expand your theories more on this idea? I do know Accutane lowers IGF-1 and GH. But it is mostly temporary, at least i hope.

It's not really even a theory, just a suspicion. We know that Accutane can lower IGF-1. What is less clear is how long it takes for IGF-1 production to recover to normal levels after cessation of use. For example, after quitting chronic use of an intoxicant/drug it can take up to 1-2 years until neurotransmitter activity has normalized. If the same applies to growth hormone during puberty, this would translate to a significantly reduced window for growth.

Do you think 3 doses may have caused this on me?

It's very unlikely, but not necessary impossible. I have heard of cases where just a couple of doses of benzodiazepines have led to physical dependency that took years to resolve. For some unlucky individuals, certain substances lead to immediate compensatory changes in brain structure.

Thank you, can you please show me some sort of a direction for this?

Well it's a vast topic and there are many approaches, but one thing you could look into is the milk diet, which you can read more about here: The Milk Diet

How can i adress my liver and gut? Probiotics and liver flushes?

Look into Andrea Moritz liver flush.

 

[Vajra]

Accutane didn't really wreck me. I took it for about 8 months at age 17. If I recall correctly, I went from 20 to 30 to 40mg. I think I took 50 or 60 for a week or 2 and it made me quite lethargic and irritable, and went back down to like 30. The 8 month mark was during the mass hysteria, so I couldn't go to the dermatologist and get anymore for some reason, and my 'cycle' was cut short (certainly for the better).
The potential side effects I was aware of at the time were mostly just psychological conditions and physical weakness. Can't say I felt anything specific for lifting, or anything psychological, until the dose got to >40mg (or at that dose; can't remember). As far as libido goes, I had been and continued to be on nofap the whole time, so I didn't keep track of that, but I don't think it was that bad.
I get like 85% less acne ~2.2 years later than back before I took it.
I suspect it effected my liver negatively for a cascade of reasons, and of course I worry if it affected my growth, or maybe affected my hair negatively.

 

[Cooper]

Accutane didn't really wreck me. I took it for about 8 months at age 17. If I recall correctly, I went from 20 to 30 to 40mg. I think I took 50 or 60 for a week or 2 and it made me quite lethargic and irritable, and went back down to like 30. The 8 month mark was during the mass hysteria, so I couldn't go to the dermatologist and get anymore for some reason, and my 'cycle' was cut short (certainly for the better).
The potential side effects I was aware of at the time were mostly just psychological conditions and physical weakness. Can't say I felt anything specific for lifting, or anything psychological, until the dose got to >40mg (or at that dose; can't remember). As far as libido goes, I had been and continued to be on nofap the whole time, so I didn't keep track of that, but I don't think it was that bad.
I get like 85% less acne ~2.2 years later than back before I took it.
I suspect it effected my liver negatively for a cascade of reasons, and of course I worry if it affected my growth, or maybe affected my hair negatively.

Anything out of ordinary about your growth?

- Did you grow height after Tane? How much? Are you close to your family members regarding height?

- Did your facial bone structure similar to your genetic pool? (Jaw shape, jawline, wideness, cheekbone prominence, brow ridge.)

- Did your shoulder bones continue to widen? (It grows almost 2cm's between the age of 16 and 25. On EACH side.)

- Did your voice deepened after Tane? Like more manly and similar to dad's?

Anything else you want to add?

 

[Vajra]

Anything out of ordinary about your growth?

- Did you grow height after Tane? How much? Are you close to your family members regarding height?

- Did your facial bone structure similar to your genetic pool? (Jaw shape, jawline, wideness, cheekbone prominence, brow ridge.)

- Did your shoulder bones continue to widen? (It grows almost 2cm's between the age of 16 and 25. On EACH side.)

- Did your voice deepened after Tane? Like more manly and similar to dad's?

Anything else you want to add?

None of the above.

 

[Cooper]

None of the above.

What you mean? You didn't grow at all after using Accutane????!

 

[Vajra]

What you mean? You didn't grow at all after using Accutane????!

Well, I was 17. But I don't think I've grown anywhere - nope.

 

[Cooper]

Are you similar to your

Well, I was 17. But I don't think I've grown anywhere - nope.

Are you similar to your family members regarding height? Any changes? Maybe you grew half an inch or smth and didn't realize and it was your normal genetic plan in the end?